Airplane / Engine Logbook Entries ??

[24Golf]

We are nearing the completion of our RV9A and are trying to figure out what, if anything, goes in the logbooks during construction. We have a new factory (Vans) Lycoming IO-320 and new prop and slow build kit. Do we make entries in the engine or airplane logbook about the date of engine install, alternator install or ELT... etc??? Or, is the first entry in the logbook the " I certify..." statement that follows the building process?

Honestly, we are not really sure what goes into the plane logbooks after completion.... we have never owned a plane before. We assume, oil changes go in engine logbook, annuals go in airplane logbook, etc... of course we all know what you get when you ***-u-me!

Any guidance would be appreciated...

 

[Ironflight]

The truth is that for an experimental, as long as you have the annual statement in the aircraft records required by your Op Lims, you have legally met the MINIMUM requirements for record-keeping.

Minimums aside, you can keep track of anything that you like. Some argue that less is better - I tend to follow the same logging protocols as I have for certified airplanes (log whenever you do something) out of shear habit and the engineer's fondness for record-keeping.

AS to what goes where - I put anything that is definitely engine related in the engine book, anything that is airframe related in the airplane log, and propeller maintenance goes in it's own book. Anything essential to engine operations, such as magnetos and carbs - engine book. accessories that are not "part" of the engine (alternator) - airframe book.

Just my system,

Paul

 

[az_gila]

Note that...

We are nearing the completion of our RV9A and are trying to figure out what, if anything, goes in the logbooks during construction. We have a new factory (Vans) Lycoming IO-320 and new prop and slow build kit. Do we make entries in the engine or airplane logbook about the date of engine install, alternator install or ELT... etc??? Or, is the first entry in the logbook the " I certify..." statement that follows the building process?

Honestly, we are not really sure what goes into the plane logbooks after completion.... we have never owned a plane before. We assume, oil changes go in engine logbook, annuals go in airplane logbook, etc... of course we all know what you get when you ***-u-me!

Any guidance would be appreciated...

...the FAA does not use the words "log book", even for certified aircraft.

They want maintenance records, so you can have several books separated into different functions if you want.

One example might be to keep a detailed copy, with comments and work performed, of the checklist you use for inspections in a 3-ring binder, and just put the Ops Limitations required statement into a "traditional" log book.

 

[pierre smith]

Hi Paul and Beth

During construction, keep a build record and take a bunch of pictures.

e.g...left aileron completed 12/31/09, right flap finished 1/1/10 and so on.
The DAR will want a record of some sort when he/she inspects your airplane.

I used a three ring binder for the photos and some create and burn a CD...your call.

Best,

 

[apkp777]

I would be a statement in the log with the Heading TTAF 0 and TTSN 0. Just because it'll look cool!

Also, though not required, I would put a statement like this:

"I certify that this aircraft has been constructed in accordance with Van's Aircraft assembly instructions and related Van's Aircraft assembly drawings. Standard aircraft maintenance practices found in AC43:13 were followed. The following processes were not in accordance with Van's assembly instructions: (list all custom mods, Sika etc.)" Builder's Name and Repairman's Cert #

 

[flion]

In my engine logbook, I made an entry to the effect that the engine was installed on such and such a date according to the manufacturer's specifications in section/pages and was ops checked for proper operation. I made similar notation on my Hartzell propeller in it's log. The ops check, and therefore the install date, are the first engine run; it's not a complete install without the operational check. Subsequent notations have been for the periodic inspections, routine servicing, and the starter/ring gear replacement I had to do. The latter also included a prop reinstall and, for both engine and prop, yet another ops check.

The airframe logbook got entries for the ELT check at installation and the transponder and pitot/static inspections. Then, when it was inspected, the DAR helped me put the correct entries in and showed me what the operating limitations required at the end of Phase I. Other than airframe repairs or modifications (neither of which I've had to do), there's only equipment inspections and the annual condition inspection to log. For the latter, I adapted a checklist posted to VAF and keep a copy in a file so I will have a record of details (just did the first one earlier this month) along with a notation in the logbook using the verbiage taken from the operating limitations.

Paul is correct in that you don't need to log everything but I think you should at least log routine maintenance/inspections if only to improve resale by showing that it was done. Too much disclosure can also be a bad thing, which is why I keep my detail checklist separate. I can track all the little squawks I find and fix but they are not part of the official logs and I can use my discretion on whether to disclose them to an authority or potential buyer.

