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Builder #75212 Checking In

mianosm

mianosm

I'm New Here
I've been lurking on the forum here for a long time. I'm also a long-time student pilot (my first medical was in the mid-90s), hoping to obtain my private pilot certificate this year...

I suppose that saying I take things easy or slowly is an understatement.

That being said, I've received both packages for my empennage for an RV-7 (undecided on many of the future defining features, like canopy type, avionics, or spark delivery).

I've built a few work tables, and obtained an air compressor....but I'm woefully behind in stocking up on tools. My first inclination is to leverage the kits that Cleveland provides: https://cleavelandtool.com/collections/kit-of-tools-for-the-rv-6-rv-7-rv-8-rv-9

... there's also Sun-N-Fun next week just down the road from me (I'm in Clearwater), so that is also giving me pause and making me consider spending more time in the vendor hall than in the workshops.

I figured I'd pause and consider any sage-like wisdom from y'all.

Nice to be a 'builder', and I'm looking forward to the process and learning (messing up) as I go. :)

~Steven
 
I'm a new builder so take my advice with a grain of salt but here's my $.02...

You can't have too many work tables. I built six (8' long) and could use a couple more. I also have seven 8' long and 7' high shelves and could use a couple more. The Cleaveland tool kits are a great start! I've ended up buying quite a few more odds and ends over the past 18 months (squeezer yokes, paint gun and supplies, bench grinder, borescope, mirrors, tubing cutter and flare tools, labeler, Dremel, bucking bars, rivet sets, punches, files, drill bits, etc). Oh, band saw, belt sander and drill press too! But, the Cleaveland kit will get you 90% of what you need and their stuff is good quality.
 
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bertschb said:
I'm a new builder so take my advice with a grain of salt but here's my $.02...

You can't have too many work tables. I built six (8' long) and could use a couple more. I also have seven 8' long and 7' high shelves and could use a couple more. The Cleaveland tool kits are a great start! I've ended up buying quite a few more odds and ends over the past 18 months (squeezer yokes, paint gun and supplies, bench grinder, borescope, mirrors, tubing cutter and flare tools, labeler, Dremel, bucking bars, rivet sets, punches, files, drill bits, etc). Oh, band saw and drill press too! But, the Cleaveland kit will get you 90% of what you need and their stuff is good quality.
Click to expand...

My current inventory is 4 of the EAA1000 worktables, and I've been thinking about shelving as well for storage and inventory use. Thanks for the change Brian!
 
mianosm said:
My current inventory is 4 of the EAA1000 worktables, and I've been thinking about shelving as well for storage and inventory use. Thanks for the change Brian!
Click to expand...

I hope that people talk more about shelving. I'm used to rolling wire metal carts from Sam's club, wonder what else I should consider for a nice shop.
 
Instead of building the long EAA tables, I broke them up into two and put them on wheels. I have a small garage and it's nice to be able to roll them to where I need them. Two tables are waist high and the low tables are knee high. The low tables doubled as craddle to support the wings, the fuselage, and other smaller parts. If I needed more space in the garage, the tables can be temporarily rolled out to the patio. One person who used to be on VAF spent a lot of work fitting out his workshop that he didn't finish his airplane, at least he stopped posting his progress after the empenage.

How many hours do you devote to your build? My neighbor's midget mustang is approaching its 20 years mark. It is now a conversation piece rather than an airplane project. A hangar neighbor finished his Zenith in about a year. He, his friend, and his son got the kit and went to work, and worked really fast.
 
Think about how you like things.
A dedicated tool cabinet(s) is helpful.
I have two EAA benches and never needed more. No wheels.
A sudo EAA bench has all the bench power tools.
I like parts organized so I use storage bins and shelving. Nothing fancy. Wire shelving from Home Depot.
I have five Harbor Fright 40-drawer parts cabinets. Bolts, nuts, screws, washers, fittings. I could fill two more easy. Drawers all labeled.
Rivets are all in 8oz clean and dried water bottles. Labeled.
During inventory, I used an Excel spreadsheet. One column is location. Every item location was documented.
Flat skins slip between sheets of cardboard behind the shelves.
Completed components were hung from hooks with webbing.
 
wirejock said:
I have two EAA benches and never needed more. No wheels.
Click to expand...
Wow! You must be far more creative in making do with available work space than I am.

