Young eagles- personal ri$k management flying others.

[RNB]

I’ve been invited to pilot for a young eagles program, kind of want to help and watch once to see how I feel. I have a couple concerns about piloting kids I don’t know and am curious how others think and deal with this.

1. I find many kids lacking discipline and the ability to follow directions. These flights seem to make the pilot take up a child one does not know over time. I’d rather make my own judgement call on people I take flying. There is at least one adult in my life I won’t take due to similar concerns.

2. We try and manage our risks in life with an eye towards preserving our assets. We try not to engage in things that might encourage lawsuits. We carry an umbrellas insurance policy. We are aware that typical retirement assets are protected from suits and aware that our flying liability policy offers some coverage as would the additional EAA waiver. I would still worry.

do you find these concerns valid?
How do you deal with them?

I used to be BROKE, am now doing okay and want to stay this way.

 

[JonJay]

The EAA has a form for the parents to sign that gives you an additional $1M liability insurance. So even if I fly a kid known to me, the insurance isn’t a bad idea.
Still, won’t alleviate all concerns.

I started asking parents to watch me buckle up their kid. Last thing I needed was some kid telling a parent I put my hands on them.

Take the passenger stick out.

Most kids were really good and I never had an issue. Some showed up with dirty shoes and I made them take them off. Never had a truly terrible kid.

You are the only one who can evaluate your personal risk tolerance. However, if I flew one kid and that kid got a spark for aviation, it was worth it. I flew many, but haven’t in recent years as we moved to a more remote area.

 

[lr172]

The EAA has a form for the parents to sign that gives you an additional $1M liability insurance. So even if I fly a kid known to me, the insurance isn’t a bad idea.
Still, won’t alleviate all concerns.

Sadly, $1m isn’t much in today’s world if you seriously injure a child. The attorney will add the $1m to whatever he thinks he can get from your assets and that will be the settlement amount. Though i could see some attorneys only focusing on the $1m low hanging fruit.

If you have assets outside of your home and retirement accounts, caution is still warranted.

 

[wirejock]

This stuff really makes me question giving anyone a ride. I would love to give Young Eagle rides.
Reading this thread with great interest.

 

[lr172]

This stuff really makes me question giving anyone a ride. I would love to give Young Eagle rides.
Reading this thread with great interest.

Risk is really hard to assess, based upon your unique situation . However, i quit doing YE flights due to liability risk. Though have no issues taking up neighborhood kids or grandkids. Really based upon character of the parents, which you can’t assess with YE participants. We moved to California 30 years ago with a one year old. On play dates, no one would would let you in their home. Everybody knew somebody that had been sued when the kid slipped and fell. Unheard of in the midwest at that time. Really sad the consequences created by an overly litigious society.

 

[MacCool]

I’ve been invited to pilot for a young eagles program, kind of want to help and watch once to see how I feel. I have a couple concerns about piloting kids I don’t know and am curious how others think and deal with this.

1. I find many kids lacking discipline and the ability to follow directions. These flights seem to make the pilot take up a child one does not know over time. I’d rather make my own judgement call on people I take flying. There is at least one adult in my life I won’t take due to similar concerns.

2. We try and manage our risks in life with an eye towards preserving our assets. We try not to engage in things that might encourage lawsuits. We carry an umbrellas insurance policy. We are aware that typical retirement assets are protected from suits and aware that our flying liability policy offers some coverage as would the additional EAA waiver. I would still worry.

do you find these concerns valid?
How do you deal with them?

I used to be BROKE, am now doing okay and want to stay this way.

It's rare that a liability umbrella policy would include aviation-related activities unless there's a specific rider.

I'm a member of two EAA chapters and I've flown a lot of Young Eagles events. Without exception, I've found the kids to be respectful, compliant, curious, and appreciative. It's been a very positive experience and I've never had cause to regret my participation. I rely on my insurance policy and the EAA Young Eagles supplement and find it gives me adequate peace of mind, but that's me. If someone has a high level of liability concern, or concerns about passenger behavior, it would probably be wiser from a peace-of-mind standpoint to forego flying passengers, especially Young Eagles passengers.

