Are prop governors all the same?

[TASEsq]

I have purchased a 200hp IO360-c1e6 which came out of a Seneca (to be overhauled) for an rv14 build. It has a forward prop governor mount (which I think is 0.895:1).

As best I can find, this engine has a Hartzell F6 governor, but I can’t find any manuals or info on this governor. It obviously fits the engine fine. (I haven’t been able to get a photo of the actual governor yet to confirm the part number).

Is this suitable for the 72” blended airfoil prop? Does a governor have to be matched to a prop?

I’m being quoted to overhaul this governor but wondering if I need to buy the one for the 390 (also forward governor).

Hartzell Propeller Governor, IO-390

Constant-Speed Props Require an Engine Mounted Governor

store.vansaircraft.com

Would i need to Frankenstein up a prop cable bracket? (As I assume the Van’s one only suits the governors they sell).

 

[TParker]

No, not all governors are the same. The Seneca, being a twin, use a feathering propeller and therefore a feathering governor, it's an F6-(something). Feathering governors work in the opposite direction (oil to decrease pitch) from the typical RV prop (oil to increase pitch). So the feathering governor will not work appropriately with the standard BA prop.

 

[planenutz]

As Trevor correctly states, the governor you have from the Seneca is not going to be of any use to you on the RV-14.

If you use the governor and bracket available from Vans they will no doubt fit well, however you will almost certainly need to manufacture a bracket for the cable if you use any other kind of governor. This shouldn't be seen as a deterrent though, its not a difficult task and there are infinite solutions. There are a few excellent governor options out there that you could use. The critical specifications to keep in mind are - the governor output oil pressure, the need to be "pressure to increase", and the direction of control input. All governors can be adjusted to achieve correct control head location so you don't need to get too hung up on that.

 

[bruceh]

I believe that some governors can be plumbed for either way (oil to increase or decrease). The body case may be identical for both, but uses different input/output ports and internals.

 

[BoydBirchler]

I have purchased a 200hp IO360-c1e6 which came out of a Seneca (to be overhauled) for an rv14 build. It has a forward prop governor mount (which I think is 0.895:1).

As best I can find, this engine has a Hartzell F6 governor, but I can’t find any manuals or info on this governor. It obviously fits the engine fine. (I haven’t been able to get a photo of the actual governor yet to confirm the part number).

Is this suitable for the 72” blended airfoil prop? Does a governor have to be matched to a prop?

I’m being quoted to overhaul this governor but wondering if I need to buy the one for the 390 (also forward governor).

Hartzell Propeller Governor, IO-390

Constant-Speed Props Require an Engine Mounted Governor

store.vansaircraft.com

Would i need to Frankenstein up a prop cable bracket? (As I assume the Van’s one only suits the governors they sell).

You can have a prop shop convert/reconfigure the governor you have to work with a non-counter weighted prop. Make sure you tell them it will be for a experimental plane and they can change the data tag to read EXP. The F6 can be configured to work either way, you will want oil to increase pitch configuration (I believe).

 

[TParker]

The F6 can be configured to work either way, you will want oil to increase pitch configuration (I believe).

Good point, this would be an option. Although, it would need to change from an F-6-(something) [oil to decrease pitch, feathering] to probably an F-(2,3,4)-(something) [oil to increase pitch, non-feathering]. It's not exactly a configuration change in that it wouldn't be a re-arrangement of exactly the same parts; there are different parts required to do this, at least the spool and possibly other parts as well depending on the exact start and end configurations. Forgive me for not getting too specific, the F series are not commonly spec'd for new applications at this point and I'm not particularly familiar with their intricacies.

I have purchased a 200hp IO360-c1e6 which came out of a Seneca (to be overhauled) for an rv14 build. It has a forward prop governor mount (which I think is 0.895:1).

Yes, per the TCDS that engine is 0.895:1.

I’m being quoted to overhaul this governor but wondering if I need to buy the one for the 390 (also forward governor).

Hartzell Propeller Governor, IO-390

Constant-Speed Props Require an Engine Mounted Governor

store.vansaircraft.com

The S-1-79 (Van's doesn't list the Hartzell model on the store page, unfortunately, but the picture is an S-1-79) is also 0.895:1 and set for 2700 RPM.

