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A different P-mag issue

N941WR said:
As far as I?m concerned this issue is closed. Buy a set of P-mags, install them and go fly.
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If 4 hours is all it takes for you to feel comfortable about these P-mags, then all the power to ya. The track record has been: "looks like the issue is resolved," after numerous iterations, yet something else always pops up. Whether you like it or not, you are still BETA TESTING this product. Be careful out there.

Until I see *ONE* P-mag installation make it to engine TBO without a single issue, I would not trust them. I'm not saying don't fly with them. I'm just saying fly carefully with them.
 
dan said:
If 4 hours is all it takes for you to feel comfortable about these P-mags, then all the power to ya. The track record has been: "looks like the issue is resolved," after numerous iterations, yet something else always pops up. Whether you like it or not, you are still BETA TESTING this product. Be careful out there.

Until I see *ONE* P-mag installation make it to engine TBO without a single issue, I would not trust them. I'm not saying don't fly with them. I'm just saying fly carefully with them.
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Dan,

I expected that 4 hour statement to elicit some responses. What I should have said was, "I won't post more unless there is a problem."

Believe me, I know well that I am BETA testing these things.
 
E&P-mag good news stories?

Understandably most of the posts here are to do with problems. I would like to hear what the good news experiences are. In particular how many UNeventful hours have folk clocked up on e or pmags?
 
PMAG - good trip

We now have 166 hours on our RV7a with dual PMAGs. We just returned from a trip to Alaska and the PMAGs never missed a beat. We flew north to Alaska through the trench and came back the coastal route. On much of that route, there is no good location for a unplanned stop. If I did not trust the PMAGs, or the Superior engine assembled by Aerosport, I would have never made the trip.

Keep pounding those rivets.

Tom Lewis
 
me too!

We have had no issues with our P-Mags after 120hrs, aside from wiring the ignition lead improperly to begin with (yes, I did it!).

Oh and...Tom...thanks for the surprise visit to Independence during the Homecoming, it was great seeing our "OSH" neighbors.
 
My E/Pmag experience was somewhat lousy early on with an E and P combo; I had a bad Emag, a lemon I guess. It was troublesome during my initial ground runs and I sent in several times to be checked out; I was finally able to fly it, but at 13 hours it crapped out and I sent it back for good. Brad and Tom traded it out for a new Pmag upgrade at no charge; the new one is running fine with 155 hours. The original Pmag has been working great since the first start, no issues at all... 168 hrs TT on this one.

I'm pretty happy with 'em.
 
Beta Testers

dan said:
If 4 hours is all it takes for you to feel comfortable about these P-mags, then all the power to ya. The track record has been: "looks like the issue is resolved," after numerous iterations, yet something else always pops up. Whether you like it or not, you are still BETA TESTING this product. Be careful out there.

Until I see *ONE* P-mag installation make it to engine TBO without a single issue, I would not trust them. I'm not saying don't fly with them. I'm just saying fly carefully with them.
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Agree with Dan. I finally got around to reading this entire post - I've avoided it because I hate to be a naysayer on creative new things. But... wow, quite a number of issues. Appreciate that you guys are truly experimenting - seriously no slam intended. We all like to tinker or we wouldn't have built our own little pride-n-joy. It's funny, I started out loving all the more experimental stuff and now you can't tear me away from an old Lycosaur with mags. I guess I love the beauty in the simplicity.

Like Dan said, fly carefully as you are a beta tester. I just hope you guys are gaining some true additional performance/economy for all the blood, sweat and tears you're putting into it. And moreover, if there are so many issues, I'm appealing to this crowd to consider flying with one traditional mag and one P-mag. That way you can go from the tried and true to the unknown more slowly and with a totally unrelated back up that has a completely different failure mode. I know, I know, what are the chances that BOTH P-mags are going to fail at the same time, but why chance it when there are plenty of documented issues right here in this small circle.

They really need to come up with a better connector as well. That's probably OK for something non-critical in the cabin, but hanging off the back of a vibrating engine with the wire harness' sole purpose is to keep the engine going, well, not so great - even if properly supported. A regular old ampenol would have been better. After all, they don't even use connectors like that on an auto engine.

I'm sure after continual feedback to the manufacturer in the long run this will be a great product, but it just seems like this still very much in its nascent stages of development. Fly carefully and those with dual p-mags, do think about giving yourself a better "out."

Stepping off the preacher box, sorry.

-Rob
 
No really fair

dan said:
Until I see *ONE* P-mag installation make it to engine TBO without a single issue, I would not trust them. I'm not saying don't fly with them. I'm just saying fly carefully with them.
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Come on Dan, this really isn't fair. Didn't you have a significant, troublesome issue with your ignition system? Certainly well before any TBO.

