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Breather line and oil blow by.

Jeff Bost

Member
Gentlemen,

Here are a few pics I snapped today of my crankcase breather line. I’ve gone from 7 to 4 qts in 13 hrs, with most being blown overboard. I realize I overfilled at the oil change but I’m concerned at my oil use. I went over the engine pretty well this morning and found no real leaks. A little oil at the bottom of the dipstick tube. I thought maybe I’m getting a vacuum at the breather and drawing oil out. I’d appreciate any ideas. Thanks,

Jeff
 

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What’s your best guess on how to fix it? Thanks, Jeff

Install the breather IACW the plans -- see OP-27 (attached)

Screenshot 2024-08-30 at 5.25.09 PM.png


The exit of the breather tube is positioned immediately above the left hand exhaust pipe and is pointed forward. There are also a series of slots cut into the tube to let it "breathe" should the exit become blocked due to icing or other.

Here's another picture of the breather positioning:


IMG_2742.jpeg
 
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Install the breather IACW the plans -- see OP-27 (attached)

View attachment 69502

The exit of the breather tube is positioned immediately above the left hand exhaust pipe and is pointed forward. There are also a series of slots cut into the tube to let it "breathe" should the exit become blocked due to icing or other.

Here's another picture of the breather positioning:


View attachment 69503
Install the breather IACW the plans -- see OP-27 (attached)

View attachment 69502

The exit of the breather tube is positioned immediately above the left hand exhaust pipe and is pointed forward. There are also a series of slots cut into the tube to let it "breathe" should the exit become blocked due to icing or other.

Here's another picture of the breather positioning:


View attachment 69503

Bryan....this is very helpful. Thanks! I new this should be hard tube and not rubber hose like mine. I'll try and find someone that can help me correct this. Thanks again, Jeff
 
Bryan....this is very helpful. Thanks! I new this should be hard tube and not rubber hose like mine. I'll try and find someone that can help me correct this. Thanks again, Jeff
For what it's worth, you can use rubber tube, just make sure its MIL-DTL-6000D type, 3/4" or 5/8" ID, which ever is appropriate to the size of the breather fitting on the case. Then route it down to just above the exhaust pipe, insert a section of aluminum tubing in the end (see second picture), put an angle on it and you should be good to go.
 
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For what it's worth, you can use rubber tube, just make sure its MIL-DTL-6000D type, 3/4" or 5/8" ID, which ever is appropriate to the size of the breather fitting on the case. Then route it down to just above the exhaust pipe, insert a section of aluminum tubing in the end (see second picture), put an angle on it and you should be good to go.

Your current installation has the breather sitting up a bit too high relative to the cowl exit. I agree with @rocketman1988 - you're probably getting some "suck" right there.

Brian…..just to be clear, my airplane is a 6A. Don’t know if the setup is different on a 7. Jeff
 
When convenient, I‘d check compression on new cylinders, #3 #4 I think you said. You have confidence/documented break in on those? I run 6qts, top when at 5qts. Just some thoughts.
 
It’s a good bet that you are getting a vacuum drawn on that breather…

Ok, I got $10 says no. Show me your measurements.

Point is, let's not propagate beliefs without data to support them.

In a general sense, there is no significant vacuum in a standard cowl exit. Not enough velocity, and anyway, static pressure prior to the plane of the exit is higher than freestream pressure. There may be some small local areas in the immediate exit wake with pressure lower than freestream static, but they are unlikely to be stable.

Too bad, because crankcase pressure below freestream static is desirable. I run a significant vacuum on the breather (3 to 3.5" Hg in cruise), on purpose. Marshall Murray (Sky Dynamics) has been building case evacuation into his exhaust systems for years (1" at 1500 to 3" Hg at 2700). One user measured the popular Anti-Splat clamp-on at a little over 1". Race engine applications use a vacuum pump to pull as much as 15". Cars have had a PCV system since 1967. None of these significantly increase oil loss. Reduced density means less ability to carry aerosol droplets.
 
When convenient, I‘d check compression on new cylinders, #3 #4 I think you said. You have confidence/documented break in on those? I run 6qts, top when at 5qts. Just some thoughts.
Butch. Prior owner ran it hard with mineral for over 10 hours. We check compressions at prebuy with low to mid 70’s result. With that I went back to Phillips XC which I prefer and run in two other airplanes.

The dipstick on this O-360 had a series of notches and no numbers. I plan to calibrate at next oil change to verify marks. Last change we added 7, and wish I’d added 6. Jeff
 
Ok, I got $10 says no. Show me your measurements.

Point is, let's not propagate beliefs without data to support them.

In a general sense, there is no significant vacuum in a standard cowl exit. Not enough velocity, and anyway, static pressure prior to the plane of the exit is higher than freestream pressure. There may be some small local areas in the immediate exit wake with pressure lower than freestream static, but they are unlikely to be stable.

