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Are these RV6A potential red flags?

A

allPrimes

Member
I have an opportunity to purchase a low-time RV6A. The seller is the builder and his hangar is just down the taxiway from my club's hangar.

[text referring to non-VAF advertiser site deleted per VAF rules; S.Buchanan]

The builder built it 2001-2003 from a QB kit, and it has had 211 hrs on the freshly-overhauled engine in 19 years. It flew regularly the first few years (into 2005) but appears to have sat until 2018. It has been flying regularly this summer, including a trip to Oshkosh. A local AP who does the annual engine inspection told me recently "clean aircraft!" My wife and I have gotten to know the builder and his wife. The builder is a former MT ANG fighter pilot and also flew with Alaska for many years.

It's what I think I'd like in an RV: quick enough for my wife and I to travel regionally (and nationally), IFR certified (so I can get my IR in my plane), and available for "gentleman's aerobatics" (with me and very little fuel), low time. However, I recently had a chance to review the logs and POH and have discovered a few things that may be "red flags," but I am not enough of an expert to know for sure.

  1. It's heavy.

    With an O320-E2C and a fixed-pitch Sensenich cruise prop, it still weighs in empty at 1142. From other threads here on Vans, I've learned that this is a pretty piggy weight, especially for a "smaller" engine + FP. Interiors are nice but not overly so. Panel is relatively generic (left side, middle is breakers, switces, and ipad mount, right side).

    If I ended up buying this plane, I know I could "put it on a diet," but is this just too much of a diet? I confess that I think the plane flies well with two full grown men on board (one of whom is a bit wispy, however) and is quite responsive, but I only have time in a C172 as a comparator (and most everything flies better than a 172, I'm told).

  2. MGTOW in the POH is listed as 1800.

    This seems to be a point of contention here on VAF in that Vans designed the RV6A at 1600 so it should stay at 1600 but others suggest that 1800 is completely doable, provided landings are gentle.

    At 1800 MGTOW, full fuel, 50lbs baggage, and my wife and I, the plane is still well within CG limits, though as fuel is burned, the CG is pushed aft, of course.

  3. Some service bulletins are missing from the logs

    I went through the log books yesterday and, although I am no expert, I found several SBs that have not been identified as having been completed in the logs. My understanding is that SBs are not mandatory (but there are at least two that I found that ARE listed as mandatory on the SB: 07-11-09 and 06-2-23) but one of the two mandatory SBs has not been completed (06-02-23).

    SBs 00006, 14-01-31, and 14-02-05 have all been logged consistently at annual.

Do these amount to "walk away" red flags? Or should I continue to consider this aircraft? I would not commit to anything until I had a pre-buy done. I'm in the process of finding someone who can perform that for me.
 
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The weight seems high, I would re-weight it to make sure it's actually that heavy and go from there. None of these would be deal breakers for me.
 
You left out the price. If low enough you have left over cash to bring this plane up to modern IFR standards.

On the weight, agree it is heavy. Before you go nuts I would first reweigh the plane on known good scales. I’ve seen a few RV POH weights that were simply copied from Van’s literature or the builder used makeshift scales. Once you have a good base line then look around with a critical eye to figure out why it is 100+ lbs overweight. The old school steam gauges and vacuum pump are not trivial in weight. Anything else contributing to the extra weight, like inverted oil, ferry tank or a boat anchor huge battery?

On the 1800 lbs gross weight, update the POH to the Van’s numbers and fly on. Update the W&B data as well using the new weight data. Verify that the CG is at an acceptable point for all your flying conditions.

On the SBs, complete the ones that can be inspected on the pre-buy. Others that required work can be reflected in a lower selling price. This is where a knowledgeable pre-buy inspection pays off.

Carl
 
Diet

Which battery is installed? A PC680 or something larger?
A huge unfixable weight is paint & filler. Can you see all the rivets in the paint job or is the paint/filler so heavy that it looks like a composite airframe?