I know of a guy with a brand of electronic ignition that had two declared emergencies that fortunately ended up with "on airport" safe landings. On one, he barely made it back.

I'm aware of trouble with the Slick mags etc......

My point being that ALL ignition systems have issues. However, with Emagair, the product is new and is more visible than the others.

The hours are rapidly increasing on the units. Some have had no problems, others have had more than one problem.

I'm wired exactly per the Emagair recommendations and have not had any wiring issues. I do a typical mag check, 1700 rpm, left/right/both and leave it at that. On initial install I checked what the cutoff RPM was for each. It was well below my set RPM.

The most important consideration regarding the Pmag system is how the company responds to problems. In all of my contacts with them, they have been extremely responsive and have went out of their way to take care of issues. Not only with me, but many others as well. Conversely, with another brand of ignition, I've read of difficulty with that person.

As usual, your experience may vary. I'm comfortable with the PMags and have been all over the country. I would definitely recommend Emagair. The install, overall performance and company support is excellent.
 
I'll second the Emagair customer service responsiveness. They have always been very proactive and interested in talking with me. They have also been perfectly happy to help me out in whatever manner I requested.
I can't say that I'm real happy that their logic was/is relying on the order in which the pilot flips four switches.
 
RV7Guy said:
...The most important consideration regarding the Pmag system is how the company responds to problems. In all of my contacts with them, they have been extremely responsive and have went out of their way to take care of issues. Not only with me, but many others as well. Conversely, with another brand of ignition, I've read of difficulty with that person.

As usual, your experience may vary. I'm comfortable with the PMags and have been all over the country. I would definitely recommend Emagair. The install, overall performance and company support is excellent.
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I couldn't agree more!

The issues I had relate to the way I wired mine up, which was per Aero Electric Bob. had I wired them as Emag recommended, I feel I never would have had a problem.

With 13 hours since my software upgrade the things haven't even hiccupped. (Granted, 13 hours is not a lot of time.) I am gaining more and more confidence with these units and would highly recommend them.
 
RV7Guy said:
Come on Dan, this really isn't fair. Didn't you have a significant, troublesome issue with your ignition system? Certainly well before any TBO.
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The *only* problem I ever had with the Lightspeed was my own doing. Poor wiring technique at the coil connections. The unit itself has worked flawlessly.

RV7Guy said:
I'm aware of trouble with the Slick mags etc......
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Trouble? I needed to replace the distributor block on my Slick 4371 at 1300 hours (not 5 hours, not 100 hours -- 1300 hours). Because of the price for that one cheap plastic part ($200+) I opted to replace the whole mag. That's the "economy" of Slick mags. They price the parts to encourage you to just replace the thing. I'm admittedly not 100% happy with that philosophy, but I never had "trouble" per se with the unit. It never caused me to abort a flight or land off-airport...for that matter it never caused me to ALTER a flight in any way. If I ran ROP all the time, I'd still have that Slick mag. That said, I hate mags. I'm just putting it in perspective...the mag never "let me down."
 
Can't argue with that

And I run E/Pmag.....It has not been a smooth ride.

Having said that the problems appear to have diminished.

Frank 7a
 
Good news stories?

I was the one who asked, and thanks for all the replies on this thread and a couple by email directly to me.

The one disapointement is that no one who posted the number of hours they had on them yet had 200, so we still dont know how they will behave as the hours build. I was hoping there would be someone who had managed to clock up 600 or so. Hard to do I agree in the time they have been shipping.
 
A curve or B curve?

I have ordered my p-mags now, but I have another question.

Until today I thought you could switch between the A and B advance curve in flight. I understand this is not correct, and it is set at power up time. My question now is do you use the A or B curve in practice? How did you decide?

Thanks,
 
I know there's a jumper at the connector.. with it present, it limits to the smaller advance (34 deg?) but don't know about power-up choice.. how do you do that?

One local installation saw higher CHTs than desired, and after installing jumpers on the P-mags, CHTs went back down to expected levels. (I believe that's curve "B")
 
Radomir said:
I know there's a jumper at the connector.. with it present, it limits to the smaller advance (34 deg?) but don't know about power-up choice.. how do you do that?