Experimentals (not necessarily LSAs) are specifically excluded from the maintenance and inspection regulations in the FARs (except that the Operating Limitations then turn around and specifically require an annual condition inspection), so you really don't need to log anything other than the airworthiness, Phase I, and condition inspections (I was wrong about this in another thread; I thought the OpLims also spelled out maintenance requirements, too).

 

[24Golf]

Thanks - Great Info

Thanks all.... these are great responses as usual. I like the idea of having a notebook or diary of little things done and putting only required or needed things in the official record.

Also, we have detailed build records and photos and use the Kitlog Pro software to store the data.

 

[Taltruda]

Bad logbooks..

A buddy keeps sending me ads of planes to look over for the one he wants to buy.. I keep finding really bad logbook entries! I understand that most builders aren’t mechanics by trade, but some of the worst offenders are A&P and IAs!!
Lots of Condition inspections that say “airworthy condition”.. some don’t say anything at all, just “all compressions good” or “all Service bulletins checked”.. This isn’t good enough.. the actual verbiage is right on your Operating Limitations ( you have the original Operating Limitations in the plane, doesn’t everybody?)
Basically the condition inspection entry should end with something similar to “condition for safe operation”.

 

[rvbuilder2002]

A buddy keeps sending me ads of planes to look over for the one he wants to buy.. I keep finding really bad logbook entries! I understand that most builders aren’t mechanics by trade, but some of the worst offenders are A&P and IAs!!
Lots of Condition inspections that say “airworthy condition”.. some don’t say anything at all, just “all compressions good” or “all Service bulletins checked”.. This isn’t good enough.. the actual verbiage is right on your Operating Limitations ( you have the original Operating Limitations in the plane, doesn’t everybody?)
Basically the condition inspection entry should end with something similar to “condition for safe operation”.

A&Ps don’t read operating limitations when doing a condition inspection.
A lot of them don’t seem to know they are a required document. If they did, there probably wouldn’t be so many experimentals flying without them.

I would estimate that probably half the airplanes I have done prepurchase inspections on didn’t have proper log entries for condition inspections and / or completion of phase 1 and aerobatics flight testing.

As a community we need to educate whenever given the opportunity.

 

[Tankerpilot75]

I’m the second owner of my RV7A. When I purchased it I did a thorough review of the logs. The initial airworthiness certificate was dated 2008 and I purchased it in 2015. My in depth review of the logs took less than ten minutes including a small break. Needless to say there wasn’t a lot recorded and most of what was there related to a prop strike, engine tear down inspection and rebuild that had occurred just months before I bought it.

My approach to record maintenance has been significantly different. If I worked on the aircraft it was documented. I’m now 2/3rd the way through my second aircraft log book and needing to add pages to the engine log book. Because I had my own prop strike in 2022 I now have a new prop with a new prop log. All my condition inspections have an additional three page inspection checklist which I keep in a separate binder. Additionally I keep an avionics log book which contains details about any avionics changes, repairs and/or upgrades I’ve done including schematic modifications/wiring changes. I also keep all equipment installation guides and user manuals.

Personally, I like keeping a detailed record of what’s been done to the aircraft. I’ve found my memory is often flawed and the ability to go back and look up something that I had done is quite beneficial. There’s an old Air Force saying that I have kind of adopted: “ the airplane is not ready to fly until the paperwork equals the weight of the aircraft.”

 

[rmarshall234]

A&Ps don’t read operating limitations when doing a condition inspection. .

Some of us do, I did a CI on a Starduster once that was being used for aerobatic instruction by a UAL Captain and compared the Operating Limitations to the log books and said “ hey you guys….there’s no log entry allowing what you guys are doing with the airplane “ Hahaha……boy did that start some scrambling around.

 

[rvbuilder2002]

Some of us do, I did a CI on a Starduster once that was being used for aerobatic instruction by a UAL Captain and compared the Operating Limitations to the log books and said “ hey you guys….there’s no log entry allowing what you guys are doing with the airplane “ Hahaha……boy did that start some scrambling around.

Sorry, I shouldn't have generalized....

Maybe a better statement is - that the majority of A&P's don't seem to read the operating limitations or even know that they exist.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

During construction, keep a build record and take a bunch of pictures.

e.g...left aileron completed 12/31/09, right flap finished 1/1/10 and so on.
The DAR will want a record of some sort when he/she inspects your airplane.

I used a three ring binder for the photos and some create and burn a CD...your call.

Best,

I simply copied the construction manual and wrote the date each step was completed on the pages themselves (or lined-through items I deleted, or highlighted steps that I skipped for some reason so that I wouldn't forget to complete them later). Prior to inspection, I went through copies of all of the plans and checked each and every item on every drawing, and marked them complete with a checkmark.