ETA: I've lived in the Midwest all my life. I realize that other parts of the country might be a bit more litigious than what we see around here. Not pointing fingers.

 

[lr172]

Risk is really hard to assess, based upon your unique situation . However, i quit doing YE flights due to liability risk. Though have no issues taking up neighborhood kids or grandkids. Really based upon character of the parents, which you can’t assess with YE participants. We moved to California 30 years ago with a one year old. On play dates, no one would would let you in their home. Everybody knew somebody that had been sued when the kid slipped and fell. Unheard of in the midwest at that time. Really sad the consequences created by an overly litigious society.

I used to blame the lawyers, but ultimately it is the people that choose to sue for whatever reason. Its like beer. Just because it is heavily advertised, doesn’t mean you have to drink it.

 

[rv6n6r]

I've gone through all these same mental exercises. At the end of the day I choose putting a smile on kids faces over fear of an unlikely outcome. Not saying what anyone else should do, we all need to make the choice we can feel comfortable with.

 

[bob865]

I flew young eagles this weekend. The event flew 45 kids and 12 adults with 13 pilots/planes. I flew 5 total kids on 4 flights. One flight of two kids and the other three flights, parents rode along. This is my second young eagles event I've flown for. My experience so far, most of the kids are nervous and get quite. I only had one that did anything remotely worrisome. He was a teenager on the upper limit of the age range, that ever did anything even remotely questionable. He sat down and grabbed the yoke right away. He didn't move it. Just held it like he was trying to keep it level on the ground. I let him for a minute while I did my startup checklists, but when it came time to start the engine and I gave them their passenger brief and told him not to touch anything he complied with no issues, and no issues on the flight either.

With all that said, my experience has always been positive. I've never seen a bad kid, but I'd also have no issue telling them I couldn't take them flying. I'd rather have a mad kid/parent than an accident. It's just not worth it. I've had the same worries with my niece and even my daughter not listening because they don't on the ground, but the second they are in the plane, they are a different kid. I'm not sure what it is. I've even had a chatty kid on the ground, but once in the plane I can't get them to talk to me.

Again, I'm sharing my experience and POV and yours may vary, the kids who show up to YE rallies are excited to be there and wouldn't do anything to jeopardize it. I like to think the kids you wouldn't want to fly are already in the back of mommy and daddy's jet yelling about why they didn't have the right capri sun on board.

My general statement and how I see life and YE and the risks.....I wish I had someone who would have taken me flying when I was a kid and told me that flying was something I could do professionally instead of what everyone else was telling me which was that I had to work on computers (). I didn't figure it out until I was in my 30s and at that point I already had a solid career and I wasn't willing to start over, so that helps me justify a lot of the risk. All things in life have risk. Flying the plane, no matter who is in it, carries risk. For me, those risks don't outweigh the benefits of me taking a kiddo up for a flight.

 

[Auburntsts]

I flew young eagles this weekend. The event flew 45 kids and 12 adults with 13 pilots/planes. I flew 5 total kids on 4 flights. One flight of two kids and the other three flights, parents rode along. This is my second young eagles event I've flown for. My experience so far, most of the kids are nervous and get quite. I only had one that did anything remotely worrisome. He was a teenager on the upper limit of the age range, that ever did anything even remotely questionable. He sat down and grabbed the yoke right away. He didn't move it. Just held it like he was trying to keep it level on the ground. I let him for a minute while I did my startup checklists, but when it came time to start the engine and I gave them their passenger brief and told him not to touch anything he complied with no issues, and no issues on the flight either.

With all that said, my experience has always been positive. I've never seen a bad kid, but I'd also have no issue telling them I couldn't take them flying. I'd rather have a mad kid/parent than an accident. It's just not worth it. I've had the same worries with my niece and even my daughter not listening because they don't on the ground, but the second they are in the plane, they are a different kid. I'm not sure what it is. I've even had a chatty kid on the ground, but once in the plane I can't get them to talk to me.

