Van's Air Force
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Building a vans from scratch
- Thread starter mckes
- Start date
Jamie Aust
Well Known Member
mckes said:
I don think you can get full size plans without getting it with a sub kit. You can get the Pre-View plans from them no problem.
Why would you want to build from scratch, to save time or money ? I dont think you could better the vans kits, they are very good and complete.
jsharkey
Well Known Member
You can with the old RV6 plans. They are hand drawn by Van himself and detail all the materials and dimensions for the piece parts. The slick new RV7 plans are CAD drawn but only tell you how to assemble the parts supplied in the kit, not how to make them. The general consensus however is that the kits are still a good deal compared to going out and buying all the parts and materials individually.mckes said:
Jim Sharkey
kevinsky18
Well Known Member
I honestly don't think you would save much by building from scratch. Van's has the economy of numbers to help him keep his kit prices cheap. I think the price is now around 18K for a full slow build kit including the finishing. Hard to go wrong for that.
And with 3-5 years being normal completion time for a slow build I would imagine close to 10 yrs from scratch.
In short, I wouldn't recommend it. If you want to build from scratch there are probably more suitable kits.
And with 3-5 years being normal completion time for a slow build I would imagine close to 10 yrs from scratch.
In short, I wouldn't recommend it. If you want to build from scratch there are probably more suitable kits.
Rosie
Well Known Member
One answer could be cost JayJaypratt said:
I have a friend in Switzerland (Toni Baumgartner) who has been building an RV-4 for at least 15 years that I know of. He built both empennage and wings from plans as it was to much $$$ to have those kits shipped to his home. He had access to equipment at work that allowed him to build wing ribs and other parts. As he neared retirement, he went ahead and ordered the fuselage kit from Van's as he'd like to fly the plane he's building sometime during his lifetime
RosieCraig Coffin
I'm New Here
Scratch building
I'm building a 4 from scratch. You can buy the plans and there is enough information to form most if not all the parts. I believe the 3 is the same. From the 6 on Van's did not include enough info. I'm also helping a friend build a 9 and it would be very difficult unless you had someone that was building a kit so you could get the dimensions from their parts. Good luck!, so far I have been very impressed with the Van's designs and everyone I spoke to that has flown them has nothing but good to say. If you're new to the building process, hook up with someone that is. I'm learning an incredible amount about what it takes to build these planes by helping with my friends RV-9. Also, as a basic, you will need a band saw and a way to bend sheet. You can also look on the internet for ways of making the forming blocks. I also think that the Canadian distributor of the Zodiac plans has a video on scratch building. Check out my post in February/March timeframe to see what was posted to my same question. I also called Scott Rison at Van's, he has built a 4 and is very knowledgable about what it will take from scratch.
Craig
I'm building a 4 from scratch. You can buy the plans and there is enough information to form most if not all the parts. I believe the 3 is the same. From the 6 on Van's did not include enough info. I'm also helping a friend build a 9 and it would be very difficult unless you had someone that was building a kit so you could get the dimensions from their parts. Good luck!, so far I have been very impressed with the Van's designs and everyone I spoke to that has flown them has nothing but good to say. If you're new to the building process, hook up with someone that is. I'm learning an incredible amount about what it takes to build these planes by helping with my friends RV-9. Also, as a basic, you will need a band saw and a way to bend sheet. You can also look on the internet for ways of making the forming blocks. I also think that the Canadian distributor of the Zodiac plans has a video on scratch building. Check out my post in February/March timeframe to see what was posted to my same question. I also called Scott Rison at Van's, he has built a 4 and is very knowledgable about what it will take from scratch.
Craig
LettersFromFlyoverCountry
Well Known Member
Are you SURE you folks are builders?
Why would anyone try to build from plans? I would think the answer is obvious: To try to do it.
It's EXPERIMENTAL aviation, which includes experimenting with ourselves, to see if we're up to the challenge, to see if we can marshall our resources and patience and accomplish something many people think is impossible.
There's more to building an airplane than just taking the fast route to building an airplane. Having a challenge and meeting a challenge is a big part of it.
I think it's a heck of a question.
Why would anyone try to build from plans? I would think the answer is obvious: To try to do it.
It's EXPERIMENTAL aviation, which includes experimenting with ourselves, to see if we're up to the challenge, to see if we can marshall our resources and patience and accomplish something many people think is impossible.
There's more to building an airplane than just taking the fast route to building an airplane. Having a challenge and meeting a challenge is a big part of it.
I think it's a heck of a question.
One big reason to build from plans is that you are not locked in to pre-punched holes, etc. If you want your air vent in a different place, you put it there. Another small thing is the gapping notches for the elevator hinges. You won't find them on my -6 unless you lay down and look up. They're only on the bottom.