I have two 8' EAA benches side by side as my primary work surface. Two more end to end with the DRDT2 dimpler in between them. I use that "station" for dimpling parts/skins. It also comes in handy as a place to set parts on that are ready to assemble. The other two benches currently have wings on them. I also have a wing cradle cart that was given to me but I haven't used that yet. I'll probably use it once I close the bottom wing skins out. But for now, it's much easier working on the wings while they are on benches.
 
Spend time at the workshops, sheet metal and electrical. They’re both very beneficial and will help you with potentially knowing what additional tools you may require. I’m mechanically-minded by nature, but the workshops added more build knowledge needed along the way.
 
Brian laid out a pretty good list. I would jump onto the recommendation of going with the Cleaveland kit as a starting place. The kit is top notch and will get you a big chunk of what you need to get going. That being said, just be prepared for the fact that you are going to be buying tools and random materials pretty much non-stop throughout the build. You're starting with basic aluminum and riveting tools, but as you progress through the build you will move beyond that to plumbing, electrical, fiberglass, etc, and most of those processes require additional tools that aren't in the kits. I wouldn't worry about trying to figure it all out up front through - it's really hard to know exactly what style of tool you want until you've seen what you need to do. I don't think it was mentioned, but I've also got a small belt/disc sander (1" belt/6" disc - cheapo from Grizzly) and a bench grinder for the Scotch Brite wheel. I use those a lot and would hate to be without them. You can get away without a bandsaw and drill press, but you'll save yourself a lot of effort by having them.
 
I went with the Cleaveland tool kit, and while it's not the cheapest, it's quality, and designed and organized for easy use. I also appreciated their how-to videos for most of their tools.
I found an RV10 builders post here on the website that had a great list of the 'everything else so far' tools and accessories, I'll look for the link. And there was another small pile of cash for clamps, die grinder, torque wrenches, digital protractors, calipers, more 3m pads, sand paper, more clamps, etc.
People say you can get away without it, but some of my favorite time spent building is cutting things apart on the band saw. It makes it so easy, and, feels therapeutic. I can even still count to 10 on my hands.
Benches are a hot topic here and for good reason. Benches will be more limited by the size of your shop than, 'should I have more?' Now that I'm close to starting the wings, I wish I had build a leaf'ed main table to extend the length when needed, but I build a wide table vs the doubled EAA. Also, I'm 6'3, so I built my tables tall, and I don't regret that one bit. Another snafu was I built my DRDT2 into my long wall bench, which ended up bisecting my longest bench, and made it awkward for some dimpling. I'd want the DRDT2 on a rolling table that can roll flush up to my main work tables.
tl;dr
Buy the Cleaveland tools go to workshops and get building. There's plenty more checks to write and things to learn along the way.
 
bertschb said:
Wow! You must be far more creative in making do with available work space than I am.

I have two 8' EAA benches side by side as my primary work surface. Two more end to end with the DRDT2 dimpler in between them. I use that "station" for dimpling parts/skins. It also comes in handy as a place to set parts on that are ready to assemble. The other two benches currently have wings on them. I also have a wing cradle cart that was given to me but I haven't used that yet. I'll probably use it once I close the bottom wing skins out. But for now, it's much easier working on the wings while they are on benches.
Click to expand...
Not at all. Everyone works different. That's my point. I'm used to limited space. My wings were built in jigs. Fuse went on a rotisserie as soon as it could.
You'll figure out what you like and don't let anyone tell you it's wrong.
 
Similar to you, I was starting my PPL when I ordered my first kit. I am currently building the RV10 and now have about 300 hrs flying and am slowly working on my instrument rating.
The fuselage is mostly done and the wings about half done....hoping to have it flying this year.
Happy to talk if you want to. The journey is amazing.
 
Cleveland sells good stuff. I originally bought my toolkit from Bob Avery, but additional purchases have been from Cleveland.