Heavy interior, heavy panel, heavy battery - can be addressed.
Heavy paint... not for any reasonable amount of effort / $
 
Depending on price, this plane sounds like a good candidate for purchase.
You probably can get the weight down. Some Ideas have already been offered. Did you happen to note which starter and alternator is fitted? If original Lycoming items, you can certainly find lighter weight components.
Btw, c172s fly very well as designed. They do fly differently, but that doesn’t mean they’re bad.
Also, make sure those cylinders were borescoped.
 
blaplante said:
Which battery is installed? A PC680 or something larger?
A huge unfixable weight is paint & filler. Can you see all the rivets in the paint job or is the paint/filler so heavy that it looks like a composite airframe?
Click to expand...

Battery, I'm not sure yet.

Paint? I can see the rivets. Example here.

You left out the price. If low enough you have left over cash to bring this plane up to modern IFR standards.

On the weight, agree it is heavy. Before you go nuts I would first reweigh the plane on known good scales. I’ve seen a few RV POH weights that were simply copied from Van’s literature or the builder used makeshift scales. Once you have a good base line then look around with a critical eye to figure out why it is 100+ lbs overweight. The old school steam gauges and vacuum pump are not trivial in weight. Anything else contributing to the extra weight, like inverted oil, ferry tank or a boat anchor huge battery?

On the 1800 lbs gross weight, update the POH to the Van’s numbers and fly on. Update the W&B data as well using the new weight data. Verify that the CG is at an acceptable point for all your flying conditions.

On the SBs, complete the ones that can be inspected on the pre-buy. Others that required work can be reflected in a lower selling price. This is where a knowledgeable pre-buy inspection pays off.
Click to expand...

Price is advertised as $96,200, with a rebate of $1500 after the buyer provides proof of transition training (if they have no time in type).

Thanks for the thoughts on identifying weight penalties! Also makes sense to just down-adjust the POH to Van's numbers after re-weighing and fly on.
 
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Weight

You may be able to drop significant weight by rebuilding the panel with glass cockpit components. It will cost a lot and it's labor intensive.
That allows the removal of the vacuum pump too.
I don't see interior parts but some added firewall insulation, carpets, etc. Anything on the inside of the firewall could be removed.
Wheels and brakes can be swapped fir Beringer and save about 7lbs. Also expensive and time consuming.
As mentioned, primer and paint can be heavy and a lot of work to remove.
Starter and Alternator are worth a look. You might shave a little weight there.
PC680 could be swapped for an Earth-X and save several lbs. Probably one of the easiest weight savings.
 
You absolutely need to pull a cylinder and look at the camshaft, etc. An engine that sat that long may be full of rust. Low time is good, but not that low of a time!
I am not a fan of arbitrary increases in gross weight without an engineering study to back it up, especially since you mentioned aerobatics. An aerobatic maneuver ‘gone wrong’ can put a lot of stress on a plane. Do you have any idea how much the extra 150 lbs eat into the design margin? You already know, or should know, that your stall speed (which ultimately sets the minimum ‘off airport’ landing speed) is 5% higher than Vans’ design.
You mentioned getting an instrument rating. In principle a single SL30 nav is all you need; but in practice you may have to do some searching/traveling to find airports with the approaches that you can do. These days a TSO’d gps navigator is almost a defacto requirement to get the rating. Now, you’re talking major dollars. And then, for actual operation in IMC, the endless debate about how much redundancy/backups are enough. More $$.
Finally, a nit-pick: no EAB is ‘IFR certified’. What you want to see is a statement in the operating limitations that IFR operations are approved if equipped per far 91.205.
 
blaplante said:
See https://www.vansaircraft.com/rv-6/#aircraft-details-1
Note that the 6A is supposed to be 1650 max gross, not 1600.
[Some allowance was given for the extra nose wheel added weight]
Click to expand...

