are things like landing lights included?

[Blw2]

I was clicking around on the order page, using RV-14 as an example since the -15 isn't up yet....just trying to get an idea of what my first kit buy might cost and how much i need to duck when I ask the wife.....
assuming the tail kit might be the first thing to do....
and I noticed the option to exclude or delete the tail light
ditto the nav lights in the wings....

those three lights seems to be just about the only thing that is promintently an option to delete out of the kit

so that set me down the path wondering if I'd want to just stick with what they've designed around, or hmmm...would it be better to play around with some of those other light brands and models?? I know I'd want to add some pretty good strobes...and probably some super duper wig wag landing lights so that folks can see me coming and going!

but more importantly, now I'm wondering are things like the landing lights included?
And if they aren't....what other little things like that won't be included? Might end up as a major budget item if there are a lot of little things!

 

[Toddsanderson]

Install a VP-X system for your electrical and you will get the wig-wag feature included at no cost.

 

[gasman]

but more importantly, now I'm wondering are things like the landing lights included?
And if they aren't....what other little things like that won't be included? Might end up as a major budget item if there are a lot of little things!

Your build will always cost you more than what you figure. If that's a deal breaker, then you shouldn't start the build until the issue is resolved.
Or expect many delays and a high chance of failure.

Building a kit aircraft only requires two major things.... Time and Money.

 

[Auburntsts]

Outside of the RV-12, in the other RVs generally almost nothing electrical be it lights, avionics, switches, circuit protection, wiring, battery or components is included in the base kit. Don't forget any specialty tools as well. Sure Van's does offer some options but it's nowhere near all-inclusive. The same is true FWF, for the interior, and lots of other systems that are needed to make the kit into a flying aircraft. IOW the kit gets you an unfinished airframe - you're on your own to finish it out.

 

[bruceh]

Just plan on the build costing around $200,000+. If that scares you now, then don't bother buying the tail kit. It is only going to go up from there.
I spent about $60K (engine, prop, avionics, wiring, etc.) over and beyond the cost of the kits to complete my RV-9A for first flight (10 years ago). Then I spent more money on the interior, paint and various updates to the panel, electronics, lights, etc.

BUT, when I finished I had a brand new airplane with modern panel for about 1/4 the cost of a new certificated aircraft. BTW, it is never "finished". I continue to change and add stuff every year.
AND, it was built exactly the way I wanted it and could maintain the airplane myself.

Overall, the RV kit built aircraft are a bargain.

 

[JDA_BTR]

There are so many little things……. I have 2500 hours of labor in my RV14, a very nice and expensive engine, and the avionics cost about the same as the engine. So many choices I had to make and every one of them took hours to consider and more to decide. Then every change from plans took even more time and money. Then there is the pile of parts I messed up and the shipping. Ugh, the shipping.

 

[Canadian_JOY]

and how much i need to duck when I ask the wife.....

I might suggest that, if you are "asking your wife" then you are likely not at the right place in your relationship to consider taking on a project of this nature. If she's not already fully on board with the whole idea of building and owning an airplane then it is advisable to get to that point with her.

Once at that point of a supportive, team approach to building and owning an aircraft is established then the cost just becomes a conversation about numbers and basic financial planning. You shouldn't have to worry about ducking.

 

[D-Dubya]

Brad, it may have changed since I bought my kit back at the turn of the century, but I think the options for the lights you're referring to aren't for the actual lighting component. It's for the fairing or the wingtip to be able to accommodate the light. For instance, the lower rudder fairing can have a place molded in for a tail light (position and/or strobe), or it can be left plain. You can then add whatever light or LED combination that you want. It's pretty much the same on the wingtips. There can be recess with a plexiglass cover for lights, or it can just be a smooth wingtip. There are some pretty impressive upgrades for lighting sold by aftermarket vendors, some of which advertise here on the VAF. In addition, the technology for that is improving all the time.