A few personal thoughts on tools:
- DRDT2 - an amazing tool, but if you have a small shop it can be a pain to use. For me, it was a one trick pony (dimpling), and from what I've read, you need to upgrade the frame to get into things like back riveting with it. After borrowing one for a bit, I returned it in favor of my standard C-Frame tool, upgraded with the 12" back rivet set, which was a game changer. The C-Frame is smaller and orders of magnitude lighter than the DRDT2, making it easier to move around in limited space.​
- Squeezers - I have an older manual squeezer and the Numatx. I've used the Main Squeeze and a normal pneumatic squeezer. If I was only going to buy one, I'd opt for the Main Squeeze. If you're also going to go the "pneumatic" route, I'd spend the money on the Numatx for a number reasons. IMO, it's worth the extra coin.​
​
Organizing - I'm a bit of a contrarian on what a lot of others recommend. I do the inventory, but leave everything in the bags Van's sends them in. I then scan / OCR / PDF the inventory list they send, and can now easily search the list to find what I need. The OCR process isn't perfect, but I think I've had to search the list manually 2, maybe 3 times since doing this. Bins are nice, but take time to organize, and are not space efficient. I'm only on the wing kit, so my tune may change later, but this has worked so far.
 
tyconnell said:
...leave everything in the bags Van's sends them in.
Click to expand...
I do the same. I then lay the bags out in numerical order on the shelf.

One caveat - since Vans typically mixes multiple parts in each bag, we separate each group of parts into their own smaller bags (with the associated part numbers on the bags) then put all these smaller bags into the "main" bag that Vans gives us.

DRDT2 vs C-Frame - I have both. I use the DRDT2 99% of the time. Glad I have both because there are a few times where the C-Frame was the right tool for the job.
Squeezers - I have a pneumatic squeezer and the Main Squeeze. I use the pneumatic squeezer 99.5% of the time.
 
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bertschb said:
... I then lay the bags out in numerical order on the shelf.
Click to expand...
Same, but in a drawer in my tool chest.

...
bertschb said:
Squeezers - I have a pneumatic squeezer and the Main Squeeze. I use the pneumatic squeezer 99.5% of the time.
Click to expand...
I borrowed my buddies squeezer, and believe you need "something" more than a manual (this was before I used the Main Squeeze), but opted for the Numatx for these reasons:
  • A little smaller
  • Lighter
  • Foot pedal operation gives you both hands
  • Dialing in the air pressure for the rivet size - 2 settings (AD3, AD4) - no more fiddling with adjustable sets or shims
The last was what sold me, but any choice here is a good one.

Edited to add: Tungsten bucking bar is a must - not sure if there are even other options.
 
For what it's worth, I have a full 7(A) inventory in Excel formatted exactly as the shipping list. Every bag, nut, bolt, rivet, etc. If you search, it shows results. It includes a lot of tail and all nose wheel. No tipper parts though. It would be easy to add missing parts.
Invaluable when I was looking for a part. I added a shop location column during inventory.
 
wirejock said:
For what it's worth, I have a full 7(A) inventory in Excel formatted exactly as the shipping list. Every bag, nut, bolt, rivet, etc. If you search, it shows results. It includes a lot of tail and all nose wheel. No tipper parts though. It would be easy to add missing parts.
Invaluable when I was looking for a part. I added a shop location column during inventory.
Click to expand...
I liked that idea, and haven't opened the boxes yet. Still planning on attending the workshops this weekend and probably buying the kit from Cleveland. :)

My RV-7 Emp shipping list is hosted in the cloud now, and I plan on doing the inventory maybe next weekend (after SnF):

docs.google.com

Rv-7/7A EMP-2 KIT

docs.google.com docs.google.com

I'm working on ensuring my maneuvers are ACS or better for the time being, all of the other PPL requirements are met. No rush on any of my aviation endeavors, I'm hoping and planning on 5+ years to take my time, really learn and understand all of the options and techniques. The end will be great, but likely bittersweet (like reading a long book that you enjoy(ed)). Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast.

Thanks for the feedback and insights! :)
 
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