Too bad, because crankcase pressure below freestream static is desirable. I run a significant vacuum on the breather (3 to 3.5" Hg in cruise), on purpose. Marshall Murray (Sky Dynamics) has been building case evacuation into his exhaust systems for years (1" at 1500 to 3" Hg at 2700). One user measured the popular Anti-Splat clamp-on at a little over 1". Race engine applications use a vacuum pump to pull as much as 15". Cars have had a PCV system since 1967. None of these significantly increase oil loss. Reduced density means less ability to carry aerosol droplets.
What do you do with the oil from the breather, Dan? Do you return it to the case, like the anti splat system does? Or do you collect it in a can and routinely dump it? Obviously, returning it to the case would show very little loss over time, certainly much less than dumping it overboard.

I'd like to see your data on the amount of oil collected from the breather with a static breather tube versus that tube with an aft facing 45 degree bevel in the cowl air exit stream, and that same breather in the free stream outside of the cowl.

Like you said, "...let's not propagate beliefs without data to support them."

Not looking for an argument; honestly curious about the data.
 
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Mine was like post 5.

I had minor leaks indicating a pressuized crankcase and a bit of consumption.

Now I am vertical, 45 degree bevel aft, about halfway between firewall bottom and top of lower cowl- but aft enough where the cowl ends.

There should be a bit of vacuum on mine. Engine does not seep and 1 qt per 25 hour consumption on steel jugs.
 
Mine was like post 5.

I had minor leaks indicating a pressuized crankcase and a bit of consumption.

Now I am vertical, 45 degree bevel aft, about halfway between firewall bottom and top of lower cowl- but aft enough where the cowl ends.

There should be a bit of vacuum on mine. Engine does not seep and 1 qt per 25 hour consumption on steel jugs.
Thanks. Would love to see a photo. Jeff
 
Not looking for an argument; honestly curious about the data.

As a jet pilot, you're aware that a reduction in lift goes hand in hand with a reduction in air density. Suspension of aerosol oil droplets in blow-by gas is no different. I'm not likely to revise my current breather system to demonstrate the point, but since you asked for data, I will offer a case history.

This is a 503cc four valve single. It was my favorite 1980's engine experimentation mule, because modification was cheap and easy...one piston, one carb, one set of ports, etc. Photo was taken just after the '86 WERA GNF, where I finished as the #2 Expert in Formula II.


FT500 right.jpg


A single has a HUGE case pressure problem. Every time the piston descends, it displaces 503cc of crankcase volume, then as the piston rises, it tries to pull 503cc into the case from the outside air. To combat that pumping, most singles and opposed twins (boxer BMW, for example) are designed with a rudimentary one-way valve in the breather. The idea is to displace the case volume out the breather the first time the piston(s) move toward BDC, and not let it back in. Crankcase gas is thus limited to blow-by and some valve leakage. The result is moderated case pressure at BDC, and hopefully something less than atmospheric near TDC. Still a pump, but better than nothing.

The rulebook required a catch can, for good reason. Turned to 10,000 RPM with a stock breather, this thing would fill half a 16oz catch can in 12 laps.

As every racer knows, if the rulebook doesn't mention something, it's legal, at least until they write the next rulebook. To reduce pumping loss and fix the oil problem, I built a catch can with a two-stroke tent reed hidden inside. The lower volume of the catch can was tapped high on the side, and piped to an exhaust tap in the collector, just like today's Sky Dynamics exhaust. The exhaust tap subjected the crankcase to about 5" negative pressure, and the tent reed meant no reverse leakage. Case pressure was likely always below atmospheric, even at BDC. Catch can oil volume went from 8oz in 12 laps to 8 oz for the entire remainder of the season.

Low density gas transports less oil. Reduce density to a true vacuum and it becomes impossible to transport aerosol oil.

Returning to the OP's issue...

The Lycoming also has a pumping problem, but it's between the fore and aft crankcase volumes, not crankcase to atmosphere. The amount of gas leaving via the breather port is a function of ring leakage only. Reduction of crankcase pressure improves ring sealing. In Bubba terms, no amount of sucking on the breather hose will increase oil loss.

FT500 Breather.jpg
 
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As a jet pilot, you're aware that a reduction in lift goes hand in hand with a reduction in air density. Suspension of aerosol oil droplets in blow-by gas is no different. I'm not likely to revise my current breather system to demonstrate the point, but since you asked for data, I will offer a case history.

This is a 503cc four valve single. It was my favorite 1980's engine experimentation mule, because modification was cheap and easy...one piston, one carb, one set of ports, etc. Photo was taken just after the '86 WERA GNF, where I finished as the #2 Expert in Formula II.


View attachment 69608

A single has a HUGE case pressure problem. Every time the piston descends, it displaces 503cc of crankcase volume, then as the piston rises, it tries to pull 503cc into the case from the outside air. To combat that pumping, most singles and opposed twins (boxer BMW, for example) are designed with a rudimentary one-way valve in the breather. The idea is to displace the case volume out the breather the first time the piston(s) move toward BDC, and not let it back in. Crankcase gas is thus limited to blow-by and some valve leakage. The result is moderated case pressure at BDC, and hopefully something less than atmospheric near TDC. Still a pump, but better than nothing.

The rulebook required a catch can, for good reason. Turned to 10,000 RPM with a stock breather, this thing would fill half a 16oz catch can in 12 laps.