We don't want to scare you away from this endeavor, but understand the price of the kit is only one component of the total cost of a finished plane. I'll be honest...when I first started building, I had no idea how I was going to pay for the expensive things that followed the kit (engine, prop, avionics, etc.). But it all seemed to work out. Just do your homework and go into this prepared.

 

[Ralph Inkster]

I was clicking around on the order page, using RV-14

assuming the tail kit might be the first thing to do....
and I noticed the option to exclude or delete the tail light
ditto the nav lights in the wings....

those three lights seems to be just about the only thing that is promintently an option to delete out of the kit


but more importantly, now I'm wondering are things like the landing lights included?
And if they aren't....what other little things like that won't be included? Might end up as a major budget item if there are a lot of little things!

Lighting options are in the listings because there are different fairings involved whether you have those lights or not.

Think of the Vans airframe kits as the metal shell (& a few fiberglass pieces as well), just the airframe. Everything you put in it & attach outside are additional parts you will require to meet your custom needs. Think of everything you look at & touch on the panel, everything you sit on or finish off in the interior, everything (mostly) that you put under the cowling, everything you look at outside- lights, fairings, wheel pants, spinner, & prop. All these extra things are what will make your plane custom to you. Oh & there is paint too.

In another world it's like looking at the Home Depot catalogue & contemplating getting a garage package - that doesn't include the pad, siding, doors, windows, insulation, wiring, paint....

 

[71459]

Installed lights for night requirements. Flew after dark exactly ONCE in 25 years. If I did it again, I wouldn't install any lights whatsoever - keep it inexpensive, simple, and lightweight.

 

[Toddsanderson]

A better idea is to buy one already done unless you enjoy building. Even the 14 is a 1200 hour build time minimum and the build will cost you 50% more than you first estimate. I have built a Glasair III, Lancair 360, and three helicopters. Those are the only aircraft I have lost money on. I just bought a 14A a few weeks ago that would cost more to build than I paid (not including free labor) and it has dual touch screen, A/C, professional P&I, etc. I think the paint and interior alone was around $30k. Engines are $65k, props $12k, nice panel $50k. Add it all up and you will be $250k minimum if you want a nice one.

 

[Blw2]

Outside of the RV-12, in the other RVs generally almost nothing electrical be it lights, avionics, switches, circuit protection, wiring, battery or components is included in the base kit. Don't forget any specialty tools as well. Sure Van's does offer some options but it's nowhere near all-inclusive. The same is true FWF, for the interior, and lots of other systems that are needed to make the kit into a flying aircraft. IOW the kit gets you an unfinished airframe - you're on your own to finish it out.

Thanks. Yeah, I understood that things like engine, avionics, paint, and upholstery aren't included.... so none of the wires, switches, etc.... so I would assume also none of the mounting brackets or attach points for wiring, etc would be included either.
So am I correct that the full kit then would pretty much be the stripped out aluminum hull? That's a hard thing to imagine how to plan and budget.... I suppose it's one piece and one hurdle at a time, just like any other project

 

[Blw2]

Brad, it may have changed since I bought my kit back at the turn of the century, but I think the options for the lights you're referring to aren't for the actual lighting component. It's for the fairing or the wingtip to be able to accommodate the light. For instance, the lower rudder fairing can have a place molded in for a tail light (position and/or strobe), or it can be left plain. You can then add whatever light or LED combination that you want. It's pretty much the same on the wingtips. There can be recess with a plexiglass cover for lights, or it can just be a smooth wingtip. There are some pretty impressive upgrades for lighting sold by aftermarket vendors, some of which advertise here on the VAF. In addition, the technology for that is improving all the time.

We don't want to scare you away from this endeavor, but understand the price of the kit is only one component of the total cost of a finished plane. I'll be honest...when I first started building, I had no idea how I was going to pay for the expensive things that followed the kit (engine, prop, avionics, etc.). But it all seemed to work out. Just do your homework and go into this prepared.

thanks David and Ralph too. I thought it odd that those relatively minor little things were included....and yeah it does read as if the actual light fixture is included (or deducted). Makes a bit more sense if it's different airframe parts or fairings I suppose.