The S series are physically smaller and lighter than the F series are, which may be beneficial. The F series also has more pumping capacity, which isn't needed for this application, so it's effectively consuming a bit of extra power that's then wasted as heat into the oil; this is pretty minor (a few tenths of a horsepower) but technically not nothing.

To Boyd's point, you can ask the overhaul shop for a quote to reconfigure the F governor and then compare the result to the price of the S governor before deciding which way to go.

 

[TASEsq]

Good point, this would be an option. Although, it would need to change from an F-6-(something) [oil to decrease pitch, feathering] to probably an F-(2,3,4)-(something) [oil to increase pitch, non-feathering]. It's not exactly a configuration change in that it wouldn't be a re-arrangement of exactly the same parts; there are different parts required to do this, at least the spool and possibly other parts as well depending on the exact start and end configurations. Forgive me for not getting too specific, the F series are not commonly spec'd for new applications at this point and I'm not particularly familiar with their intricacies.

Yes, per the TCDS that engine is 0.895:1.

The S-1-79 (Van's doesn't list the Hartzell model on the store page, unfortunately, but the picture is an S-1-79) is also 0.895:1 and set for 2700 RPM.

The S series are physically smaller and lighter than the F series are, which may be beneficial. The F series also has more pumping capacity, which isn't needed for this application, so it's effectively consuming a bit of extra power that's then wasted as heat into the oil; this is pretty minor (a few tenths of a horsepower) but technically not nothing.

To Boyd's point, you can ask the overhaul shop for a quote to reconfigure the F governor and then compare the result to the price of the S governor before deciding which way to go.

Thanks for all the replies.

Now it’s been mentioned it makes total sense - I did my initial twin in a Seneca, should have known!!

The issue of course if that the S-1-79 governor from Van’s is backordered. Does anyone know of any other suppliers?

I’ve been quoted $3500 dollabucks for the overhaul of my old governor (not including the reconfiguring of the governor as above, which I assume is more), which is about $2300 usd. So I’m thinking it’s going to be cheaper (and easier, and physically smaller) to get the S series one.

The other option is the PC5000x which is available from spruce, but not sure which model and it seems much more expensive. This seems to be the same as a Jhostroj governor?

WHAT GOVERNOR DO I NEED?

www.jihostroj.com

Am i correct that for an io-360-c1e6 (prop governor on the front left like an io-390) i would be looking for a governor which was:
1. 0.895:1 drive ratio
2. Counter-clock wise arm rotation? (I.e. the governor arm points down and at the high rpm stop the arm is forward. when the prop lever is pulled out it moves the governor arm aft - counter clockwise).
3. What angle for the arm? (I’m not sure about this one at all!) I guess from the vans instructions it would be 90 degrees? (Aka on the high rpm stop the arm is at 90 degrees to the body - assuming 270 degrees is up)

 

[TParker]

Thanks for all the replies.

Now it’s been mentioned it makes total sense - I did my initial twin in a Seneca, should have known!!

The issue of course if that the S-1-79 governor from Van’s is backordered. Does anyone know of any other suppliers?

I think that just means that Van's doesn't currently have any on their shelf at the moment, you should be able to order it though them and we'll make it to order. Not sure what our lead time is at the moment, but it should be reasonable (let me know if you want specifics and I can look into it). You can also order direct from us, or any Hartzell dealer (3 recommended in AUS), but through Van's will be the best price.

Am i correct that for an io-360-c1e6 (prop governor on the front left like an io-390) i would be looking for a governor which was:
1. 0.895:1 drive ratio
2. Counter-clock wise arm rotation? (I.e. the governor arm points down and at the high rpm stop the arm is forward. when the prop lever is pulled out it moves the governor arm aft - counter clockwise).
3. What angle for the arm? (I’m not sure about this one at all!) I guess from the vans instructions it would be 90 degrees? (Aka on the high rpm stop the arm is at 90 degrees to the body - assuming 270 degrees is up)

1. Correct. Also need to match the governor RPM itself to get the correct rated RPM at the prop/engine. Hartzell governor test/spec sheets will list the governor RPM rather than the engine RPM, so for example the test/spec report for the S-1-79 will report something like 2420 RPM (~2700*0.895). Also need to match the drive direction, which is clockwise (most typical for both the engine and the S series governors). You can confirm the engine side of things by looking at the TCDS for the engine, see Note 3 on page 11.
2. Yes, the recommended S Series governors control arms rotate counter clockwise from high RPM to low RPM
3. That Van's 90° appears to be relative to the bracket, so not something that would be used to set up the governor before shipping. Hartzell governors spec and set the lever arm angles counter clockwise with respect to the relief valve, or, effectively, the arched/rounded part of governor pad which is typically "up" on forward mounted pads. The lever angle is field adjustable, though we have multiple configurations available with different pre-sets. So, for example, the S-1-79 ships with the lever arm at high RPM set to 180° from the relief valve or "down", and that Van's diagram shows a lever arm angle of ~200°. So some small adjustment will be necessary to match the Van's drawing when setting up the installation.