Although Van's originally set the RV-6 Max Gross Weight at 1600 pounds and the RV-6A at 1650 pounds, in May 2020 Van's upped the RV-6 Max Gross Weight to 1650 pounds also.

Ref: "RV-6/6A Weight and Balance – updated to reflect new RV-6 gross weight limit and to remove limits on aircraft with U-00019 nose gear legs." https://www.vansaircraft.com/service-information-and-revisions/section-14/

"Gross Weight - Sum of empty weight plus crew, passengers, fuel, and baggage. It is important because of the
effect it has both on the structure and performance of the airplane. Obviously, higher gross weights will
diminish all aspects of performance, particularly take-off and climb performance. Increased weight also
increases stall speed. Higher gross weights will tend to overstress the airplane’s structure both in flight and on
the ground. In the Experimental Amateur Built Category -- the category in which the RV-6/6A would typically
be licensed -- the aircraft builder is allowed to specify this weight. Van’s recommends a 1650 pound (RV-6/6A)
limit."

...

Aerobatic Gross Weight: The maximum weight that the structure of the airplane can support at the 6G limit
of the Aerobatic Category. For the RV-6/6A, this weight is 1375 lbs."​
The OP would be wise to observe Van's Max Gross Weight numbers.
 
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Weight
Commonly used parts in 2001/2 may not be as light as components in current projects. Cowling back then about a third heavier than the current honeycomb cowlings, just the way they were. Look at the starter & alternator used, if they are the original ones from mid 60’s certified aircraft, there’s at least 8 lbs there. Radios (boat anchors), enough said. Batteries back then could weigh 8 times as much as popular batteries currently used.
SB’s
I see these as negotiable items

You are looking/buying local. I’d have a real good talk with the local mechanic. What’s the builder/owner’s local reputation?
 
Ralph Inkster said:
Weight
Commonly used parts in 2001/2 may not be as light as components in current projects. Cowling back then about a third heavier than the current honeycomb cowlings, just the way they were. Look at the starter & alternator used, if they are the original ones from mid 60’s certified aircraft, there’s at least 8 lbs there. Radios (boat anchors), enough said. Batteries back then could weigh 8 times as much as popular batteries currently used.
SB’s
I see these as negotiable items
Click to expand...

Thanks for this info. Really appreciate the insight.

You are looking/buying local. I’d have a real good talk with the local mechanic. What’s the builder/owner’s local reputation?
Click to expand...

I kind of stumbled into this AC. Originally, I had approached the owner for a ride in an RV6 and to chat with him about his experience. It was only after the initial intro and 30 minute chat that he said it would be for sale. And now it is.

Builder has also built a Lockwood AirCam. Next-door hangar neighbor has said "he hasn't been here long--maybe two years or so--but I can tell you that he's really 'fussy' about this things." I contacted the engine mechanic who's done the last two inspections with some questions the other day and they responded with "clean aircraft!"
 
RV8JD said:
Although Van's originally set the RV-6 Max Gross Weight at 1600 pounds and the RV-6A at 1650 pounds, in May 2020 Van's upped the RV-6 Max Gross Weight to 1650 pounds also.
Click to expand...

Funny, the link, to Van's own webpage, still shows the old 1600 number for the RV-6!
I had forgotten about this. Thanks.
 
wirejock said:
You may be able to drop significant weight by rebuilding the panel with glass cockpit components. It will cost a lot and it's labor intensive.
That allows the removal of the vacuum pump too.
Click to expand...

note it already has an AV30 PFD, so the only thing still vacuum driven is the DG.
You could install a 2nd AV30 $1800 and leave it on the Gyro page. Also then is a backup to the primary.

Allows ditching the Vacuum pump, system, and a Gyro. And not a total panel re-hack.

Or a 360 Avionics MiniUni 3" for about $1000 can do the same.
The DG probably will save 2 pounds. Not sure what a vacuum pump weighs? 5?
 