Again, I'm sharing my experience and POV and yours may vary, the kids who show up to YE rallies are excited to be there and wouldn't do anything to jeopardize it. I like to think the kids you wouldn't want to fly are already in the back of mommy and daddy's jet yelling about why they didn't have the right capri sun on board.

My general statement and how I see life and YE and the risks.....I wish I had someone who would have taken me flying when I was a kid and told me that flying was something I could do professionally instead of what everyone else was telling me which was that I had to work on computers (). I didn't figure it out until I was in my 30s and at that point I already had a solid career and I wasn't willing to start over, so that helps me justify a lot of the risk. All things in life have risk. Flying the plane, no matter who is in it, carries risk. For me, those risks don't outweigh the benefits of me taking a kiddo up for a flight.

Your experience is remarked similar to one of my own, except my plane didn't escape unscathed. A few years ago I flew a teenager (senior in High School and fully adult sized) who was a veteran of many YE flights (though not with me). It was the last flight of the day and since he was a veteran passenger, I stupidly rushed the pax brief. On takeoff we starting drifting left (crosswind for the right) and seemingly no control inputs were arresting the drift. We were right at Vr when pulled the power to idle and aborted the takeoff. I got on the brakes but we ended up departing the runway regardless and took out a taxiway sign and two taxi lights before coming to rest in the grass between the runway and the parallel taxiway. I quickly shut down and then turned to see if he and his bother in back were OK. That's when I realized he had a death grip on the stick. Unbeknownst to me at the time, he had grabbed the stick and put his feet on the rudder pedals at the beginning of the takeoff roll and had held on with a death grip until I told him to let go after we had stopped. Basically, he had been a human control lock. It was totally my fault for A. not giving him the normal YE pax brief, and B. for not looking over the moment the stick didn't feel right and we started drifting. Luckily no one was hurt (except my ego) but the plane suffered a destroyed wingtip & both main gear fairings, and a dent in the right wing leading edge. All of my previous 20-some odd YE flights had been with kids no older than say 10-11 and I never had any issues with any of them whatsoever. I haven't done a YE flight since the incident, but I have given rides I'm just more selective now and and waayyyyyyy more cautious.

That said, I think the YE is a good program, but you've got to maintain your routine and don't get complacent.

 

[jherzog]

My wife is an insurance lawyer -- in-house now, but has defended aircraft and engine manufacturers, as well as individuals, in personal injury / death lawsuits.

Our agreement when I bought my plane a few years ago is that she would be the only one to fly with me. Everyone has their own risk tolerance. We were unwilling to risk our joint assets on an aviation accident involving a passenger.

 

[texdog]

If you don’t fly, that’s Ok. I’ve been participating for several years. I now do the briefing for the pilots and I marshal the airplanes for parking. We fly about 50 kids twice a year. I was an air boss for years, but I quit doing that when I had several war bird pilots that would not follow directions and the brief. It’s a recipe for disaster, old folks don’t always want to listen.

 

[rmarshall234]

do you find these concerns valid?
How do you deal with them?

I used to be BROKE, am now doing okay and want to stay this way.

1. They are _your_ concerns so therefore they are valid

2. I follow my heart and not my pocketbook

3. I think you should tell them thanks but no thanks, it’s not about you, it’s about giving back / paying forward and making a difference in someone else’s life.

 

[rcsilvmac]

A lot of good comments here in this thread. I have accepted the risk and fly YE about 6 times a year. I do remove the stick so there is less chance of an issue, and I fly my "A" like a taildragger, so I am overactive on the rudders and would notice if they weren't moving properly. I also do a thorough preflight with the kids and parent(s) before they get in the plane, so I have a good idea who I am flying.

Just last weekend I flew three kids, from very small to tall teenager. Two of the kids were awesome, and I got great satisfaction exposing them to "fun" aviation in my RV-6A. The other kid was very quiet, so I didn't really get feedback. Sometimes the quiet ones surprise you. I ran into one of them about a year later, and they had spent that year flying on MSFT Flight Simulator and he a lot of great questions the second time I flew him.

