61 knots dirty - Mosaic

[rmartingt]

Frankly, to me the cost/benefit ratio was just not there for SP certs as compared to PP certificates and I believe most pilots flying Light Sport planes were just PPs with expired medicals flying under Sport Pilot privileges - this may change now , will see.

I looked back at the comments I submitted (it was funny to see a couple specific references to my comments in the final rule!). I noted that at the time I wrote the comment there were only 7000 ish people with sport pilot certifcates vs. a couple hundred thousand with private pilot or higher. Thus I concluded the same thing you did--most "sport pilot" activity was probably people with higher ratings but expired medicals.

There were a lot of mentions in the final document to all the great things the medical process does, but in my experience a third class is little more than a vision test, can you fog a mirror and carry on a conversation, and turn your head and cough. My GP does a better job (and did, signing off my basicmed this year) and she didn't make me drop my pants.

IMO the big win for a lot of us is the repairman certificate stuff (which reminds me, I need to go get mine for my airplane...)

 

[aadamson]

I looked back at the comments I submitted (it was funny to see a couple specific references to my comments in the final rule!). I noted that at the time I wrote the comment there were only 7000 ish people with sport pilot certifcates vs. a couple hundred thousand with private pilot or higher. Thus I concluded the same thing you did--most "sport pilot" activity was probably people with higher ratings but expired medicals.

There were a lot of mentions in the final document to all the great things the medical process does, but in my experience a third class is little more than a vision test, can you fog a mirror and carry on a conversation, and turn your head and cough. My GP does a better job (and did, signing off my basicmed this year) and she didn't make me drop my pants.

IMO the big win for a lot of us is the repairman certificate stuff (which reminds me, I need to go get mine for my airplane...)

In 90 days after this hits the FAA registry

 

[talon167]

Please understand that from day 1 it has been the FAAs stated goal to completely decouple sport pilot from lsa. The lsa designation is intended to benefit non-sport pilots via self-maintenance and lower purchase and upgrade costs (ie non certified parts). There will be many lsa sport pilots cannot fly, but it depends on the market and number of sport pilots. Finally you cannot make a plane certified before one year from today an LSA.

 

[MacCool]

what's the point of calling an airplane a light sport airplane if a sport pilot cannot fly it? is there any benefit to having a PPL and flying a light sport airplane vs a regular non-light sport plane? whats the purpose of the LSA category if not for sport pilots to fly them?

I'm not aware that the change in definition comes with a change in airworthiness certificate. I believe that it just means that a much broader range of airplanes can be flown under light-sport rules. It doesn't make them light-sport category airplanes. For a private pilot, it changes nothing relative to night flying, IFR, BCDE airspace etc, but does mean that you can fly with just a driver's license.

Convince me that I'm wrong?

 

[N40ES]

I'm not aware that the change in definition comes with a change in airworthiness certificate. I believe that it just means that a much broader range of airplanes can be flown under light-sport rules. It doesn't make them light-sport category airplanes. For a private pilot, it changes nothing relative to night flying, IFR, BCDE airspace etc, but does mean that you can fly with just a driver's license.

Convince me that I'm wrong?

Drivers License Medical is for daytime VFR. If you want to exercise the rest of PP Privilege (IFR,Night Flight etc) you will STILL need a Basic Medical or higher Medical certificate. Sport Pilots or Private Pilot performing as Sport Pilot still have same restrictions regardless of the type of aircraft they are flying.

Convince me that I'm wrong?

 

[MacCool]

Convince me that I'm wrong?

No…that actually sounds plausible.

 

[j4cbo]

Convince me that I'm wrong?

Convince me that I'm wrong?

I think talon167 hit the nail on the head above. "Sport" / "LSA" has always been about two barely-overlapping things: a no-medical-required, day-VFR-only pilot certificate, and the ability to certify aircraft based on ASTM consensus standards instead of Part 21 and 23.

Previously, the limitations for those two things happened to both be defined in terms of the "Light-Sport Aircraft" definition in FAR 1.1 ("an aircraft ... that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following"), which caused an enormous amount of confusion. Now, there's going to be even more confusion in the short term, but hopefully less in the long run: "aircraft that a sport pilot may operate" is under one set of rules (defined in the new FAR 61.316), and aircraft that can get an ASTM-based airworthiness certificate are a different set of rules (defined in the new FAR 22.100). The term "LSA" now properly only refers to the ASTM-based certification stuff.