On my bi-plane, I have shortened the nose 6", lengthened the tail 2", moved the rear cockpit back 4", moved the front cockpit back 2", redesigned the trim tab, etc. Can't do that very easily with a pre-punched kit.
On my bi-plane, I have shortened the nose 6", lengthened the tail 2", moved the rear cockpit back 4", moved the front cockpit back 2", redesigned the trim tab, etc. Can't do that very easily with a pre-punched kit.
bsacks05
Well Known Member
I want to build another plane.....but from plans only.
I used to order plans to build many RC planes and had a good time doing it.
Perhaps I feel guilty that the standard build -9 was too easy with all the hard stuff done for you. I wouldn't want to try an RV from scratch, though.
Currently, I am seriously considering a Hatz Biplane project. Build up each rib....yeah. Learn to weld also. It would take forever but now that I have a flying plane, what's the hurry?
I used to order plans to build many RC planes and had a good time doing it.
Perhaps I feel guilty that the standard build -9 was too easy with all the hard stuff done for you. I wouldn't want to try an RV from scratch, though.
Currently, I am seriously considering a Hatz Biplane project. Build up each rib....yeah. Learn to weld also. It would take forever but now that I have a flying plane, what's the hurry?
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Ah, The good old days!
My -6 was number 560 (1989), but the kit hadn't changed from the beginning. Most of the plans were still "updated" RV-4 plans. We had to cut ALL lightening holes in the ribs, in the bulkheads, etc. Not a single pre-punched hole anywhere. And the plans ended at the firewall. No nose wheel, sliding canopy or quick-build was offered. Not that I would have done any of those if they were.
My -6 was number 560 (1989), but the kit hadn't changed from the beginning. Most of the plans were still "updated" RV-4 plans. We had to cut ALL lightening holes in the ribs, in the bulkheads, etc. Not a single pre-punched hole anywhere. And the plans ended at the firewall. No nose wheel, sliding canopy or quick-build was offered. Not that I would have done any of those if they were.
thanks for your replys I was mainly interested in building from plans for the various reasons some of you said. It is not for saving money as it will probably cost more than if I were to buy the kit. My reasons are Shippping and associated costs with the shipping from US. I would like to build from plans due to the satisfaction when seeing the final product. There is no hurry for me to be flying or operating my own aircraft as yet as I do not wish to fly experimentals with less than 500hours meaning I still have another 470hours to go !! . Building from plans lets me just buy what I need, start were I want and just go along and work on it whenever I want. The other valid point is modifications. I already have some mods i would like to do on the aircraft that a kit would not alow or it would be wasting money. Just some of the reasons. Atm I am looking at the Harmon Rocket I am ver interested in the talk of the "lite" version should be interesting.
Also i have ordered the video on scratch built metal aircraft The one from homebuilt help.
. Building from plans lets me just buy what I need, start were I want and just go along and work on it whenever I want. The other valid point is modifications. I already have some mods i would like to do on the aircraft that a kit would not alow or it would be wasting money. Just some of the reasons. Atm I am looking at the Harmon Rocket I am ver interested in the talk of the "lite" version should be interesting. Also i have ordered the video on scratch built metal aircraft The one from homebuilt help.
pierre smith
Well Known Member
Definitely......
I too, built many balsa model airplanes with each rib cut out individually. As a young man fresh out of the Army in 1969, I tackled a Cassutt project from scratch. With each piece of each rib cut and pressed into the rib jig, then glued and nailed, it was an incredibly satisfying experience. Learning to weld chromemoly with an oxy-acetylene torch took a few days but hey, I welded the motor mount and the whole fuselage! The EAA chapter 172 in Augusta Georgia was a tremendous help with all of their resources. I'd do it again. I often use those learned skills to weld up all sorts of stuff to this day.
Regards,
Pierre
bsacks05 said:
I too, built many balsa model airplanes with each rib cut out individually. As a young man fresh out of the Army in 1969, I tackled a Cassutt project from scratch. With each piece of each rib cut and pressed into the rib jig, then glued and nailed, it was an incredibly satisfying experience. Learning to weld chromemoly with an oxy-acetylene torch took a few days but hey, I welded the motor mount and the whole fuselage! The EAA chapter 172 in Augusta Georgia was a tremendous help with all of their resources. I'd do it again. I often use those learned skills to weld up all sorts of stuff to this day.