I feel blessed to be able to afford this increasingly illogical recreational activity. I know I could get sued, but I could also have an engine quit on me, or get hit by a bird and blow my canopy out, or ...

 

[bonefishdave]

I’ve been flying young eagles for the last 15 years. I like to do it in the Cub because the kids love the open air experience. (doors and windows open) In addition I preflight with the youngster and explain how the controls work and that they will get to experience actually flying the airplane. I’ll explain to them the fundamentals of flight (pitch power and airspeed). Once in the air and at level altitude, I’ll turn the controls over to them. It’s remarkable how well they do.
The satisfaction I get after the flight seeing the kids beaming with pride telling their parents they actually flew the plane far outweighs any risk and liabilities concerns I have. Based on the original poster I’d say your risk assessment might be better suited for not flying young eagles. This is just my opinion.

 

[Mel]

I fly my "A" like a taildragger, so I am overactive on the rudders and would notice if they weren't moving properly.

I so much wish I heard this more often. When I learned to fly in1967, my first instructor drummed into my head that the nose wheel is for taxiing only!

 

[Robin8er]

I fly Young Eagles in my RV. I've done 40ish rides. I do want to say that I have never had a situation where the kid didn't follow directions. I let every kid fly the plane if they want to. I've flown the full age range of 8 to 17 year olds and they have all been awesome. A lot of this has to do with how positive you are and how you interact with them. It's most certainly not something you should do if you are a type A control freak. It is very entertaining when a 10 year old says "positive rate, gear up!" as soon as you take off.

1 of the kids I flew ended up getting a Ray aviation scholarship for $12,000 and is currently working on the PPL. I wrote a letter of recommendation for another, and we are waiting to hear if he is awarded a scholarship. It's an awesome program.

I can't answer the liability question, but I can tell you that kids absolutely will listen to you and follow directions. You just need to say what you mean and mean what you say. A good brief on positive exchange of flight controls and when they can/can't talk goes a long way. I always try to phrase it as friendly as possible. "We are getting close to the airport and I really need to talk to the other planes, so hold your questions until after landing" is an example of how to say "stop talking" nicely.

I also flew a kid that was struggling with school. I vaguely remember saying something like "stay in school and keep your grades up so you can fly". I gave the kid a high 5 and moved onto the next Young Eagle flight. The kid came back a few months later and the parents tracked me down and told me their kid went from marginal grades to straight A's just because of what I said. They wouldn't stop thanking me. I felt bad because I didn't remember saying that, but they remembered and so did their son.

 

[rv8ch]

I also flew a kid that was struggling with school. I vaguely remember saying something like "stay in school and keep your grades up so you can fly". I gave the kid a high 5 and moved onto the next Young Eagle flight. The kid came back a few months later and the parents tracked me down and told me their kid went from marginal grades to straight A's just because of what I said. They wouldn't stop thanking me. I felt bad because I didn't remember saying that, but they remembered and so did their son.

That's awesome! What may seem like trivial positive interactions with young people can actually become life-changing experiences for them.

 

[N10KE]

I’ve been flying young eagles for the last 15 years. I like to do it in the Cub because the kids love the open air experience. (doors and windows open) In addition I preflight with the youngster and explain how the controls work and that they will get to experience actually flying the airplane. I’ll explain to them the fundamentals of flight (pitch power and airspeed). Once in the air and at level altitude, I’ll turn the controls over to them. It’s remarkable how well they do.
The satisfaction I get after the flight seeing the kids beaming with pride telling their parents they actually flew the plane far outweighs any risk and liabilities concerns I have. Based on the original poster I’d say your risk assessment might be better suited for not flying young eagles. This is just my opinion.

YE flying is some of the most rewarding flying I’ve ever done. Yes there is a risk and it’s not for everyone. It’s worth it to me.

