I found a 2008 kit for sale, all 4 kits 80% complete no engine or avionics. Was being built as a LSA. My question is are there any problems with the older kits? I know the 12 kits have been updated. I’m fairly new to the 12 and LAS aircraft. My understanding is it must use the ULS engine, any issues buying a used engine, or do I have to buy it new through vans, along with the avionics to qualify as LSA? Do I have to complete it as a LSA? If not does it mater one way or the other. IE desirability or resale? Or should I just avoid this kit all together? Any input would be greatly appreciated.
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2008 12 kit question
- Thread starter N8857a
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smokediver576
Member
Hey Kevin,
I was in a similar situation last year. Purchased a 2010 kit still in the crates. No real issues other than there are a ton of service bulletins and notices you will need to track down and document. Some small, some big. Like the nose gear one. I factored in about $3k to cover all the updates and such. There are times where you have to flip back and forth between the old build instructions and the updated ones. Overall, I saved a ton by going this route. I would say that unless you are getting the kit for 40% off or more I would not got that route. Make sure to calculate what a new kit would cost "total" with shipping and tax to calculate the correct discount. For me, I also had to have a hot shot freight it from TX which cost me an additional $2k. Just for example, I got a complete 2010 RV12 ULS still in the crates (everything minus engine and avionics) for $12k. So I'm at $12k + $2k + 3K = $17k which I felt was a pretty good deal.
scottmillhouse
Well Known Member
As noted there are lots of update on the legacy 12. To answer your other question if built as an E-AB you can deviate and use a used engine and make any changes you want but for E-LSA, Vans have to have records of sale of the entire kit including new engine and avionics with no deviation from plans. That gives you a standard ASTM airplane with a 5 hour test period as opposed to 40 hours for E-AB. In addition your value for future resale will drop more than the difference in cost between the new and used components.
smokediver576
Member
Glad you brought that up Scott. Yes, if you are going ELSA you want to confirm with Vans ahead of the sale to make sure the builder number can be transferred to you. If not, the kit is worth WAYYYY less in my view.
Great Advice, I called Vans and yes to be ELSA you must order engine and avionics through them. You can build it as a EAB and get a used engine however they do not seem to sell a FWF kit for the 12 and would have to figure out how to piece one together. Current price on the FWF kit is about 40K and around 18K for avionics. 58K plus the price of the classic 12 kit used.
scottmillhouse
Well Known Member
I'm finishing an orphaned Legacy myself. Note plus painting, taxes, DAR inspection about $1000 in misc. building supplies &, epoxy, stick grips and over $1000 for necessaries like sump heater, canopy sun shade, canopy cover, cowl plugs, tow bar, etc. plus spare parts, supply of oil and filters. Say add about $10k more if you paint yourself and $20k if hired out. Also should have an Ipad and/or handheld GPS for backup and headsets plus your checkout and insurance. Pushing $100k by time your done even with old kit savings.
12vaitor
Well Known Member
As the kit is 80% complete you will save a bunch of build time. If your objective is a lower cost build, I would suggest going EAB and finding a Rotax 912 ULS to install. The parts needed are all identified in the drawings so ordering them should not be a problem. These is really no advantage to ELSA vs EAB for resale value if that is a concern, the engine and avionics selection will have a greater impact on the resale market. If you are really adventuresome, why not install a 912iS to get the better performance.
My RV-12 is a 2008 kit vintage, and I updated the KAIs as revisions, SDs/SBs/SLs/Notifications came out. Van's has the changes in date order, so it's not too hard to update the KAI and order the right service kits. The good news is your rework effort will be much lower because you can incorporate the latest parts the first time around.
John Salak
RV-12 N896HS
My RV-12 is a 2008 kit vintage, and I updated the KAIs as revisions, SDs/SBs/SLs/Notifications came out. Van's has the changes in date order, so it's not too hard to update the KAI and order the right service kits. The good news is your rework effort will be much lower because you can incorporate the latest parts the first time around.
John Salak
RV-12 N896HS
RV12_AL
Member
I'm updating my 2010 as we speak. I don't see a problem with an old kit.
I've pulled the D180 plus every wire out from the firewall aft and replaced with the new harness for my new dual screen Dynon HDX. I've added autopilot, done many SB's and painting the interior on top of the avionics upgrade.
My yesterday ordeal for example:
I made my AP push rods from the 2014 44A-02 plans. When I installed the roll servo - it bound up when I moved the stick left. I re-looked at the plans and re-measured all good. Then that ah ha moment..... I remembered the new roll servo bracket seemed different than the pictures in the plans. I pulled the 12is plan and bingo the picture looked like my bracket and the roll push rod is longer. So, I had to re-make the roll push rod "drill and tap" again.
I'm finding I have to reference the 12is plans a lot.
I've pulled the D180 plus every wire out from the firewall aft and replaced with the new harness for my new dual screen Dynon HDX. I've added autopilot, done many SB's and painting the interior on top of the avionics upgrade.
My yesterday ordeal for example:
I made my AP push rods from the 2014 44A-02 plans. When I installed the roll servo - it bound up when I moved the stick left. I re-looked at the plans and re-measured all good. Then that ah ha moment..... I remembered the new roll servo bracket seemed different than the pictures in the plans. I pulled the 12is plan and bingo the picture looked like my bracket and the roll push rod is longer. So, I had to re-make the roll push rod "drill and tap" again.