Regards,
Pierre
i admit that i hesitate to revive this thread as i understand the current situation is a very sensitive topic for many of us. but the main idea discussed in this thread many years ago could get a differnet importance and provide another perspective for at least some of us. so please don't flame me.
i built a standard RV7. at the beginning the entire task of making the airframe was basically inconceivably. after that... easy peasy (that's a bit exaggerated but you get the idea).
then i started a scratch build hummel ultracruiser that is now in the 90% done / 90% to go stage. this airplane is much smaller, slower etc. but the airframe technology is exactly the same. at the beginning scratch building was inconceivable for me, now ... easy peasy.
scratch building parts has it's pros and cons, major difference... it's much more labour. but with the hummel i figured that a major part of the work lies in these wooden templates. as soon you have them it's really not that bad anymore to make parts. things like skins, spars, ribs, bulkheads , basically every airframe part of an RV... it would really not be rocket sience. and once these templates are made they could circle around. and for parts like canopy one could go directly to the supplier.
what do you think? complete nonsense or walkable? you see any legal issues? maybe this could be a viable option for some here.
i built a standard RV7. at the beginning the entire task of making the airframe was basically inconceivably. after that... easy peasy (that's a bit exaggerated but you get the idea).
then i started a scratch build hummel ultracruiser that is now in the 90% done / 90% to go stage. this airplane is much smaller, slower etc. but the airframe technology is exactly the same. at the beginning scratch building was inconceivable for me, now ... easy peasy.
scratch building parts has it's pros and cons, major difference... it's much more labour. but with the hummel i figured that a major part of the work lies in these wooden templates. as soon you have them it's really not that bad anymore to make parts. things like skins, spars, ribs, bulkheads , basically every airframe part of an RV... it would really not be rocket sience. and once these templates are made they could circle around. and for parts like canopy one could go directly to the supplier.
what do you think? complete nonsense or walkable? you see any legal issues? maybe this could be a viable option for some here.
Dan 57
Well Known Member
It sure ain't rocket science... but a lot of "work", and way more than any of the modern pre-holed (gotta be careful on the denomination now) designs.
Building a -3/-4/-6 from plans only, aka scratch build, has been done, and still can be done.
But as you mention, the building of jigs of all kind, and for basically every part but the skins, takes a lot of work.
The expanding success of Van's has mainly been achieved thru the ease of build, which makes the assembly of say a -14 very much alike the table from the famed Swedish provider.
11'276 flying RVs are listed as of today on Van's homepage. Let's assume nil quick-built kits were ever available, or even more drastic, nil pre-holed kits... without those pre-built solutions, only a few hundred or a couple of thousand of them RVs would be flying now.
My guess is that only a handful of people would be ready to tackle a plans build for an RV today. The world keeps spinning faster every day
Dan, i agree. the majority will not consider that as an option. but maybe some. if i would have finished the tail, and working on the wings but fuse delivery is somewhat questionable, i would seriously look into that. we're not talking gold plated solutions here. and for the templates and jigs... heck, any carpentry could mass produce them.
but let's hope this entire thinking will become obsolete in not so far away future.
but let's hope this entire thinking will become obsolete in not so far away future.
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Building from scratch
In the 60's John Thorp wrote a series of articles for Sport Aviation on building the T18. Those articles would provide 90% of the information needed to built a 3,4 or 6 from scratch.
IIRC in the early days Vans only furnished raw undrilled parts for the RV4. The Phlogiston spars became available at some point, they were independent of Vans.
The information to fill any gaps for a built from scratch 4 or 6 is there, you just have to search for it.
There are a lot of similarities between early RV's and Thorp, Midget Mustang and others. SA also had an earlier series on building the MM I The concept of the wing spars is similar between the MM and early RV's
In the 60's John Thorp wrote a series of articles for Sport Aviation on building the T18. Those articles would provide 90% of the information needed to built a 3,4 or 6 from scratch.
IIRC in the early days Vans only furnished raw undrilled parts for the RV4. The Phlogiston spars became available at some point, they were independent of Vans.
The information to fill any gaps for a built from scratch 4 or 6 is there, you just have to search for it.
There are a lot of similarities between early RV's and Thorp, Midget Mustang and others. SA also had an earlier series on building the MM I The concept of the wing spars is similar between the MM and early RV's
gmcjetpilot
Well Known Member
Yes it was done in the RV3 / RV4 / RV6 days. Van gave you engineering blue prints. Not any more. You do not get blueprints, only builders plans. Could it be reverse engineered with a kit in hand. Yes. Why?
The one or two RV's that were in part made from raw materials, about 30 yrs ago, one of which featured in Van's RVator newsletter (the news letter was discontinued long ago). Not sure if they finished the project, but they bought raw materials and pounded out wing ribs, formed parts.
Even if you fabricated all the sheet metal parts, the highly technical parts, gear legs, engine mount, fiberglass parts, plexi canopy, on and on, i.e., finishing kit, you would buy. Wing spars use to be sheet metal with straps. You could buy materials and make a spar (at expense and time) without fancy machining. New RV's have special extrusions machined and anodized. Could people do this? I guess if you can buy that extrusion and have the ability to machine long spar caps.