There is nothing nicer than to find what you want, locally. This RV6A is 72# above average. How can you make up for it, and later as you make it yours, reduce that number by upgrades.

Start with the weight of the 2 people that will spend the most time in the aircraft..... You may be no worse off than you think.

When needed you could reduce fuel and still have a safe 3 hour leg.
In 2000 the quick build came with the lighter cowl.

As far as pulling a jug, good luck with that. Don't expect the owner to tear the engine down for each tire kicker that comes along.... It's not like opening the trunk to check for a leaky back window ... think GM products of the 70's.

You may say that if you buy the aircraft and if you pull a jug within the next 3 months and find a rusty cam, there would be an agreed upon credit for it.

It would be nice to do a W&B to get some real numbers to work with.
 
blaplante said:
note it already has an AV30 PFD, so the only thing still vacuum driven is the DG.
...
Allows ditching the Vacuum pump, system, and a Gyro. And not a total panel re-hack.
...
The DG probably will save 2 pounds. Not sure what a vacuum pump weighs? 5?
Click to expand...
FWIW, I pulled the vacuum pump and DG out of my -6 after I bought it. I also replaced a Val radio and older tube-type transpoder with a modern Garmin GTR200 radio and GTX327 transponder.

That managed to lower the empty weight from 1006# all the way down to... 999#. Already have a carbureted O-320, fixed pitch Sensenich metal prop, and PC680 battery. No paint, but at the same time I can see there's no bondo or filler anywhere.

Weight reduction is darned difficult on a completed aircraft.
 
Engine

" It has been flying regularly this summer"
Given that, an oil analysis and filter / screen inspections should tell you a lot.
If a rusty cam has been eating stuff it should start showing up as chips, shavings, and metal in the oil. Assuming that it has some # of hours on the current oil.

Of course it could start giving trouble after the first 100 hours, no guarantees. But I'd think if it has had 20 recent hours after the long idle we'd start seeing warning signs. without pulling a cylinder.
 
I don't see any red flags, only points that may limit your flexibility in the future, such as the weight.
SBs are no factor, just a negotiating point. None are actually mandatory. Some are wise to do, such as tailplane cracking inspections.
You may (depending on what is currently fitted) be able to lose 20 to 30 lb by changing a few components.
For example, Lithium battery, lighter engine components (starter, etc), LED strobes, remove vacuum system, and a few more.
It will cost a few $$$ but doesn't take too long or too much skill.
More weight saving will be possible but will cost more and take longer.
Do think about the cg location. It is relatively easy to shed weight under the cowling which sends the cg aft.
It is possible to limit your baggage capacity because of cg considerations if you are not careful.
It does seem quite expensive for what it is, a rather heavy 6A with a 150hp engine, fixed pitch prop and a somewhat limited panel. Perhaps $15K overpriced?
The panel is likely to require an upgrade to be IFR capable, would you need a certified GPS navigator and ADSB transponder?
Pete
PS What is the external GPS antenna for?
 
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penguin said:
...
It does seem quite expensive for what it is, a rather heavy 6A with a 150hp engine, fixed pitch prop and a somewhat limited panel. Perhaps $15K overpriced?...
Click to expand...
Value and prices are always very subjective matters, but I'll go along with Penguin. However, don't underestimate the huge convenience and savings in cost of a local deal and the value of trust and goodwill from the seller.
 
The weight might not be as bad as you think. Yours might be a honest weight. Many aircraft I have looked at the weights listed were recoded decades ago. On many RV’s you will find the weight in the logs was before paint, fairings and mods.
 
Sad. While doing my due diligence, someone else offered full asking price for the RV6A, sight unseen.

Bummer for me, great for the seller. Oh well; there will be others!
 
That RV will be the base that you will judge all the other RV's that you travel to evaluate.

Stay in touch with the seller.... the sale is never final until it IS final.
 
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