 

[Blw2]

Thanks everyone.
It does seem like an odd thing to have to make a choice on those minor little lights at the start, before a new builder has had a chance to really get into it and figure out what lighting they want to ultimately have....but I guess you've gotta start somewhere.

I'm just daydreaming about a retirement project in a maybe a few more years, so I've got some time to figure it out.....

 

[wirejock]

Lights

<snip>

but more importantly, now I'm wondering are things like the landing lights included?
And if they aren't....what other little things like that won't be included? Might end up as a major budget item if there are a lot of little things!

Probably tons of things. As they say, you don't know, what you don't know!.
Time to get up to speed.

No idea how the kit is designed but I would opt for the rudder set up for the Fly LED Beacon and the wing tips set up for FlyLED Works kit.

 

[Blw2]

Probably tons of things. As they say, you don't know, what you don't know!.
Time to get up to speed.

No idea how the kit is designed but I would opt for the rudder set up for the Fly LED Beacon and the wing tips set up for FlyLED Works kit.

exactly....I don't know what I don't know...but I'm trying to figure at least some of it out!

so sense Van's is using Aero LED's...at least on the 14 kits anyway, then if I'm understanding you correctly then you'd opt to deduct those items, and buy the Flyled stuff aftermarket....

I see that they also have a freeform text comment box where you can request other deductions from a kit.... how in the world is a first time builder supposed to have a handle on things they might be interested in deleting?

for example...flap switch. If I were ordering today, I have no idea if one is included or not!
actually that's a great example of what I'm thinking about here.... I'm pretty sure I'd want to try and find a salvaged cessna flap switch from a late model Cessna...or perhaps make something like it. I'm partial to those over the momentary types. (the Cessna switch that has actual notches at 10 degrees, 20 degrees, etc...)

I dunno...my cogs are turning and I'm getting more eager to get started on something!

 

[Auburntsts]

Thanks. Yeah, I understood that things like engine, avionics, paint, and upholstery aren't included.... so none of the wires, switches, etc.... so I would assume also none of the mounting brackets or attach points for wiring, etc would be included either.
So am I correct that the full kit then would pretty much be the stripped out aluminum hull? That's a hard thing to imagine how to plan and budget.... I suppose it's one piece and one hurdle at a time, just like any other project

The kit does come with some wiring hardware but you’ll need some additional basic wiring bench stock like adel clamps, grommets, bushings and such. Steinair sells a wiring kit that can help. https://www.steinair.com/product-category/kits/page/2/ You’ll want some additional general hardware benchstock (nut bolts, washers, screws, etc) and there’s kits for that as well. As for budgeting, take the kit price and multiply by 3 then add 10% and that will get you ballpark. But understand that the more you farm out to a pro (like the panel), the more mods you apply, or the more you gravitate towards a show quality build your budget is going to balloon. There’s also tons of hidden costs like shipping, tools, insurance etc that tend not to get quantified anywhere,

 

[dmattmul]

Lighting

If you want to avoid the hassle of a leading-edge cut-out the 14 has an option to not have it cut by Vans. (An extra 100 bucks) There are multiple wingtip only lighting solutions out there and would recommend them. Most lighting companies (Aveo, others) have a method to wig-wag (In their own circuitry) without the need for VPX. VPX is certainly "nice" but not essential.

For a 14 if you go with QB's, a Thunderbolt engine, high end panel, custom interior, high end paint you are looking at close to 250k but there are lots of ways to reduce this. It's easy to calculate using Vans list pricing for airframe kits engine and prop. Panel can be anywhere from 30k to 55 k depending on options. Good luck !

 

[wirejock]

Overload

exactly....I don't know what I don't know...but I'm trying to figure at least some of it out!

so sense Van's is using Aero LED's...at least on the 14 kits anyway, then if I'm understanding you correctly then you'd opt to deduct those items, and buy the Flyled stuff aftermarket....