My DAR seemed quite happy with that as a record of construction.

 

[skylor]

Bu

I simply copied the construction manual and wrote the date each step was completed on the pages themselves (or lined-through items I deleted, or highlighted steps that I skipped for some reason so that I wouldn't forget to complete them later). Prior to inspection, I went through copies of all of the plans and checked each and every item on every drawing, and marked them complete with a checkmark.

My DAR seemed quite happy with that as a record of construction.

Interestingly, a build log is technically not required and in my case, the DAR primarily checked registration paperwork, the required initial airframe logbook entry, and the overall build quality and condition of the aircraft. Where the builder’s log is important is when applying for the repairman's certificate - you need to convince the FAA FSDO inspector that you actually built the aircraft. In my case, I simply presented a detailed photo album of the build and basically discussed with the inspector many of the pictures and the build process that was performed on the photographed items. It helps to have yourself pictured in some of the photographs. After reviewing the album with the inspector for 30-45 minutes he simply stated “I’m convinced you built this plane” and he had me complete the repairman’s application and issued my temporary certificate.

Skylor
RV-8

 

[rvbuilder2002]

Interestingly, a build log is technically not required and in my case, the DAR primarily checked registration paperwork, the required initial airframe logbook entry, and the overall build quality and condition of the aircraft.

This is not correct.
I am not saying specifically that a written build log is required, because there is no specific statement in the order listing it as a requirement, but the order is very clear that the builder is supposed to present documentation evidence to prove that they built the aircraft as an amateur project for their education and recreation and it does give numerous examples of types of documentation that can be used to meet the requirement, and a written construction log is one of the items in the list.
So I guess it is somewhat correct that a written log is not required, but some type of build log definitely is.
It is spelled out pretty clearly in Section 15 of FAA Order 8130.2J, 15-4b

 

[tinman451]

Build Records

What I did was to maintain a running spreadsheet showing each day's work. I gave a brief summary of what was accomplished, and I had a column which showed the time worked on it. There were an endless number of photos and receipts as well. Near the end of the build, my wife had an awesome hardbound book made which documented the entire process from start to finish. She had several copies produced, one of which went to the person who adopted my plane years later.
When the FAA came to inspect the project and issue the paperwork, I had all of this laid out on a table. The FAA guys (There were two present) LOVED the book my wife had made which documented the project. In it, the many years of time were marked by photos of my little girl growing from a baby to teen. There was no doubt this was built by me after seeing the book.

 

[airguy]

When I applied to the Lubbock FSDO for my repairman cert, I had an appointment and showed up with 5 binders of the big 4" D-ring type with my builders log, and over 2500 color photos that I had taken each day with descriptions of the work in chronological order and referenced by date to the written log. When I brought it all in and laid it on the table, the lady that was in charge there asked me if I would mind waiting about 20 minutes while she called in some other rookie employees so she "could show them how it was supposed to be done". We spent about 3 hours in the Q&A session of them asking me "How did you do this/that" and I would page through the photos to show the particular part installation and log entry for that item. It took her another hour to step the new guys through the paperwork process for issuing an experimental repairman cert, but I had already dedicated the entire day to the exercise because I didn't know what to expect - so I didn't care. By the time it was over we were all good friends and I got the little piece of paper I came for.

 

[skylor]

This is not correct.
I am not saying specifically that a written build log is required, because there is no specific statement in the order listing it as a requirement, but the order is very clear that the builder is supposed to present documentation evidence to prove that they built the aircraft as an amateur project for their education and recreation and it does give numerous examples of types of documentation that can be used to meet the requirement, and a written construction log is one of the items in the list.
So I guess it is somewhat correct that a written log is not required, but some type of build log definitely is.
It is spelled out pretty clearly in Section 15 of FAA Order 8130.2J, 15-4b

I should have stated “written log is not required”. My bad…

Skylor

 

[wirejock]

Builder log

I feel like I have that under control. My blog is always available online, but just in case Google goes "TU", I have a printed version in the physical log with Tech Advisor visit sheets and other pertinent data. Photos are included. I have every handwritten page of daily scribbles used to generate the log. I have a spreadsheet with tabs for time and cost for every section plus tabs for inventory, SB, and all sorts of other data. I have every receipt both hard copy and scanned down to nitrile gloves and lacquer thinner. Probably a lot more too. Everything is backed up in three places. I don't trust hard drives.