As every racer knows, if the rulebook doesn't mention something, it's legal, at least until they write the next rulebook. To reduce pumping loss and fix the oil problem, I built a catch can with a two-stroke tent reed hidden inside. The lower volume of the catch can was tapped high on the side, and piped to an exhaust tap in the collector, just like today's Sky Dynamics exhaust. The exhaust tap subjected the crankcase to about 5" negative pressure, and the tent reed meant no reverse leakage. Case pressure was likely always below atmospheric, even at BDC. Catch can oil volume went from 8oz in 12 laps to 8 oz for the entire remainder of the season.

Low density gas transports less oil. Reduce density to a true vacuum and it becomes impossible to transport aerosol oil.

Returning to the OP's issue...

The Lycoming also has a pumping problem, but it's between the fore and aft crankcase volumes, not crankcase to atmosphere. The amount of gas leaving via the breather port is a function of ring leakage only. Reduction of crankcase pressure improves ring sealing. In Bubba terms, no amount of sucking on the breather hose will increase oil loss.

View attachment 69609
Thanks Dan. I’ve got to figure out where the oil is going. Maybe I’m burning it but my exhaust pipes are dry and not oily. I know I’ve got a small leak at the dip stick tube, but not enough to account for my low quantity and dirty belly. Mystery!
 
As a jet pilot, you're aware that a reduction in lift goes hand in hand with a reduction in air density. Suspension of aerosol oil droplets in blow-by gas is no different. I'm not likely to revise my current breather system to demonstrate the point, but since you asked for data, I will offer a case history.

This is a 503cc four valve single. It was my favorite 1980's engine experimentation mule, because modification was cheap and easy...one piston, one carb, one set of ports, etc. Photo was taken just after the '86 WERA GNF, where I finished as the #2 Expert in Formula II.


View attachment 69608

A single has a HUGE case pressure problem. Every time the piston descends, it displaces 503cc of crankcase volume, then as the piston rises, it tries to pull 503cc into the case from the outside air. To combat that pumping, most singles and opposed twins (boxer BMW, for example) are designed with a rudimentary one-way valve in the breather. The idea is to displace the case volume out the breather the first time the piston(s) move toward BDC, and not let it back in. Crankcase gas is thus limited to blow-by and some valve leakage. The result is moderated case pressure at BDC, and hopefully something less than atmospheric near TDC. Still a pump, but better than nothing.

The rulebook required a catch can, for good reason. Turned to 10,000 RPM with a stock breather, this thing would fill half a 16oz catch can in 12 laps.

As every racer knows, if the rulebook doesn't mention something, it's legal, at least until they write the next rulebook. To reduce pumping loss and fix the oil problem, I built a catch can with a two-stroke tent reed hidden inside. The lower volume of the catch can was tapped high on the side, and piped to an exhaust tap in the collector, just like today's Sky Dynamics exhaust. The exhaust tap subjected the crankcase to about 5" negative pressure, and the tent reed meant no reverse leakage. Case pressure was likely always below atmospheric, even at BDC. Catch can oil volume went from 8oz in 12 laps to 8 oz for the entire remainder of the season.

Low density gas transports less oil. Reduce density to a true vacuum and it becomes impossible to transport aerosol oil.

Returning to the OP's issue...

The Lycoming also has a pumping problem, but it's between the fore and aft crankcase volumes, not crankcase to atmosphere. The amount of gas leaving via the breather port is a function of ring leakage only. Reduction of crankcase pressure improves ring sealing. In Bubba terms, no amount of sucking on the breather hose will increase oil loss.

View attachment 69609
Thanks for the details of that experience.
 
Thanks Dan. I’ve got to figure out where the oil is going. Maybe I’m burning it but my exhaust pipes are dry and not oily. I know I’ve got a small leak at the dip stick tube, but not enough to account for my low quantity and dirty belly. Mystery!

Jeff, it is probably going out the breather. I'm just saying it's not made worse because of suction at the hose end. Given the reported CHTs and baffle photos in the other thread, you may just have a lot of blow-by.

What's the deal with the clamp-on port on the left tailpipe?
 
Jeff, it is probably going out the breather. I'm just saying it's not made worse because of suction at the hose end. Given the reported CHTs and baffle photos in the other thread, you may just have a lot of blow-by.

What's the deal with the clamp-on port on the left tailpipe?
Dan. I haven’t been back to the airport yet to investigate. Will let you know. Jeff
 
It does appear there is a crankcase evac system installed in the OPs pictures. If that‘s the case then would be nice to know when the last time it was inspected and cleaned. There are known issues with these check valves coking up.
 
It does appear there is a crankcase evac system installed in the OPs pictures. If that‘s the case then would be nice to know when the last time it was inspected and cleaned. There are known issues with these check valves coking up.
Michael. The original builder installed the ASA air/oil separator. Owner number 2 removed it before I bought. I don’t know if the removal and subsequent replumb, if any, is at all correct. A friend and 6 builder is going to take a look this week for me. Jeff
 
Get a picture of the top of the breather line. I’m willing to bet it turns immediately down after it connects to the engine.
 
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