A young man took his first YE ride at one of our neighborhood YE events. He couldn’t afford flying lessons, so we paid for him to get his PPL in our DA-20. He joined the Marines and became a helicopter mechanic. Used the GI Bill after the Marines to go back and get his degree and his CFII. Instructed till he had ATP hours, got hired at Endeavor and is now a F/O on the 757/767 at Delta. You never know what impact a YE ride might have…

 

[jhrubos]

the single BEST thing we all can do for the future of aviation id to take a kid flying.

 

[YellowJacket RV9]

12 or 13 years ago, there was a girl (maybe 11 or 12 at the time) on the sailing team I coached, that was very smart and very interested in flying. I took her for her first flight in a small plane. I have since watched her progress through high school, the Coast Guard Academy, and now to being a full fledged USCG helicopter pilot rescuing people off the Oregon coast. That's a pretty cool feeling.

There is a liability risk, yes. There is an also a (more intangible) benefit. How we weigh those things is a personal decision.

Chris

 

[Dugaru]

Good questions.

Only a lawyer familiar with the laws in your jurisdiction, and with your finances, can give you a comprehensive idea of your exposure in a wrongful death suit. Neither I, nor anyone on any Internet forum, can accomplish that.

You may get wildly wrong advice—there’s a ton of genuinely awful legal advice available on this and other forums. For some reason people really really want to believe there’s an easy answer to these problems, and some will vociferously, and always erroneously, claim they have found it (“I can’t be held liable because I put my plane in an LLC!”). But even the well-informed views of other smart pilots may still be largely or entirely irrelevant to your personal scenario.

One aviation issue worth pondering before consulting an attorney, however, is how much participating in the YE program would actually increase your risk over the baseline. Maybe a lot, but maybe not so much. As I understand it, YE comes with substantial additional insurance, apparently puts some sort of waiver in play (I have no idea whether that would offer any protection in your, or anyone else’s, case), and is conducted in good day VFR weather. In your regular flying, you could always pop out of a cloud short of the runway on a nasty day, plow into a school bus, and be able to throw only a fraction of that coverage at each of numerous plaintiffs who absolutely haven’t signed anything. A particularly bad scenario, obviously, but you get the picture.

Similarly: the additional risk presented by a day of YE flying may well be dwarfed by the risk associated with other aspects of your personal flying situation. Not being instrument rated, not doing recurrent training every six months, not understanding your fuel system, not understanding the limitations of advisory vertical guidance, etc. etc., may be generating substantially more risks to your finances than a day spent flying Young Eagles. I’m not saying you face any of these risks, because I don’t know your situation—but again, that’s kind of the point.

 

[rv8ch]

Similarly: the additional risk presented by a day of YE flying may well be dwarfed by the risk associated with other aspects of your personal flying situation.

Excellent points. You might be able to argue that doing YE flights actually reduces your risk, since most diligent pilots would take extra time to prepare themselves and their equipment knowing that they will be taking children flying.

 

[Steve]

I've flown over 125 Young Eagles over the years and have flown many Civil Air Patrol cadets on their Orientation ride back when I was in CAP.

There are a few types of Eagles out there:
The Ace of the Base who can't wait to wring out your airplane. Put him in the backseat of someone else's C182.
The kid who was dragged to the airport by mom or dad just for something to do on a Saturday morning. The kid is usually unresponsive and sits there like a lump.
The future flight instructor. This kid has hundreds of hours of MSFS time and gives instruction the entire flight. "Are you gonna put the flaps out anytime now?" or "Didn't the tower want us to hold 5500 until outside the Delta?"
The Natural pilot. This kid flies my plane like it was on rails, holding altitude and heading like an autopilot. Holding altitude in steep turns? No problem.
The Engineer. He wants to know why my RV9A cannot to aerobatics with detailed explanation of G forces and wing loading. "How does GPS navigation work?" "What does the red line mean on that gage?"

I ask my YE coordinator to let me fly the older and taller kids who can see over the glareshield without sitting on a booster seat.
I always have the parent watch while I fasten the seat belt on the YE.
Cell phone pictures and video are always encouraged.