One local installation saw higher CHTs than desired, and after installing jumpers on the P-mags, CHTs went back down to expected levels. (I believe that's curve "B")
Click to expand...
From the manual:
EmagAir said:
The ?B? curve
will allow timing to advance as much as 39 degrees.
The ?A? curve will allow timing to advance as much as
34 degrees. We recommend starting with A curve.
? A Curve advances (up to 34 degrees) - WITH
jumper.
? B Curve advance (up to 39 degrees) - NO jumper.
Note 1: E-MAG has NOT tested the myriad of fuel and engine configurations, and
cannot prescribe which setting is appropriate for a given situation. For most builders,
we recommend starting in the low advance ?A? setting. If temps are not within
your desired range, or if you are 1) if installing on a fresh engine that may tend to run
hot anyway, 2) running high-compression pistons, or 3) testing with auto fuel, you
can use the following supplemental controls:
Use expanded controls available with EICAD (see below)
? Test with (near) standard magneto timing. With the ignition indexed at
TDC and using the ?A? curve, you can disconnect the MAP tube from
1 1
the ignition(s). In this configuration, the maximum advance will be near
standard mag timing (26 degrees).
Click to expand...

The entire manual may be downloaded here.

I didn't find an answer to your question but then again, I didn't read the entire manual. I suggest you send them an email, they will respond quickly.

BTW, you will LOVE your Pmags. One suggestion, wire them up and then plug the vacuum advance (golf tees work good for this) until the engine is broken in. This will limit your timing advance to that of standard mag.
 
A & B curve

Radomir, you asked how you would switch between the two. All you would need to do is replace the jumper with wires to a switch. The slight dissapointement is that the status (jumper or no jumper, switch on or off) is only read at power up, so without the Eicad device you cant change timing in flight.

Bill, the question I asked is not in the manual....that is why I asked. As Radomir observed, if you advance the ignition you will get more heat. Hopefully more power, but I was hoping that someone (customers) was going to chime in who had taken the time to understand the jumper and would tell us clearly his findings. Otherwise, it is a change where the negative aspect is obvious but the positive much less clear.

Yes, I look forward to flying with them.

Thanks for your interest,
 
So million dollar question is -- why would you need to change between curves in flight?

I'm thinking KIS principal here..
 
Radomir said:
So million dollar question is -- why would you need to change between curves in flight?

I'm thinking KIS principal here..
Click to expand...

You are running the greater advance curve, and in your flight to lower altitude realize you don't want as much advance.

Nucleus
 
I suggest hard timing

Steve Sampson said:
I found pictures of P-mags bolted to the engine a little scarce, so my contribution is to put a link here. http://gikonfwf.blogspot.com/2007/09/p-mags.html#links

By the way they are running (or they would be if powered up) v26 of the firmware. Dont ask me how that differs from v25.
Click to expand...

Steve, I noticed that you mentioned the electronics taking care of the alignment. Personally I would not use the software to time your pmags. ?Even though the new firmware is supposed to take care of the timing problem, they are so easy to "hard time", why use the software method? You can still orient the case the way you want it as well.

I too have dual pmags. I cleared out the factory software timing, then just timed them manually, it was a piece of cake.

Nucleus
 
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Timing method

Nucleus, thanks for the input. I have not really read the manual thoroughly on how to time the things yet, since that is still several months away, as you can see.

I am slightly puzzled that the result is different. Is the parameter held in a different location. Otherwise I would have thought the result, despite a different methodology, after they have been timed, would be the same?

A different issue. Have you used the 'B' curve? Have you found any advantage?

Thanks again,
 
Steve Sampson said:
Nucleus, thanks for the input. I have not really read the manual thoroughly on how to time the things yet, since that is still several months away, as you can see.

I am slightly puzzled that the result is different. Is the parameter held in a different location. Otherwise I would have thought the result, despite a different methodology, after they have been timed, would be the same?

A different issue. Have you used the 'B' curve? Have you found any advantage?

Thanks again,
Click to expand...

I haven't run mine yet, I am using the less advanced A curve, I have the jumper wire installed. Hope to start it next month.

The idea behind keeping the software out of setting the timing is that you won't lose that setting with some electrical gremlin. You don't need to run the engine to time it. If you read this thread from the beginning you will se a couple of examples of this occurring. Also read the service bulletin on emagair's website: http://www.emagair.com/E-MAG%20Service%20Bulletin%202.pdf

As long as there is no software problem, then yes, the result should be the same regardless of which method you use to time the engine.

Hans
 
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nucleus said:
I haven't run mine yet, I am using the less advanced A curve, I have the jumper wire installed. Hope to start it next month.

The idea behind keeping the software out of setting the timing is that you won't lose that setting with some electrical gremlin. You don't need to run the engine to time it. If you read this thread from the beginning you will se a couple of examples of this occurring. Also read the service bulletin on emagair's website: http://www.emagair.com/E-MAG%20Service%20Bulletin%202.pdf

As long as there is no software problem, then yes, the result should be the same regardless of which method you use to time the engine.