Keep in mind forming ribs requires using aluminum in the HT in "oh" condition (soft heat treat) and heat treated after to bring it back to full strength. Kind of specialized stuff but it can be done. Van has tooling to stamp them out with great precision.
There were people who made Van knockoffs such as the Harmon Rocket and Team Rocket. Team Rocket took a RV4 and widened and stretched it, hanging a (I)O540 off the nose. Many parts were the same between RV4 and the ROCKETS, so people bought partial kits from Van's, deleted a bunch of parts that Team Rocket provided. Van I recall stopped selling to people doing that, so the TEAM ROCKET folks just started making the parts (using Van's blueprints).
I don't know how old you are but plans + raw material HOME BUILT planes have been around since the 30's. Way before my day. The 1930 Pietenpol Air Camper, featured in Popular Mechanics were planes built. Almost all homebuilt were plans built until 1970's. They are still around. You can buy plans and material kits from Aircraft Spruce. Many of these planes are wood, steel tube, fabric construction. Whitman Tailwind and many plans built planes are very good, but required more labor and welding skills. I read in the last year or two of people building plans + raw material planes like the Whitman Tailwind. It came out great and is a high performance plane. It actually gives RV's a run for the money but they are also not very forgiving, high wing loading and spectacular stall behavior. You tailwind pilots correct me if I am wrong. Not saying unsafe, just not the same as RV's.
1970's Rutan and the Vari Ez and Long Ez, made cutting foam with hot wire and fiberglass over the foam. Some parts kits available. Not a true prefabricated kit but half way between plans and full kit plane.
Then Van's in the 1970's, set a new standard at least for sheet metal kits. Not only in quality, compactness, prefabrication of kit, but great handling and performing plane for a bargain price. Van's early kits were more work than standard RV kits today, it was still a step above any metal plane kit at the time. The contemporary planes to the RV kit planes, were the Mustang II and Thorp T18. They were part plans built and some parts kits. Van was far more complete, but did not have pre-punched holes. I built an RV6. I know about laying out and drilling holes. The PRE PUNCH is far better.
If you built your own RV kit from raw materials you would have to do a lot of work. Somethings like gear legs, the average person can NOT make. You could weld up your own engine mount, but by the time you bought the dynafocal mount, tubes, cut and welded it... well just buy it. Again blue prints or CAD drawings are not published. If you weld up engine mount you need to make a JIG... for one engine mount that makes zero sense. Same for molds to make cowling, wingtips, and plexi glass molds, to make one is not worth the effort.
Some early Kit planes like the Christian Eagle set a high bench mark on kit completeness. It is a tandem aerobatic bi-plane. They produced a great product but were expensive. They even provided the box cutter on the outside to open the box. The fuselage was pre-welded. Many of the kit planes of the day featured "rag and tube" construction.
KITS where you got not only materials but all the parts pretty much ready to install, were NOT the norm until they 80's. Then kit planes with prefabricated parts and assemblies exploded in the 80's. Glasair, Lancair in the 1980's set the kit world on fire. Many followed. It would be hard to scratch build any of these as they required tooling, molds. Of course by the 1990's Van's upped the game with pre-punched kits.
If you want to raw material plan build a plane it would not be an RV. If you are worried about cost or availability, the KIT is the cheapest part is the build. Engine, Prop, Avionics, Paint (if you hire a pro) will be big ticket items. If you want a discount may be look for a kit bought and never started.
Frankly the cheapest way is buy an RV already flying. If you go with a fixed pitch RV4 VFR panel with a paint job that looks good at 50 feet, you are likely to get a good deal. If you want a tricked out all the bells and whistles show winner RV14, better have deep pockets. It will still might be cheaper than building it yourself. However BUILDING IS AWESOME... at least for me. Some people like building. However I would NEVER EVER do a plans built RAW material project. I admire the people who do.
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Dad's RV-10
Well Known Member
gmcjetpilot
Well Known Member
He's about 16 years older than when he asked the question.
Wow you are funny.
You learned nothing? The topic of kit vs plans built EAB is for adults. It must have flew over your head. Ha ha.
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HFS
Well Known Member
Scratch Built RV-4 in Bakersfield, CA ...
home of all things RV (John Harmon) back in the '70's & '80's.
A builder named Steve Ward scratch built a -4 there during that time, with one interesting change - no "slipper tanks" in the wings!
He just closed up that section, sloshed it, and moved on. He finished it and it flew, so it must have worked.
HFS
home of all things RV (John Harmon) back in the '70's & '80's.
A builder named Steve Ward scratch built a -4 there during that time, with one interesting change - no "slipper tanks" in the wings!
He just closed up that section, sloshed it, and moved on. He finished it and it flew, so it must have worked.
HFS
