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Another no-BS ADSB save.

airguy

airguy

I do these things, because I can.
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I was going into Lakeland on Thursday of this week for Sun n' Fun, and you all know how the traffic can get during that show and at Oshkosh. I was coming south out of Perry-Foley from a fuel stop, descending out of 9500 into the arrival. I was close to 6000' dropping at 500 fpm and I get a call of "Traffic". I looked at the screen fully expecting one of the "ownship ghosts" to show up there, but instead it was a real target that had just materialized in front of me - same altitude, 1.2 nm ahead, dead-on track to me. Callsign CXK462, I won't forget that - a Career Track pilot building time.

I don't believe he was IFR - because in that case Center would have been warning him about me, and IFR generally is not handled that close to Lakeland during the show - this occurred just immediately west of Orlando. I also don't believe he was using ADSB-IN - and by that I mean he may have HAD the data, but he was not USING the data, because he made zero attempt to avoid, which means he didn't see me. I clicked off the autopilot and pushed the nose hard down and jogged a few degrees left to build some clearance - if I had not, our paths would certainly have converged within a hundred feet, no doubt in my mind.

https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N16GN/history/20260416/2031Z/KFPY/KLAL

If you look at my descent, you'll see the spot near 6000' where I dropped under him on manual control and the airspeed spiked.

Keep your head on a swivel folks - and pay attention to the gadgets giving you warnings for the stuff you don't see.
 
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Steve Crewdog said:
You mean like we did pre-ADSB? :BFG:
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Exactly!! Don't get me wrong.... I LOVES me my glass cockpit and all the bells and whistles and traffic and such. But NOTHING replaces the Mk1 eyeball outside. I feel like ADS-B has made us complacent. I admit I have to fight it (complacency) constantly.

My question is: How did someone "materialize" magically at 1.2nm on the CATA (USAF for Collision course)? Was the OP not scanning outside (I assume VFR also) or looking at his ADS-B scope to see traffic further out and not just wait for a TA??
 
wirejock said:
Times change. Which do you prefer?
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With ALL due respect, that is simply the wrong attitude. Times HAVE changed, and technology is an "AID" to visual scan, it does not replace it. And the fact of the matter is that it is perfectly legal to fly without ADS-B in certain airspace. I have zero issue with people who do it legally. If you're expecting technology to always save you and avoid a collision, then frankly you're going to eventually hit someone or scare yourself and someone else with a near miss.

The "V" in VFR means "Visual". ADS-B doesn't change that. Its for precisely that reason that ATC doesn't care if you see them on the "fish finder", they are going to continue to call out traffic until you call visual.
 
airguy said:
I was close to 6000' dropping at 500 fpm and I get a call of "Traffic". I looked at the screen fully expecting one of the "ownship ghosts" to show up there, but instead it was a real target that had just materialized in front of me - same altitude, 1.2 nm ahead, dead-on track to me.
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Was he not on your screen prior to 1.2nm out??
 
Notso said:
Was he not on your screen prior to 1.2nm out??
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No, he was not. I was dropping into the approach into Sun and Fun, remember - I was watching the fish finder like I was hungry, spotting traffic that was doing the same thing. Normally we get an ADSB "spot" relayed back up to us from the FAA ground system for those targets, but sometimes that fails to work or work properly and we don't see that traffic until we get a direct ping from their transponder - in which case they can be much closer than you would expect for first appearance. That's what happened to me here.

Perhaps I was spending too much time "eyeballs in", rather than out. I was fully prepared to see NORDO surprises coming at me during the approach procedure at 100 knots and 1200 feet, we've all had that happen. I was not expecting it at 6000' still 40 some miles from the field.
 
Notso said:
With ALL due respect, that is simply the wrong attitude. Times HAVE changed, and technology is an "AID" to visual scan, it does not replace it. And the fact of the matter is that it is perfectly legal to fly without ADS-B in certain airspace. I have zero issue with people who do it legally. If you're expecting technology to always save you and avoid a collision, then frankly you're going to eventually hit someone or scare yourself and someone else with a near miss.