Hans
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Hans,

One suggestion, for your first 10-12 hours, plug the vacuum lines. This will force the P-mags to the lowest timing setting and will help keep your CHT's in check until the engine is broken in. After that, reconnect the vacuum lines and go fly.

45 hours since the last software upgrade and not even a peep from the P-mags.
 
Guess I should report back, since I started this thread many months ago. Since the wiring problem (which was my own fault), I haven't had a single issue with the P-mags. I used "software" timing on both and what I believe everyone is calling the Aeroelectric switch wiring. During run up, I switch the left to the middle position to test the P-mag alternator (enabled, no power), then to the off position (disabled, no power), then to middle, and back to full on (enabled, powered). Repeat for the right side. I believe I have firmware version 25, but might be 26. I last sent them back in early February. 65 hours so far.

Dave
 
Davepar said:
Since the wiring problem (which was my own fault), I haven't had a single issue with the P-mags. I used "software" timing on both and what I believe everyone is calling the Aeroelectric switch wiring.
Dave
Click to expand...

Dave, not sure I'm following you. Are you saying your fault was by using the Aeroelectric wiring scheme or that you made an error while wiring up the Aeroelectric method?

Jekyll
 
The P-mag threads have died off.

Have any of you with the latest upgrades had any problems?

For the record, with 99.1 hours on my pair, they seem to be running flawlessly.
 
Updates please

I am trying to make some engine decisions and would appreciate some updates on E-mag and P-mag reliability. Any new problems? How many trouble free hours do you have?

Thanks,
 
Tony,

I spoke to Brad and Tom since returning from SnF and they said that last year at SnF they spent most of their time resolving problems from people on the way to and from SnF. This year they said the only call they received was from me and we are not sure if issue is related to the P-mag or not. I suspect it is not as we have changed out the P-mag with a known good unit and the problem remained. It is possible the hot cylinder issue I'm dealing with is related to cooling, a bad probe, baffling, or all three but everything I am trying is exonerating the P-mags.

If buying today, I would see no problem going with a duel P-mag set up again.
 
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About 250 hours

apatti said:
I am trying to make some engine decisions and would appreciate some updates on E-mag and P-mag reliability. Any new problems? How many trouble free hours do you have?

Thanks,
Click to expand...


Of trouble free operation..I had issues early on but not since.

Frank
 
Bill, Frank,

Thanks for the quick responses. At the risk of sparking (pun intended) another "primer war" :), I have to ask... are you guys using auto or aviation plugs? Pros/cons...


Thanks,
 
No Problems

I was an early adopter of the E/PMags. There were some early issues but have not had a problem in quite some time. Use with confidence.

Most people with GA experience can't believe how quick the engine starts and how smooth it is. (Whirlwind Prop)

Auto Plugs. I check them at 50 hours and replace at annual (Condition Inspection). They are about $1.75 each.
 
Auto plugs

I find the radio gets noisy with ignition noise at 50 hours or so..Then I replace the lower plugs.

Replace both sets every hundred hours or whenever its convenient.

Cost $1-19 each...OUCH!...:)
 
Like the others. Auto plugs.

What gets me is how easy they are to install and time.

Great product and the suport is top rate!
 
RV7Guy said:
I was an early adopter of the E/PMags.........
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Darwin,
What series are you using and do you have an E/P Mag on each side?

I've got two series 113, recently factory updated, that I was going to sell, but might have second thoughts. I still love the concept.

Thanks!
 
P-mags, A to B curve.......time to cut the jumper? Consequences?

I am thinking of moving from the A to B curve, but would be interested to hear first from others who have been this route, about their experience.

What advantages did they see? Advantage at low altitude? (Its hard to get high in the UK.....airspace!)

CHT changes? I am actually hoping that this will put more heat in my engine. Its running too cool now that autumn is here. Partly, I think, because I can lean it right off in the cruise because of the P-mags. There is hardly enough fuel going through to keep it warm however!

thanks!

PS Frank, thanks for your recent reply to my query re the AD.
 
P-mag 'B' timing curve.

To answer my own question, the 'B' timing curve is ALL good news for me!
(O-320 160hp MT c/s prop.)

In the cruise, and I tend to use 22.5" 2050rpm.
The EGT have dropped about 30 deg to around 1300F.
The CHT have increased about 10 deg to around 310F (Still comfortably low.)
Fuel consumption with the engine running smoothly has dropped 4% to around 5.6usgph.

Oil temps which I am struggling to bring up, increased by about 15F to 160F. (The day was about 4 deg warmer.)

With only one flight I dont have so much data but I cant think why I would be putting the jumper back. Full power operations for takeoff the temps hit 380 but then I pull the power back pretty early.
 
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