Andy, unless I'm wrong, an LSA can be night or even IFR if you wish, it's the Sport Pilot that's the problem...To be honest, if the plane was night VFR, I might have had to change my plans.
Andy, unless I'm wrong, an LSA can be night or even IFR if you wish, it's the Sport Pilot that's the problem...
VFR Night LSA are no problem.Andy, unless I'm wrong, an LSA can be night or even IFR if you wish, it's the Sport Pilot that's the problem...
15% faster than a skyhawk
In the CT, I typically cruise at 5200 RPM. That translates into about 110kt IAS, sometimes 105 at higher density altitudes, sometimes 120 (cold, low and light). I'd expect the -12 to be close, but perhaps require more RPM to make the same speed due to more drag than the CT.Hey, since I am asking questions about the 12, maybe somebody can clear up something that has been nagging a new pilot for a while. That is, how fast is an LSA?
I know the limit is 120kts, but what does that mean in real life? I fly a skyhawk now and as such am basing all my other fantasies on that plane's performance. When I fly straight and level (2300rpm), I am generally making about 100kts indicated. Maybe a little better if I climb and lean, but lets just say 100kts at 3000' msl.
In the CT, I typically cruise at 5200 RPM. That translates into about 110kt IAS, sometimes 105 at higher density altitudes, sometimes 120 (cold, low and light). I'd expect the -12 to be close, but perhaps require more RPM to make the same speed due to more drag than the CT.
In terms of climb, initial climb is at Vx of 65kt to 500 AGL, then Vy of 80kt for the next 1000ft, then 95kt cruise climb at 400-500 fpm, depending on DA. Again, I'd expect the -12 to be similar.
TODR
Is this true under real world conditions (you know, apples to apples, Cessna bashing aside)? I know my example of 100kts versus 120kts max for the LSA is, well, 20% faster. But the Skyhawk has a maximum speed above 120kts too. So what is the actual cruise speed for say 75% power in both planes?
I imagine the RV12 is much more fun to fly and all the other things you mentioned are going to be a treat for sure.
Hey, since I am asking questions about the 12, maybe somebody can clear up something that has been nagging a new pilot for a while. That is, how fast is an LSA? ...snip...
I know the limit is 120kts, but what does that mean in real life? So is this RV12 going to be close to a Skyhawk, or more like a Skipper?
Thanks!
I can relate to the original numbers 100kts actual, at 2300 vs 120kts theoretical for a Cessna.
I understand the RV12 can be made to cruise at 120kts. I'll be very happy if it cruises at 100kts at 3000 feet at 4.5 galls per hour, with the potential to go faster higher up and with greater fuel burn.
Cheers...Keith
You could be correct, but I thought this plane had to be built exactly as designed and certified ...day VFR, to be registered in the ELSA category?? I don't think Vans applied foro a night VFR or better version yet??? I'm not an expert though.
Nice. That solves one of my two problems. Hey, do you guys think it is funny that it comes with now-obsolete gear ...the 495/496?
Nice. That solves one of my two problems. Hey, do you guys think it is funny that it comes with now-obsolete gear ...the 495/496?
I guess I am going to have to read all the other threads now to see what people have been saying about mods.
I wouldn't call the 495/496 obsolete, it's just different. Although the 695/696 has flying capabilities that the 495/496 doesn't have, the 695/696 can't be used in you car/boat like the 495/496 can.
I'm going to hijack my own thread here for the second time, but without reading all the other places you guys have talked about this, how much of a problem is that? That is, are you allowed to swap gear from the get-go or do you have to build it just like it is in the picture (from an instruments/avionics standpoint)?
That new unit looks very nice!! I can see I am going to have a lot of readingg ahead of me now. That's a good thing though. This plane has really captured my attention.
Remember though, standardization has many benefits.
--Bill
This is exactly why I think I am being drawn to the plane itself. That and the pulled rivets.
So do we buy one 495 and just pass it from owner to owner as need be!?
Bill is correct here. After certification, you can make any mods you like as long as the mod doesn't take it out of the light-sport limits. If it doesn't meet light-sport limits at any time, it becomes an expensive lawn ornament.Mel will have to chime in for an official statement, but from my reading, you have to build it like Van to get it registered in ELSA. Once that is done, you can do whatever you want as long as your modification does not take the plane out of LSA specifications. If you do, like add a constant speed prop, it is not just out of ELSA, it is also no longer airworthy and cannot be reclassified as E-AB. If you just want to switch out the 496 for a 696, no problem.
Bill is correct here. After certification, you can make any mods you like as long as the mod doesn't take it out of the light-sport limits. If it doesn't meet light-sport limits at any time, it becomes an expensive lawn ornament.
Hi Mel,
I am sure you are correct, I just want to get your view on one issue here.
If we build the RV-12 as a ELSA and we do a modification after it is approved as an ELSA that lets say makes it faster than permited (and the FAA some how finds out before we fix it) then we have a fine lawn orniment with no way to make it a flyable aircraft again, if I understand this correctly.
If we built a RV-12 as an EAB and we made a modification that caused it to be to fast for the rule then we would still have an aircraft it just would be no longer flyable by a Sport pilot.
I think this could be a good reason to go EAB so that there would be no risk of it becoming junk.
What say you?
Best regards,
Vern
My understanding is that you can build a '-12 as an E-AB or more likely, and E-LSA, >BUT< YOU are going to have to deal directly with your local FSDO to determine if your specific aircraft, as you built it, meets the 51% rule.I've seen a lot of discussion about building as EAB. Is that even possible? If I understand things correctly, that option isn't even on the table because the FAA had locked down the review process for new kits.