I'm finding I have to reference the 12is plans a lot.
Amadeus
Well Known Member
There may be a value difference between ELSA and EAB. When I was told the long wait time for the first kit components to arrive from Van's I decided to be a buyer instead of a builder. With ELSA, I, as a buyer of a flying machine, would be eligible to attend a 16 hour class and receive an Inspection repairman certificate from the FAA; with EAB all condition inspections would be required to be hired out.
I cannot say what that value difference actually is as I was only interested in buying an ELSA for not only the Inspection certificate but also knowing that the build was completed in accordance with the SLSA standard with no builder variations included. Perhaps there is not a monetary value difference at all but just a difference in size of potential resale buyers market.
Just get flying an RV12 however, whenever and whichever way you can! These are a joy to fly not to mention economical. Four gallon an hour of premium mogas cruise at 109 kts TAS cannot be repeated in any other aircraft. The low cost of flying an RV12 makes paying for condition inspects doable; just consider these future costs into your buy decision for an EAB example.
scottmillhouse
Well Known Member
There is a value increase in the other RVs when the base is a full quick build since you know all the structure is done correctly. Likewise with an ASTM compliant E-LSA you know it is by plans and manuals. The more you deviate from the E-LSA the more the price will decrease paid by knowledgeable buyers. I have seen alternate engine RV-12 selling for about 60% of their value if E-LSA.
I also considered building E-AB with a used engine and avionics and did a lot of research. You have to source all FWF from Vans and the parts are not on the shelf. They post 9 months for the powerplant kit so I expect long lead items like the motor mount could take as long. So even if you saved say $10k or 50% of the new engine cost on an engine that is probably only 10% of the final airplane cost. The engine has a history with time on it and with it being E-AB it will have a lower value perhaps exceeding the price difference.
I also considered building E-AB with a used engine and avionics and did a lot of research. You have to source all FWF from Vans and the parts are not on the shelf. They post 9 months for the powerplant kit so I expect long lead items like the motor mount could take as long. So even if you saved say $10k or 50% of the new engine cost on an engine that is probably only 10% of the final airplane cost. The engine has a history with time on it and with it being E-AB it will have a lower value perhaps exceeding the price difference.
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Phyrcooler
Well Known Member
I was curious about this as I’ve looked at RV12’s, and was under the impression that the Rotax 912iS would not fit on the original RV12 kit. I believe the firewall is designed differently to accommodate the ‘iS?
12vaitor
Well Known Member
I believe Van's states that the 912iS cannot be installed on an RV-12, however they have an interesting story on their web that may indicate otherwise. What started as an RV-12 ended up as an RV-12iS.
https://www.vansaircraft.com/first-flights/ron-and-michelle-singhs-rv-12is/
As I said, it would be an adventure to figure out the changes required but that would be half the fun of doing it (if the OP is so inclined). I understand Van's not supporting it, the market for upgrading legacy RV-12s to 912iS engines is most likely very small and not worth their time. Another route would be to use an EDGE Performance 912 which would get you Fuel Injection at a minimum and 912iS type performance.
John Salak
RV-12 N896HS
smokediver576
Member
I think one thing to consider for resale is that you cannot fly an EAB with a sport pilot certificate. As well as be able to do the maintenance and work needed unless you are an A&P.
Not True......
A Sport Pilot can fly any airplane that meets the operating parameters of LSA.
Anyone can maintain and/or modify an EAB. The builder of an EAB, if issued the repairman certificate for that airplane, can perform the annual condition inspection.
The only time an A&P is needed is if the aircraft owner is not the builder or does not hold the repairman certificate for that airplane. In this case an A&P or the holder of the repairman certificate may perform the condition inspection.
A Sport Pilot can fly any airplane that meets the operating parameters of LSA.
Anyone can maintain and/or modify an EAB. The builder of an EAB, if issued the repairman certificate for that airplane, can perform the annual condition inspection.
The only time an A&P is needed is if the aircraft owner is not the builder or does not hold the repairman certificate for that airplane. In this case an A&P or the holder of the repairman certificate may perform the condition inspection.
smokediver576
Member
Looks like I had been misinformed.... Noted, thanks!
csmith3603
Active Member
RV-12
Dang, there all lots of upgrades to the airframe on the RV -12.
You should be educating yourself to all the Rotax 912 crankshaft and hub recalls that are going to be expensive! Watch for a RV-12 ULS Deal. Grin.
Even the Rotax 912iS has crankshaft and or hub recalls! There are other options for engines, Viking and Aero Momentum ....
Good Luck. Grin
Dang, there all lots of upgrades to the airframe on the RV -12.
You should be educating yourself to all the Rotax 912 crankshaft and hub recalls that are going to be expensive! Watch for a RV-12 ULS Deal. Grin.
Even the Rotax 912iS has crankshaft and or hub recalls! There are other options for engines, Viking and Aero Momentum ....
Good Luck. Grin
An issue that was more than 10 years ago, that affected some specific serial number engines…