 

[rmartingt]

In 90 days after this hits the FAA registry

For my airplane I can do it now (I'm the builder). I just haven't had time to get up to the FSDO to do it yet, though I still have several months (CI isn't due till May).

I would like to do at least the 16 hour course sometime in the future (it's good to learn stuff, plus who knows what I might have in the future), if not the full maintenance rating.

 

[N8DAV8R]

For my airplane I can do it now (I'm the builder). I just haven't had time to get up to the FSDO to do it yet, though I still have several months (CI isn't due till May).

I would like to do at least the 16 hour course sometime in the future (it's good to learn stuff, plus who knows what I might have in the future), if not the full maintenance rating.

The reasonable expectation for the 16 hour course is that it will be focused on regulations. For the typical builder, if there is learning taking place it will be related to correctly interpreting AW cert, category, and class type information along with inspection standards in AC43-12 Ap. B. The pathway through he documents that establish your authorization to perform the inspection, and what should be involved according to the FAA.

The longer course has the hands on stuff. They try to cover everything you would do in a typical inspection, along with some common repairs. It is embedded in the regs for Repairmen and Mechanics to only perform activities they have demonstrated before. The intention of the course is to cover all of the subjects enough that you meet that requirement. Some items are covered more than others. Just by example, in my opinion there was an overemphasis on identifying hardware, and there could be more content on the BRS subject. Prop inspection and repair was just right. All three were good enough for me to feel covered on my first customer 'annual'.

 

[WWhunter]

Having just made the final payment on an RV-8, all this is a bit confusing. I could find nothing on the VANS site about stall other than in dirty configuration. Plane won’t get to my location until the weather in this area clears up so I have been reading these threads for info.

I currently fly under Basic Med in my other planes, and I know those will easily fall into the LSA criteria when it’s finalized. I’m hoping the RV-8 will also be eligible for the LS category when the time comes. One less thing to worry about if I can fly without getting the BM.

 

[PhatRV]

I don't know if this was mentioned before but from the Kitplanes.com latest article, it mentioned the existing EAB cannot be converted into LSA. This is counter to most of the previous discussion here.

 

[N8DAV8R]

I don't know if this was mentioned before but from the Kitplanes.com latest article, it mentioned the existing EAB cannot be converted into LSA. This is counter to most of the previous discussion here.
View attachment 93233

It is not counter to the discussion here. The author may have been trying to meet a word count so they added mostly useless information that muddies the water on an already confusing situation.

They are talking about a change to the AW certificate that almost nobody would have any reason to pursue. The aircraft needs to meet the performance criteria to be flown under the new light sport rules, period. For practical flight purposes, the AW cert is irrelevant. For inspection purposes, it's kinda almost relevant but mostly not.

 

[Mel]

I don't know if this was mentioned before but from the Kitplanes.com latest article, it mentioned the existing EAB cannot be converted into LSA. This is counter to most of the previous discussion here.
View attachment 93233

E-AB aircraft have NEVER been, and will NEVER be eligible for conversion to E-LSA. Only 2 paths to E-LSA. 1) Built from certified E-LSA kit (21.191(i)(2), or converted from S-LSA (21.191(i)(3).

 

[AirShowFan]

E-AB aircraft have NEVER been, and will NEVER be eligible for conversion to E-LSA. Only 2 paths to E-LSA. 1) Built from certified E-LSA kit (21.191(2), or converted from S-LSA (21.191(3).

Whenever someone asks about EAB airplanes (e.g. an RV-8) in the context of Light Sport/MOSAIC, I always interpret it to mean "Can a Sport Pilot fly this? Can I fly this after my medical expires?" (To which the answer is: "Does it stall at 59 knots or less, clean?") and not "Can this EAB be re-registered as an E-LSA?" (To which the answer is "No"). Right?

 

[MechaSteve]

61 KCAS Vs0 is only of practical implication to kit manufacturers or commercial aircraft manufacturers.

It will mean that an RV-10, 14, or 15 can be offered as a complete kit with engine and avionics. That kit can be ANY level of completeness. It could be just bolt the wings on and fly.

 

[MacCool]

E-AB aircraft have NEVER been, and will NEVER be eligible for conversion to E-LSA. Only 2 paths to E-LSA. 1) Built from certified E-LSA kit (21.191(2), or converted from S-LSA (21.191(3).

I have zero interest in converting the airworthiness certificate of my -9A to anything. I do imagine a day in the (perhaps) not-too-distant future when I might be glad of the ability to fly that airplane under light sport rules with my driver's license in lieu of a medical. Now I'll be able to do that without filling in a single form.