For more info, please see also:
Hartzell Manual 193, Volume 2, Section 3 for more background on governor operation, selection, and setup and some typical governor models
Hartzell Manual 193, Volume 3, Section 2 for instructions on attaching the Van's cable bracket to the governor
Hartzell Service Letter HC-SL-61-277 for detailed instructions regarding governor installation, including lever arm angle adjustment

 

[propjoe]

If you would like to buy a PCU5000X, I'd be more than happy to walk you thru the process.
Fill this out, Call me on my cell phone if you have any questions ( 847 6oh niner 2612):

https://cdn.prod.website-files.com/648893d6ed845c1087937b37/663bcce5a34c4da835213f53_PCU5000X%20Spec%20Sheet%2005082024.pdf

Lever angle is as easy as removing safety wire, loosening screws (not removing), rotate lever to desired location, tighten screws, safety and do an ops check.

 

[TASEsq]

I think that just means that Van's doesn't currently have any on their shelf at the moment, you should be able to order it though them and we'll make it to order. Not sure what our lead time is at the moment, but it should be reasonable (let me know if you want specifics and I can look into it). You can also order direct from us, or any Hartzell dealer (3 recommended in AUS), but through Van's will be the best price.

1. Correct. Also need to match the governor RPM itself to get the correct rated RPM at the prop/engine. Hartzell governor test/spec sheets will list the governor RPM rather than the engine RPM, so for example the test/spec report for the S-1-79 will report something like 2420 RPM (~2700*0.895). Also need to match the drive direction, which is clockwise (most typical for both the engine and the S series governors). You can confirm the engine side of things by looking at the TCDS for the engine, see Note 3 on page 11.
2. Yes, the recommended S Series governors control arms rotate counter clockwise from high RPM to low RPM
3. That Van's 90° appears to be relative to the bracket, so not something that would be used to set up the governor before shipping. Hartzell governors spec and set the lever arm angles counter clockwise with respect to the relief valve, or, effectively, the arched/rounded part of governor pad which is typically "up" on forward mounted pads. The lever angle is field adjustable, though we have multiple configurations available with different pre-sets. So, for example, the S-1-79 ships with the lever arm at high RPM set to 180° from the relief valve or "down", and that Van's diagram shows a lever arm angle of ~200°. So some small adjustment will be necessary to match the Van's drawing when setting up the installation.

For more info, please see also:
Hartzell Manual 193, Volume 2, Section 3 for more background on governor operation, selection, and setup and some typical governor models
Hartzell Manual 193, Volume 3, Section 2 for instructions on attaching the Van's cable bracket to the governor
Hartzell Service Letter HC-SL-61-277 for detailed instructions regarding governor installation, including lever arm angle adjustment

Thank you - this is excellent information.

If I am reading the TCDS correctly, it is indeed 0.895:1 and clockwise shaft rotation at the prop governor pad.

The diagram regarding the arm orientation I posted was from the PC5000 / Jihostroj Manual. Seems they reference 270 as the relief valve. So on a hartzell down would be 180 but a Jihostroj it would be 90. (I think)

I’ve send my local hartzell dealer from your link a message to see their lead time / price on the S-1-79 governor.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[TASEsq]

If you would like to buy a PCU5000X, I'd be more than happy to walk you thru the process.
Fill this out, Call me on my cell phone if you have any questions ( 847 6oh niner 2612):

https://cdn.prod.website-files.com/648893d6ed845c1087937b37/663bcce5a34c4da835213f53_PCU5000X%20Spec%20Sheet%2005082024.pdf

Lever angle is as easy as removing safety wire, loosening screws (not removing), rotate lever to desired location, tighten screws, safety and do an ops check.

Thank you - I’m in Australia, so I thought I might try Jihostroj direct.