The "V" in VFR means "Visual". ADS-B doesn't change that. Its for precisely that reason that ATC doesn't care if you see them on the "fish finder", they are going to continue to call out traffic until you call visual.
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Jeez. With all due respect. Let me be a bit more clear. Do you want old school eyes out only or do you want ADSB and eyes out. Crikey you guys have thin skins. I don't know about you guys, but I'll take both any day of the week. And Yes, I'm a VFR pilot. I watch outside most of the time, but part of my scan is the three displays plus that Lady yelling "Traffic".
 
I see a lot more traffic because of ADSB. It warns me ahead of time and help me to locate. Even then, it is tough to pick out VFR targets until I was within less than 1nm of them. These gyrocopters and old cubs only have radio. They are small and almost impossible to pick them out from the ground clutter. I am not sure if they are required to have a radio. If you live in the sparsely populated area of the country with flat farmland, or rolling hills, then it maybe easy to find traffic. But in densely populated housing environment like Southern California, airplanes do not stand out against the housing clutter. Just this afternoon, I could not see a helicopter until I was less than 1/2nm from it. It is a tough job looking for an airplane when it is overlaid in dense patchwork of square houses.
 
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Pilotjim77 said:
What I hate is when my screen shows me a target less than half a mile away, and I can't find it no matter what I do.
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IF EVERYONE would just run their (LED long life) landing and taxi lights all of the time (like motorcycles) you would see all aircraft heading towards you (except the one coming up your a$$) and most likely it would be another RV, and may see your anticollision lights...
You do run them during the day, don't you?

It would be very interesting if the FAA did a mandatory (voluntary) test period..... it would cost nothing.
 
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gasman said:
IF EVERYONE would just run their (LED long life) landing and taxi lights all of the time (like motorcycles) you would see all aircraft heading towards you (except the one coming up your a$$) and most likely it would be another RV, and may see your anticollision lights...
You do run them during the day, don't you?

It would be very interesting if the FAA did a mandatory test period..... it would cost nothing.
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Some of us fly non engine-driven electrical system aircraft. Even if we have on onboard battery that we charge when in the hangar it is a total waste electrical system and the battery will eventually die. This situation when combined with the "always on" ADS-B rule mandate specifically means we cannot equip with ADS-B out. Even if we wanted to lest we violate a FAR every flight. The landing light idea is right out.
 
Not to minimize your experience, but is opposite direction 1.2 miles really that much of a hazard? Seems to me like even if you'd done nothing, the chances of hitting are about the same as if we sat on opposite sides of my living room and threw BB's at each other.

ADSB is a wonderful tool, but sometimes I think I was happier before we had it and I was happily ignorant of all the other airplanes I never saw.
 
gasman said:
You do run them during the day, don't you?
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Yes. Flashing! I’ve still had people obviously fail to see me despite a clear line of sight. There is no panacea, sadly.

Pilotjim77 said:
What I hate is when my screen shows me a target less than half a mile away, and I can't find it no matter what I do.
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Happened to me the other day. The ForeFlight lady called out a traffic warning, I maneuvered to avoid (it would have been close otherwise), and I never once got a glimpse of the other guy despite craning my neck around like Chuck Yeager in a dogfight. So much for the sufficiency of the Mk 1 Eyeball. 🤣

PhatRV said:
I see a lot more traffic because of ADSB. It warns me ahead of time and help me to locate. Even then, it is tough to pick out VFR targets until I was within less than 1nm of them.
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This. When I first got traffic back in the TIS days, I was astonished at how much I’d been missing.

Notso said:
My question is: How did someone "materialize" magically at 1.2nm on the CATA (USAF for Collision course)? Was the OP not scanning outside…
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I think most people who have flown a lot at our altitude range, in busy airspace, have had the experience of being unable to pick out nearby traffic despite actively looking for it—because it was hiding in the sun, against background clutter, behind a dead bug on the windshield, whatever. At least I know I have. Perhaps I’m Mr. Magoo or something.

wirejock said:
I don't know about you guys, but I'll take both any day of the week.
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This x 1000.

wirejock said:
The ones that make me puckering are the ones that don't have ADSB out and don't care. They just buzz around and do their T&Gs. At least birds dive. Those pilots are oblivious.
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The thing that surprises me is how many people operate non-exempt aircraft in airspace that requires ADS-B out, and are therefore equipped with out, but apparently either don’t have (or pay no attention to) ADS-B IN. You see this a lot inside the Philly Mode C veil. Lots of cheap ADS-B in solutions available, and I can’t imagine flying in that airspace without it.
 