 

[Kmdpilot]

So I assume the price of used RVs are going to go up even more? And the used RV12 prices might go down? If the RV9a can be flown by a sport pilot, if it were me, I would take the 9a over the 12. I should have bought 2 years ago. Ugh.

 

[lr172]

So I assume the price of used RVs are going to go up even more? And the used RV12 prices might go down? If the RV9a can be flown by a sport pilot, if it were me, I would take the 9a over the 12. I should have bought 2 years ago. Ugh.

This makes a lot of sense. The whole value prop of LS, was less training, lower cost airframe and self maintenace. The new rule lets you get all of that with many EAB planes. I have my doubts that in todays market any of the LS planes are any less expensive than EAB versions. Though I am sure SLSA planes are cheaper than certified.

Will be intersting to see how this changes the market. Can't really see why anyone would buy an RV-12 kit (e-lsa) over an RV-9 with the new rules.

 

[N8DAV8R]

This makes a lot of sense. The whole value prop of LS, was less training, lower cost airframe and self maintenace. The new rule lets you get all of that with many EAB planes. I have my doubts that in todays market any of the LS planes are any less expensive than EAB versions. Though I am sure SLSA planes are cheaper than certified.

Will be intersting to see how this changes the market. Can't really see why anyone would buy an RV-12 kit (e-lsa) over an RV-9 with the new rules.

Easy build. Modern engine. Visibility and seat positioning. Ingress/Egress. Simple controls. Fuel burn. I don't mean to put one over the other, but people do have different priorities.

The RV-916 is incredibly compelling. If there was an ELSA kit for that it would no doubt stand out over everything else for me.

 

[Mel]

61 KCAS Vs0 is only of practical implication to kit manufacturers or commercial aircraft manufacturers.

It will mean that an RV-10, 14, or 15 can be offered as a complete kit with engine and avionics. That kit can be ANY level of completeness. It could be just bolt the wings on and fly.

Not quite that simple. To qualify for E-LSA an S-LSA must be built and certificated first. Then the kit must be certified as meeting the same standards as the S-LSA. And remember, if this were to happen, you would have to build the kit exactly per the plans with no mods.
That means you would have to buy everything from Vans; engine, prop, instruments, avionics, etc.
Be careful what you wish for!

 

[AeroEngineer]

So I assume the price of used RVs are going to go up even more? And the used RV12 prices might go down?

Ever since MOSAIC was first announced years and years ago, my expectation has been that, yes; When it passes, we'd see a drop in prices of "pre-MOSAIC LSAs" (old compliant airplanes like Champs and Taylorcrafts, new S-LSAs like Sling 2s and RV-12s, and experimentals that meet the old LSA requirements like CH-701s and Sonexes) and an increase in price in whatever becomes the new best airplanes that a Sport Pilot could fly.

There is definitely a "no medical needed" premium to airplane prices. Ercoupes that have been STC'd to 1,400 pounds MTOW cost less than Ercoupes that can be flown by (pre-MOSAIC) Sport Pilots!

And then the FAA threw us this bone about EAB maintenance, so, yeah, it would make sense for EAB prices to go up too, with increased demand.

 

[Kmdpilot]

Easy build. Modern engine. Visibility and seat positioning. Ingress/Egress. Simple controls. Fuel burn. I don't mean to put one over the other, but people do have different priorities.

The RV-916 is incredibly compelling. If there was an ELSA kit for that it would no doubt stand out over everything else for me.

For sure. I love the RV12. the visibility and efficiency is amazing. But for a stable cross country traveler, I would take an RV9a over it any day of the week when looking at prebuilt ones. If building one, the 12 is much easier and quicker to build. IN the current used market, the RV12IS and RV9a tend to sit around the same asking prices. I suspect that the 9a market will see an increase in price as a lot of people prefer a little faster aircraft.

 

[Brantel]

Will be intersting to see how this changes the market. Can't really see why anyone would buy an RV-12 kit (e-lsa) over an RV-9 with the new rules.

There are lots of reasons. However, my reasons may not align with somebody else’s reasons.

 

[Brantel]

Ever since MOSAIC was first announced years and years ago, my expectation has been that, yes; When it passes, we'd see a drop in prices of "pre-MOSAIC LSAs" (old compliant airplanes like Champs and Taylorcrafts, new S-LSAs like Sling 2s and RV-12s, and experimentals that meet the old LSA requirements like CH-701s and Sonexes) and an increase in price in whatever becomes the new best airplanes that a Sport Pilot could fly.