An S-LSA is factory built aircraft, period. You are allowed to do maintenance and/or modifications only to the extent allowed by the manufacturer. Van MUST certify at least one aircraft in this category before he can offer an E-LSA kit.E-LSA (Experimental-Light Sport Aircraft) Same restrictions as E-AB except that the aircraft falls into the LSA performance parameters. Individual builder works directly with the local FSDO to demonstrate LSA Compliance (note: When discussing LSA, "Compliance" is the important concept - many FSDOs get upset when the word "Certification" is used. They tend to reserve that word for CAR-8 or FAR Parts 23 and 25 aircraft.) The 51% rule still applies, but the configuration / modifications are free
S-LSA (Special - Light Sport Aircraft) What Van's is working toward with the '-12. Once the design is finalized and they are able to demonstrate compliance with the S-LSA standards, the RV-12 design will become an S-LSA design. One of the interesting things about aircraft, say an RV-12, registered as S-LSA is that the manufacturer will be listed as Van's Aircraft, not "Charlie Smeegus RV-12" or some such. This is part of what allows custom/contract assembly. To be registered as an S-LSA, the aircraft will have to be built to, and shown to conform to, the exact specifications of the approved design.
S-LSA (Special - Light Sport Aircraft) What Van's is working toward with the '-12. Once the design is finalized and they are able to demonstrate compliance with the S-LSA standards, the RV-12 design will become an approved S-LSA design. One of the interesting things about aircraft, say an RV-12, registered as S-LSA is that the manufacturer will be listed as Van's Aircraft, not "Charlie Smeegus RV-12" or some such. This is part of what allows custom/contract assembly. To be registered as an S-LSA, the aircraft will have to be built to, and shown to conform to, the exact specifications of the approved design. Any aircraft registered as an S-LSA may be used for training or rental purposes.
- TT
Thanks for the clarifications, Mel and Scott.
This LSA stuff feels like a brave new world, and I'm still trying to get my head around it.
So if I understand this correctly, unless Van's decides to build finished -12s, there will never be an RV-12 available "for hire" at an LSA FBO.
- Tom Tyson
That's correct.So if I understand this correctly, unless Van's decides to build finished -12s, there will never be an RV-12 available "for hire" at an LSA FBO.
- Tom Tyson
One cannot provide primary flight training for hire in an experimental aircraft. A CFI may provide transition training for hire if he/she holds a letter of authority from the FAA.I'm not so sure... if it is just to fly, then no. But there does seem to be provisions for flight training, and transitional training.
I know you can give primary flight instruction in an experimental, and flight training in general. Just not sure if there has to be a CFI in the cockpit to consider it transitional training. I wouldn't think so though.
Anybody care to comment?
So if I understand this correctly, unless Van's decides to build finished -12s, there will never be an RV-12 available "for hire" at an LSA FBO.
- Tom Tyson
Hmm.. according to the gentleman at EAA who coordinates the Oshkosh events.. you can. I sat an evening course in Indianapolis a few weeks ago while attending the composite EAA course. He was both our instructor in the day, and taught that course at night.
I was very surprised to this as I had recalled this wasn't the case in the past... so possibly something has changed...he mispoke, or I misunderstood.
Possibly he meant for the training to have no compensation. I will get clarification though through the EAA though.
In the below...it states (from the eaa website) that the owner may receive compensation for flight training use of the aircraft...and the letter of deviation is only required now if he is renting it out to others for (and specifically) transition training.
Experimental aircraft owners who wish to allow their aircraft to be "hired" for flight training will need to contact the Operations Supervisor at their local FSDO and apply for an Experimental Aircraft Flight Training Letter of Deviation as outlined in FAA Notice N 8900.15. Once that letter is issued, the aircraft owner may receive compensation for the flight training use of the aircraft. Remember that the Letter of Deviation is only required if the owner of the aircraft wishes to rent his experimental aircraft to others for transition training. A pilot may receive flight instruction in his own aircraft (once the initial flight test period is complete) without specific authorization. Also, a person may allow others to use their experimental aircraft for flight training at any time so long as no fee is charged for the use of the aircraft.
Individuals building an experimental aircraft or buying an experimental aircraft who need aircraft-specific flight training, or experimental aircraft owners in need of a flight review should also contact the Operations Supervisor and ask for a list of available experiment aircraft within their region for the needed flight training or flight review. EAA no longer maintains a national database of experimental aircraft that may be used for hire for flight training.
... says that the following is one of the required operating limitations for S-LSA aircraft
(10) No person may operate this aircraft in the light-sport category for compensation or hire except to tow a light-sport glider or an unpowered ultralight vehicle in accordance with § 91.309 or to conduct flight training.
So this means that if an FBO is following the rules, once a Light Sport student passes his check ride, he can no longer rent S-LSA airplanes to the former student / now licensed Sport Pilot.
I see what you are saying, but I interpret that rule a little differently. What I think it's saying is that, save for glider towing and instructing, there is no "Commercial Sport Pilot" rating. So, for example, I couldn't fly a photographer around to do aerial photography for pay.
I don't see it so much as a restriction on the S-LSA aircraft as a restriction on compensation of the pilot flying it.
- TT (Tom Tyson)
[EDIT: I think FAR 91.327 is the controlling rule here, and I think it is somewhat ambiguous as to whether it is referring to the aircraft or the pilot.
But if you look at 91.319 - Aircraft having experimental certificates, para (f) explicitly prohibits the lease of an experimental aircraft. 91.327 does not have such a prohibition.]