Desert Rat said:
Not to minimize your experience, but is opposite direction 1.2 miles really that much of a hazard? Seems to me like even if you'd done nothing, the chances of hitting are about the same as if we sat on opposite sides of my living room and threw BB's at each other.

ADSB is a wonderful tool, but sometimes I think I was happier before we had it and I was happily ignorant of all the other airplanes I never saw.
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I agree with Terry about being ignorant of all the other traffic, my first experience with ADSB was WOW! Look at all that crowded traffic! But the OP experience brings up another question: WHY DID OP CHOOSE TO GO LEFT? If he recognized the approaching plane (and as a possible student or time builder)? The other guy may have followed his CFI recommendations and turned right. IE: "Head-On Approach: Both Turn Right"
When two aircraft are approaching head-on, or nearly so, both pilots are required to alter course to the right. Neither has priority over the other — they both move right and pass each other on the left side.
This is the simplest rule to remember: head-on means everyone goes right. No ambiguity, no yield determination required.
 
It cuts both ways. I flew one without ADSB. Been in the pattern 5 laps with the same guy behind me and for some reason they decided to do a short approach (CFI and student) and cut me off.

Afterwards they found me and apologized. “We wouldn’t have done it if we saw someone on ADSB”

Never mind the SA of following and being in the pattern with the same call sign for multiple laps. Their reliance on ADSB caused them to completely disregard the radio and eyeballs

It’s a tool to aid SA not SA all by itself.

That said I am equipped now but I I’m even more diligent due to my experience.
 
I wish I had a dollar for every time I have ADSB traffic, then it drops, I don’t have any and one pops up within a couple miles, I see a plane but no target or the target just comes and goes.
ADSB is another aid. Works mostly, but don’t trust it!
Kind of like a copilot..😅😅
 
RV8iator said:
I wish I had a dollar for every time I have ADSB traffic, then it drops, I don’t have any and one pops up within a couple miles, I see a plane but no target or the target just comes and goes.
ADSB is another aid. Works mostly, but don’t trust it!
Kind of like a copilot..😅😅
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That's how I feel about it as well. Frankly, having something pop up 1.2mi (or whatever) in front of me after it not being there previously does not engender trust in the technology; it flags it as unreliable for absence of traffic. If it says traffic is there, there probably is something there, but if it's showing nothing there very well could be something.

But these are the times we live in, apparently. I tend to be the guy who debriefs the FO that taking off in VMC means you are looking outside the airplane 80% of the time and a visual approach means you are looking visually outside the airplane and not visually at the flight director all the way into the flare.
 
Fun fact. A little farther north from there about 5 minutes earlier, two planes missed each by about 300 feet with the lower plane climbing into the other plane.
 

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gasman said:
IF EVERYONE would just run their (LED long life) landing and taxi lights all of the time (like motorcycles) you would see all aircraft heading towards you (except the one coming up your a$$) and most likely it would be another RV, and may see your anticollision lights...
You do run them during the day, don't you?

It would be very interesting if the FAA did a mandatory test period..... it would cost nothing.
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Just a couple of observations about this:

Many, Many, Many years ago. one of the modules in h.s. gym class was archery. The very first day, coach said if "I see anybody shooting up in the air, you get an F for the semester. Because if an arrow is coming back down straight at somebody, they're gonna be the only person in this class that can't see it." Then he pointed an arrow (not in a bow, just in his hand) at each of us to demonstrate how small the cross section of an arrow would be if it was coming at you head on.

That stuck with me when I started flying. the lowest cross sectional area of an airplane is when it's pointed directly at you or directly away from you. Throw in the fact that there's no relative motion, and you can see the situation conspiring against your ability to see other traffic in the one time that you need to see it the most. We all learned that in PPL ground school, but nothing made it stick like realizing as a teenager that I wouldn't be able to see that arrow.

So yeah. I'm 100% pro landing lights on all the time.

So why don't people do it? I think it's probably for a couple of reasons.