There is definitely a "no medical needed" premium to airplane prices. Ercoupes that have been STC'd to 1,400 pounds MTOW cost less than Ercoupes that can be flown by (pre-MOSAIC) Sport Pilots!

And then the FAA threw us this bone about EAB maintenance, so, yeah, it would make sense for EAB prices to go up too, with increased demand.

Yet Vans just announced a bunch of upgrades for the 2026 RV12IS along with a price tag of over $250K for the S-LSA IFR trainer. That is an all time high best I can tell.

Some of the upgrades are intended to make it more viable to fly the 12 in actual IMC. Nope! That ain’t gonna happen with this guy. There are many reasons why the 12 does not belong there even if you do put a heated pitot, alternate air and additional alternator on it!

 

[j4cbo]

Ever since MOSAIC was first announced years and years ago, my expectation has been that, yes; When it passes, we'd see a drop in prices of "pre-MOSAIC LSAs" (old compliant airplanes like Champs and Taylorcrafts, new S-LSAs like Sling 2s and RV-12s, and experimentals that meet the old LSA requirements like CH-701s and Sonexes) and an increase in price in whatever becomes the new best airplanes that a Sport Pilot could fly.

I was bracing myself for this as well. But then I met a number of other RV-12 owners at Oshkosh and Sun ‘n Fun, and the vast majority of them were private pilots operating with a medical or BasicMed - very few other sport pilots. Not sure if that’s a representative sample of the market but it was a surprise to me. I’ll be curious to see what happens to prices in the near term.

 

[N8DAV8R]

I was bracing myself for this as well. But then I met a number of other RV-12 owners at Oshkosh and Sun ‘n Fun, and the vast majority of them were private pilots operating with a medical or BasicMed - very few other sport pilots. Not sure if that’s a representative sample of the market but it was a surprise to me. I’ll be curious to see what happens to prices in the near term.

Private, on basic med here. My teenage daughter with a medical is doing flight training now and it would be hard to find a better time builder than a -12is. It's a great airplane.

The idea it's only owned by old guys with no other options is a silly myth. It's a great little airplane. I have no intention of selling mine but I have friends who have flown with me and really want one once they do, I would be glad to see the market settle some so they have access. Not likely, there rule change is just going to bring more pilots into the fold.

 

[RayJay]

I was bracing myself for this as well. But then I met a number of other RV-12 owners at Oshkosh and Sun ‘n Fun, and the vast majority of them were private pilots operating with a medical or BasicMed - very few other sport pilots. Not sure if that’s a representative sample of the market but it was a surprise to me. I’ll be curious to see what happens to prices in the near term.

Yea I think a lot of people are flying RV12s because they're more economical. People that want economical airplanes aren't going to go away.

 

[talon167]

Yet Vans just announced a bunch of upgrades for the 2026 RV12IS along with a price tag of over $250K for the S-LSA IFR trainer. That is an all time high best I can tell.

Some of the upgrades are intended to make it more viable to fly the 12 in actual IMC. Nope! That ain’t gonna happen with this guy. There are many reasons why the 12 does not belong there even if you do put a heated pitot, alternate air and additional alternator on it!

What about summer days where there is a thick layer from ~4000 to 5k feet and you just want to get on top?

 

[Wingz4lifv]

Yet Vans just announced a bunch of upgrades for the 2026 RV12IS along with a price tag of over $250K for the S-LSA IFR trainer. That is an all time high best I can tell.

Some of the upgrades are intended to make it more viable to fly the 12 in actual IMC. Nope! That ain’t gonna happen with this guy. There are many reasons why the 12 does not belong there even if you do put a heated pitot, alternate air and additional alternator on it!

New to the forums and experimental aircraft. Both of my kids getting all their ratings with a ‘75 Piper warrior which is a stable,VFR/IFR platform albeit expensive to upgrade and maintain. We rarely carry anyone in the back. I plan on finding a Rv12 to get a ride in to see if it could be a viable replacement to the warrior. Taking a course to do my own conditional inspections and cheaper to equip with glass along with low fuel burns is alluring. That being said, Could you tell me what you don’t like about it being in IMC? Stability with the wing loading?

 

[N427EF]

God, I hope my instructor won't ask me about this new "Moby Dick" rules on my next BFR.
I am already confused enough with weather minimums, airspace designations and associated minimums along with
visibility and temperatures given in Celsius ect, ect.
To make it "easier", maybe they could use kilometers for stall speeds and publish the new rules in gobbledigook abbreviations like
most of the METARS and TAFs.