I see that they also have a freeform text comment box where you can request other deductions from a kit.... how in the world is a first time builder supposed to have a handle on things they might be interested in deleting?

for example...flap switch. If I were ordering today, I have no idea if one is included or not!
actually that's a great example of what I'm thinking about here.... I'm pretty sure I'd want to try and find a salvaged cessna flap switch from a late model Cessna...or perhaps make something like it. I'm partial to those over the momentary types. (the Cessna switch that has actual notches at 10 degrees, 20 degrees, etc...)

I dunno...my cogs are turning and I'm getting more eager to get started on something!

Yea. Total sensory overload. You'll be fine. Eat the elephant one bite at a time. It helps to find a local with the same model to discuss this sort of stuff.

Check out both AeroLED and FlyLED then decide. If it's just a rudder fairing, that's easy to change. Wingtips are a bit more expensive but you've got time for that decision.

Don't sweat deductions. Vans doesn't give you MSRP credit. You get wholesale. It's usually better to take the stuff and sell what you don't use. Someone always needs it.

If memory serves, the 14 harness is designed for the flap switch on the stick, but it's fairly easy to add one on the panel. They wouldn't include a special switch. It would be a simple DPDT mom-off-mom switch. It also depends on what avionics you choose. If you choose a VPX or ACM, the flaps will configure for all sorts of settings. The new flap motor has a sensor built in to integrate with new avionics.

It helps to start a list. Call it a wish list or whatever. Put everything on it you may want with links. As time goes on, items get added or deleted because they are included with one kit or another. Other items change based on personal preference. It's kinda cool actually. My list is getting short.

 

[dmattmul]

Find a mentor

Once you decide what airframe fits you mission review posts and PM someone that seems to be knowledgeable for the kit desired. 80% or more of builders on VAF would love to help you. Reach out.

Larry is correct, once completed you can have a after build sale and get rid of the majority of items purchased at sometimes break-even or higher. Parts keep going up every year!! Getting extra "stuff" normally the freight doesn't cost anything more.

 

[Blw2]

good advice. Sadly nobody to call for the RV-15 at this point

I have been thinking of a 14 or maybe a 9 for a while, but have never been totally settled on either. Lately I've been thinking that the 15 checks amost all the boxes

 

[Doug Rohrer]

-14A Build

I am building my -14A like Larry outlined: FLYLed Works kit for Navigation, strobe and landing lights. I paid the $200 to have the leading edge landing light cutouts NOT cut out. The kit includes all the wiring needed, so the wiring supplied in the Vans emp kit is not used. Then I had Approach Fast Stack sell me the avionics and make up the harness to hook it all together. This means I am using none of the provided harnesses from Vans. I previously built a -9A using this system so I am comfortable moving this far away from the stock plans. I would not have done it this way if this was my first RV build. If you use the stock Vans wiring harness, you will need to acquire a few Molex tools and get comfortable with this system.

 

[Flying Canuck]

While it's really tempting to try and figure out everything that you will need to buy during the build, it's mostly a wasted effort. There is not chance at all that you will end up getting what you pick at day 0. Offerings change, some of them quickly. There are people who buy all the kits, the engine/prop combination, a stack of avionics and build from there with everything planned out, even they'll tell you it would be better to wait and take more of a "just in time" approach.

There are natural decision points during the build and obviously some things do need to be decided up front. The build will guide you and if you plan your next year, you should be okay. And as for money, the anecdotal answer to "how much of my money will this take?" is "all of it".

 

[Blw2]

I am building my -14A like Larry outlined: FLYLed Works kit for Navigation, strobe and landing lights. I paid the $200 to have the leading edge landing light cutouts NOT cut out. The kit includes all the wiring needed, so the wiring supplied in the Vans emp kit is not used. Then I had Approach Fast Stack sell me the avionics and make up the harness to hook it all together. This means I am using none of the provided harnesses from Vans. I previously built a -9A using this system so I am comfortable moving this far away from the stock plans. I would not have done it this way if this was my first RV build. If you use the stock Vans wiring harness, you will need to acquire a few Molex tools and get comfortable with this system.