For decades, we didn't fly around with landing lights on because they weren't LEDs. It was beaten into us to not burn out the landing lights by leaving them on all the time.

Also, a very common practices that us old guys used was that you switched your landing light on when you got your landing clearance. It's an easy life hack so that if you're distracted in a busy cockpit you don't find yourself 5 minutes later saying; "did he clear me to land or just say continue? maybe I'd better check."

The problem this causes is that on modern Cessnas, the lights are on a 3 position toggle. Down is off, center is taxi/recog, up is landing. I do a lot of 141 prog checks, annual insurance checks, BFR's etc. and it's pretty common to see pilots fly around in recog and then flip that switch up to land when they're approaching the airport. Even new student pilots who've never flown anything other than airplanes with LED lights. They don't know why they do it, it's just the way they were taught.

The problem with this, is that the center position puts the landing lights in wig-wag mode in the air, so if you follow what we taught and learned for decades, by flipping that switch up for a daytime landing you're taking the lights out of wig-wag mode in the potentially crowded airport environment when they are the most beneficial.

Take this for what it's worth. I don't know if there's actually a significant lesson to be learned for most of the folks here other than that it's really hard to change old behaviors, and those behaviors get passed on generationally from old instructors. Just food for thought.
 
I think I found where this occurred. The only other plane I see on the FlightRadar24 is an RV-4 coming out of Lakeland slightly to your right. He was at 5150. You were at 57 and change and he had altered his course to the left as did you. So that's probably not your guy.

Where you went from a +300 climb to a 1900 fpm descent was a moment later and there were two planes ahead of you - one, another RV4 - both were at 7000 while you were now below 5000. When you passed each other, he was near 8000 and climbing (A Cessna Chancellor, by the way)

Screenshot_20-4-2026_91959_www.flightradar24.com.jpeg

CXK462 blocks its data so I can't see what he was up to but in the context of the other traffic that was out there, there was some interesting stuff going on at that point. That must've been a ride that got the heartbeat going.
 
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RV8iator said:
I wish I had a dollar for every time I have ADSB traffic, then it drops, I don’t have any and one pops up within a couple miles, I see a plane but no target or the target just comes and goes.
ADSB is another aid. Works mostly, but don’t trust it!
Kind of like a copilot..😅😅
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like most electronic devices, there are times when it can see a false echo, so you can't see anything visually. The Standard protocol is to turn right of course until "clear of object". All flight has it's challenges, so we fly with that knowledge or stay on the ground, at least I do.
 
Desert Rat said:
the lowest cross sectional area of an airplane is when it's pointed directly at you or directly away from you. Throw in the fact that there's no relative motion, and you can see the situation conspiring against your ability to see other traffic in the one time that you need to see it the most.
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And GA aircraft are visually small targets until suddenly they aren't. Here's a relevant diagram that I saw recently:

1776697683042.png
 
For a thread titled “No BS ADSB Save”, there’s sure a lot of BS ! (Kidding).
Im happy to have ADSB in my new panel upgrade. I hope it is a decent tool, but I don’t see changing my scan or flying awareness. We shall see.
When a a buddy of mine first put it in his airplane his comment was ““wow” there sure a lot of airplanes out there you never see.” I asked if that was helpful and he responded, “there’s sure a lot of airplanes out there you never see.”…..
 
In reference to the treads about ADSB;
When I was earning my PP, I had a eagle eye. My instructor was blown away with how I could spot other aircraft with ease. I felt pretty confident about my ability, then I picked up ADSB IN and found out I was really not seeing but a small amount of the traffic that was around me. I learned that my confidence was due to being a novice.
 
LettersFromFlyoverCountry said:
I think I found where this occurred. The only other plane I see on the FlightRadar24 is an RV-4 coming out of Lakeland slightly to your right. He was at 5150. You were at 57 and change and he had altered his course to the left as did you. So that's probably not your guy.

Where you went from a +300 climb to a 1900 fpm descent was a moment later and there were two planes ahead of you - one, another RV4 - both were at 7000 while you were now below 5000. When you passed each other, he was near 8000 and climbing (A Cessna Chancellor, by the way)

View attachment 115573

CXK462 blocks its data so I can't see what he was up to but in the context of the other traffic that was out there, there was some interesting stuff going on at that point. That must've been a ride that got the heartbeat going.
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"got the heartbeat going" - mostly my mouth. By the time I spotted him, I knew I could avoid him - but I said some unchristian things anyway.

This was not the closes to a mid-air I've come, that award goes to a non-electric cub in the conga line at Oshkosh that came within 50 feet, but this one had a lot more closing speed.
 
with basic med and even sport pilot, i would wager half of pilots are sparrow/penguin-eyed (mark 3.0 or worse). ads-b in/out is proven to improve safety. no need to knock it. if only we all had 20/15 vision until age 75.

cheers
 
jliltd said:
Some of us fly non engine-driven electrical system aircraft. Even if we have on onboard battery that we charge when in the hangar it is a total waste electrical system and the battery will eventually die. This situation when combined with the "always on" ADS-B rule mandate specifically means we cannot equip with ADS-B out. Even if we wanted to lest we violate a FAR every flight. The landing light idea is right out.
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There are still many motorcycles built before the headlight on law (mid 80's) that are still on the road and they ARE hard to see on a 2 lane road. That is why so many motorcycle accidents are about someone turning left into your lane.

There is always an exception.... If you have landing lights, turn them on during your flight. Someone out there will appreciate.
 
I have ADSB In and out in my 8. First plane with the tech. It is a great help in spotting planes, but there are many out there without ADSB. I keep my my head on a swivel and eyes outside much more than eyes on the panel.

For my day VFR flying I always have all lights on from wheels up to wheels down...wig wag landing, nav, strobes and beacon. I want all the help possible to be spotted out there.
 
N40ES said:
I agree with Terry about being ignorant of all the other traffic, my first experience with ADSB was WOW! Look at all that crowded traffic! But the OP experience brings up another question: WHY DID OP CHOOSE TO GO LEFT? If he recognized the approaching plane (and as a possible student or time builder)? The other guy may have followed his CFI recommendations and turned right. IE: "Head-On Approach: Both Turn Right"
When two aircraft are approaching head-on, or nearly so, both pilots are required to alter course to the right. Neither has priority over the other — they both move right and pass each other on the left side.
This is the simplest rule to remember: head-on means everyone goes right. No ambiguity, no yield determination required.
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FAR 91.113 says
Approaching head-on. When aircraft are approaching each other head-on, or nearly so, each pilot of each aircraft shall alter course to the right.
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If I'm going to be honest, before ADS-B, despite a habit of head-on-a-swivel looking, I rarely saw other airplanes that were not already advised to me by flight following, and now, with ADS-B, I rarely see other airplanes outside before they are on the screen. I think it's happened less than 5 times in ~175 hours of flying my RV. Maybe my (corrected) eyesight is bad or I'm not great at spotting airplanes, or I'm just flying in the boonies. I don't know. I'd rather have the ADS-B-In than not have it.
 
Draker said:
If I'm going to be honest, before ADS-B, despite a habit of head-on-a-swivel looking, I rarely saw other airplanes that were not already advised to me by flight following, and now, with ADS-B, I rarely see other airplanes outside before they are on the screen. I think it's happened less than 5 times in ~175 hours of flying my RV. Maybe my (corrected) eyesight is bad or I'm not great at spotting airplanes, or I'm just flying in the boonies. I don't know. I'd rather have the ADS-B-In than not have it.
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Flying VFR in the Cherubs around the north Puget Sound area, we regularly see traffic outside that is not on the display, and for various reasons not all having to do with a like or dislike of technology. Its not a good place to be head down in the cockpit on a sunny day.
 
RV7A Flyer said:
FAR 91.113 says
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Yeah, I get that. From my perspective in the cockpit at initial sighting, he appeared dead-on course to me and I shoved the stick for descent to clear. As I watched him during my descent it appeared he was slightly biased to my right, so I turned left - certainly don't want to merge any more with the traffic than I have to.

I'm not for one second going to nitpick the guys that are second-guessing my decision in the air. It was my decision at the time, I only had a few seconds to make it, and you guys have days to discuss it. That's reality and I'm fine with that, it's how we learn and plan. Proceed to proceed.