So I'm left scratching my head a bit.
If I were to omit the aeroLED light fixture from the tail kit, does that mean that the rudder has no fairing or mounting spot integrated for the light? or does that mean it's the same rudder will be supplied just no electrical fixture? and how would I know if the flyLED tailight will fit on the mounting spot?....I guess I find the vagueness in what you get vs what you don't a little puzzling....

 

[Blw2]

While it's really tempting to try and figure out everything that you will need to buy during the build, it's mostly a wasted effort. There is not chance at all that you will end up getting what you pick at day 0. Offerings change, some of them quickly. There are people who buy all the kits, the engine/prop combination, a stack of avionics and build from there with everything planned out, even they'll tell you it would be better to wait and take more of a "just in time" approach.

There are natural decision points during the build and obviously some things do need to be decided up front. The build will guide you and if you plan your next year, you should be okay. And as for money, the anecdotal answer to "how much of my money will this take?" is "all of it".

and yeah, I get that it's tempting. There's a small microscopic part of me that would want to start a spreadsheet plan.... but I've worked on enough small projects and non-aviation builds to know that ideas evolve, needs and wants change. Part of the fun in the process for me is the learning and figuring it out as I go.

That said, for me at this early stage of the game anyway, it just seems like it would be hugely helpful to have a list, pictures, or something describing at least most of what is included in each kit.... The way I see it happening, while I'm waiting for the first kit, and later even as I'm building say the fuselage and working through many of those issues, I will also be thinking ahead and researching things I might want to do in the next phase...say for example the firewall forward section...options to add, mods to make, or whatever.... and its hard to know if I need to start thinking about sourcing say engine baffle materials and design when I don't know what if anything for that is included in the base kit. (that's a very minor and bad example maybe, but still somewhat valid...and yes I realize once I get into and have plans in hand, then I could look forward in the drawings for a lot of those answers....)

 

[Blw2]

I am building my -14A like Larry outlined: FLYLed Works kit for Navigation, strobe and landing lights. I paid the $200 to have the leading edge landing light cutouts NOT cut out.

interesting.... how's a guy to know that this is even a thing?

(well that's a big reason behind me joining this forum when I'm way ahead of any sort of build....)

Hey, I wonder if Van's knows if for example I know that I likely will want to use this FLYled works kit like you are doing, if I tell them that up front, will they have a list of things to omit or add for my kit when I order it...such as this cut-out change?

 

[rocketman1988]

interesting.... how's a guy to know that this is even a thing?

(well that's a big reason behind me joining this forum when I'm way ahead of any sort of build....)

Hey, I wonder if Van's knows if for example I know that I likely will want to use this FLYled works kit like you are doing, if I tell them that up front, will they have a list of things to omit or add for my kit when I order it...such as this cut-out change?

Not likely. There are many, many great forums where people who went before you have posted and discussed mods, additions, and deletions. It is up to each individual to determine what is or isn’t needed for their individual build; there are no two builds that are exactly the same. There is, therefore, no way for vans to tell you what you need.

Best to request the kit packing list and start there. Then do your own research to decide what you want in your build. You are building a one of a kind airplane; it is a project that will require you to research, think, plan, fabricate, and execute the build.

Three facts:

It will take longer than you think.

It will cost more than you think.

If you complete it, it will be worth it.

 

[Flying Canuck]

That said, for me at this early stage of the game anyway, it just seems like it would be hugely helpful to have a list, pictures, or something describing at least most of what is included in each kit.... The way I see it happening, while I'm waiting for the first kit, and later even as I'm building say the fuselage and working through many of those issues, I will also be thinking ahead and researching things I might want to do in the next phase...say for example the firewall forward section...options to add, mods to make, or whatever.... and its hard to know if I need to start thinking about sourcing say engine baffle materials and design when I don't know what if anything for that is included in the base kit. (that's a very minor and bad example maybe, but still somewhat valid...and yes I realize once I get into and have plans in hand, then I could look forward in the drawings for a lot of those answers....)

The 2 biggest question marks, at least for my 9A build, were avionics/electrical/panel and firewall forward. The earlier kits had some variability involved, but the firewall forward is completely based on decisions that come with engine/prop/ignition/fuel system/exhaust/battery selections. Even then it's nowhere near everything you need and you are largely on your own to put it all together. And all of those options are nothing compared to the myriad ways you can go with avionics/electrical/panel. There will be plenty of time fuss over all of this when the time is right, that's just not now. Have a general idea of what you want and worry about the details later.

There is a little advantage to know what you are doing for autopilot when you finish up the wings, same with lighting, but you can mitigate that by running conduit with a pull string.

 

[dmattmul]

Plans and packing list

As Bob iterated obtaining the packing list will show every part that you will receive. You can also order a set of plans for a kit you are thinking about. For sure you will not get this 100% correct and just sell off what you did not use or use it for scrap pieces which you will need.

If this is your first build the 14 is a much better kit for first time builders that has excellent documentation that the other kits didn't have. My guess is the completion % of 14 builders is substantially higher than non-14's excluding the 12. The 15 will probably also have excellent instructions but that is still a long way off and the mission is going to be very different than the other Vans models.

 

[ronrapp]

Installed lights for night requirements. Flew after dark exactly ONCE in 25 years. If I did it again, I wouldn't install any lights whatsoever - keep it inexpensive, simple, and lightweight.

Wow, I may be in the minority but night is the absolute favorite time to fly my RV-6. Smoother, cooler, less crowded, more relaxed, better ATC services, and what a view if you're in the right place. Sunset aloft? Yes please...

Here's a pic of my 7 year old flying one evening from the right seat.

--Ron

 

[Vansconvert]

Total cost estimate

Plan on three times the cost of the air frame kit, minimum. This is what it usually ends up being for the majority of kits.

 

[Paul from Flyleds]

Hi Brad (and for others following)

We get asked about this occasionally. Can I suggest that you do not omit the landing light bays in the leading edges, ie leave it standard?

Putting landing lights in the wingtips isn't the best solution for the RV-14 and -10. Due to the smaller shape of the wingtip light bay you will end up with lots of light down the runway but you will end up with a dark patch in front of the nose. Most customers love all the light from the Flyleds The Works kit, but a few customers have mentioned that it's dark directly in front.

Rather than paying Van's extra to remove them, the much better solution is to use those lovely big leading edge light bays that they provided for you! You get lots more room which allows you to put in the best landing lights on the market, two of our Seven Stars or the Tail Dragger Max lights, depending on where the third wheel goes. The light gets to spread in front of the plane, and you'll be mistaken for a 747 every time you call in, not to mention light up the numbers very early in your approach.

Pair these with The Essentials kit for your wingtips, along with our tail light, which covers off your position and strobe light requirements. There's nothing stopping you from using The Works kit as well. Lots of customers prefer the look and just want all the light they can get. Not required in my opinion but don't let me stop you!

The rudder fairing is moulded by default with a place to fit a tail light. Our light uses the same mounting holes as all the others on the market.

 

[Blw2]

Plan on three times the cost of the air frame kit, minimum. This is what it usually ends up being for the majority of kits.

interesting.....
so is this right?
(total air frame kit)x(3) = air frame+engine+avionics+wiring+ antenna+ paint+upholstery+misc tbd stuff not included = grin

 

[Ralph Inkster]

I agree with Paul's comments. His products are pretty good too!

 

[Blw2]

thanks Paul. I've seen that comment a few times on youtube about the dark area just in front. I'll keep that in mind about leaving the stock cut-out.....
but
at this point in time I'm thinking strongly towards the RV-15, for which I suppose all this is still TBD