Everybody makes mistakes. If I made one, I'll own it. I know for a fact that I've been wrong at least twice in my life, because I've been married three times. If anyone can show me factually that I was wrong again - WITHOUT introducing me to another mad woman - I'm all ears :ROFLMAO:
 
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airguy said:
Yeah, I get that. From my perspective in the cockpit at initial sighting, he appeared dead-on course to me and I shoved the stick for descent to clear. As I watched him during my descent it appeared he was slightly biased to my right, so I turned left - certainly don't want to merge any more with the traffic than I have to.

I'm not for one second going to nitpick the guys that are second-guessing my decision in the air. It was my decision at the time, I only had a few seconds to make it, and you guys have days to discuss it. That's reality and I'm fine with that, it's how we learn and plan. Proceed to proceed.

Everybody makes mistakes. If I made one, I'll own it. I know for a fact that I've been wrong at least twice in my life, because I've been married three times. If anyone can show me factually that I was wrong again - WITHOUT introducing me to another mad woman - I'm all ears :ROFLMAO:
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You didn’t do anything wrong.
It’s always debatable whether or not ADSB saves the day, but the only way to know for sure would have had a really bad outcome!
 
On February 7th I was out for a local flight in a low traffic area at 2500'. Two targets show up on the screen 2100' BELOW me.
So I snapped a picture...... Extra points if you can name the pilot. Hint... he lives in Nevada.

The aircraft are almost dead center in the photo.
20260207_164439.jpg
20260207_164706.jpg
 
gasman said:
On February 7th I was out for a local flight in a low traffic area at 2500'. Two targets show up on the screen 2100' BELOW me.
So I snapped a picture...... Extra points if you can name the pilot. Hint... he lives in Nevada.

The aircraft are almost dead center in the photo.
View attachment 115688
View attachment 115689
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I see 2 in the air and one on the ground. Looks like a popular off airport landing site there for the big-tire cowboys.
 
gasman said:
There are still many motorcycles built before the headlight on law (mid 80's) that are still on the road and they ARE hard to see on a 2 lane road. That is why so many motorcycle accidents are about someone turning left into your lane.

There is always an exception.... If you have landing lights, turn them on during your flight. Someone out there will appreciate.
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Gotta have the lights in order to turn them on. Gotta have electricity if you do.
 
Who wants to ghost hunt? This gets good.

Go on an exchange and seach CXK callsigns in a playback.

CXK462 is N558K, but was up NE of you Dothan to Tallahassee. At your event time of 2127Z on 16 April.

The other CXK was 639 down at Tampa.

462 however passed your event area at 1736Z, NW bound 6300' on its leg 2 and chopped into leg 3 of its 4 leg day.

Your Eyeballs may have seen the nearby RV4 revealed earlier if you saw nearby converging traffic mk1 eyeballs, but did ADSB call a ghost?

Browsing N558K's legs, it may have.
 
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I can't say for certain where CXK462 physically was - but it was the target that "popped up" on my ADSB and triggered the traffic warning. The aircraft I physically saw had wig-wag lights, which as noted earlier ARE highly effective for spotting in the air, and was a small single, quite possibly an RV (hard to tell head-on) but that's about all the details I remember taking in during the event.
 
Exactly what I am saying. I can post a string of screenshots, but your head on wigwags were likely a RV-4 and CKS462 was many many miles behind and below you at 2127Z, but HAD transited NW bound 4 hours earlier.

Is there a "glitch" in ADSB? Do we care if its attached software alerts off proximate threats but may mis ID them?

Where's Waldo at 2127z? Dothan. Where was Waldo earlier 1710z? Near your path and altitude issue, but still miles away.
 

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moosepileit said:
Exactly what I am saying. I can post a string of screenshots, but your head on wigwags were likely a RV-4 and CKS462 was many many miles behind and below you at 2127Z, but HAD transited NW bound 4 hours earlier.

Is there a "glitch" in ADSB? Do we care if its attached software alerts off proximate threats but may mis ID them?

Where's Waldo at 2127z? Dothan. Where was Waldo earlier 1710z? Near your path and altitude issue, but still miles away.
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So we've established that the data is "problematic" - there's a shock! :cool:
 
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