 

[Dugaru]

Excellent points. You might be able to argue that doing YE flights actually reduces your risk, since most diligent pilots would take extra time to prepare themselves and their equipment knowing that they will be taking children flying.

I had not thought of that! There are a ton of variables.

My litigator hunch, based on precisely zero data or relevant professional experience (but since when has that stopped me), is that flying a bunch of kids does increase the liability exposure of the average GA pilot. How much? On that question, I lack both data AND a hunch.

 

[cgeyman]

you can only have so much fun in life, and this is one of the funnest. especially if you built the plane and are active in the local eaa chapter (our chapter is building a club/youth build rv-9a). but our airport also has a 10,000 foot runway. we only fly on generally perfect weather days and with pilots that fly all the time and know their planes well.

 

[BruceW]

Is there any history of YE related lawsuits ???
Kind of like our obsession with accident reports. Learn from the past.
Any reports of past YE lawsuits and what happened?

 

[AirShowFan]

I will join the chorus of people who say: If you decide that it's too risky for you, then, that decision is probably right for you and I won't criticize it... but, for me personally, flying YEs is just about the most meaningful and rewarding thing that I have ever done with an airplane.

Is there any history of YE related lawsuits ???
Kind of like our obsession with accident reports.

That makes me think of a question: What are the accident/safety statistics on YE? Does anyone here know?

The program has flown, what... two million kids? If we have flown that many kids with zero accidents - or even with one or two - that would be pretty remarkable, waaaaay safer than typical light-airplane operations. Right?

The Engineer. He wants to know why my RV9A cannot to aerobatics with detailed explanation of G forces and wing loading.

Ha! That is my favorite. Because that used to be me. Still is, if we're being honest. (You asked about aerobatics?)

"What does the red line mean on that gage?"

Let me see if I can explain flutter in five minutes. Every object has resonant frequencies, so if you imagine a blade of glass wobbling in the wind...

"How does GPS navigation work?"

Hyperbolic navigation! Back in WW2, the Brits wanted to bomb the Nazis at night. Pilots determined their location by finding their position relative to some radio beacons, and the RAF figured out that the equipment for determining their distance to each beacon (triangulation) was much heavier and less accurate than the equipment for determining the difference between distances to each pair of beacons... And that's basically what we still use today, except the radio beacons are now in orbit, going so fast that they need relativistic corrections to their atomic clock "ping" timing in order to get the precision to be good enough... And, of course, the "drawing curves on a map and seeing where they cross" is done by a computer rather than pencil-and-paper.

 

[N8DAV8R]

That makes me think of a question: What are the accident/safety statistics on YE? Does anyone here know?

The program has flown, what... two million kids? If we have flown that many kids with zero accidents - or even with one or two - that would be pretty remarkable, waaaaay safer than typical light-airplane operations. Right?

Not an accident, but we do have one incident described right here on VAF. Positive outcome in this case.

Engine power loss forces off-field landing: builder/maintainer error

The pilot in this story achieved perhaps a best-possible outcome, but the aircraft owner, builder, and maintainer chose poorly, to say the least. They are all one and the same person--namely me. Comes now the penitent, seeking the solace of public confession in the Chapel of VAF. On Saturday...

vansairforce.net

 

[jerry98b]

My general statement and how I see life and YE and the risks.....I wish I had someone who would have taken me flying when I was a kid and told me that flying was something I could do professionally instead of what everyone else was telling me which was that I had to work on computers (). I didn't figure it out until I was in my 30s and at that point I already had a solid career and I wasn't willing to start over, so that helps me justify a lot of the risk. All things in life have risk. Flying the plane, no matter who is in it, carries risk. For me, those risks don't outweigh the benefits of me taking a kiddo up for a flight.

Sounds a lot like my story.

 

[jrs14855]

Sounds a lot like my story.

Fatal accident on YE flight years ago in western NY State.

 

[sansoneservices]

My EAA chapter does YE every year like most. Once in a great while we get a kid who doesn't listen, or gets sick .. pilots can turn around, land the plane fairly quickly. We only do YE with good weather. The members with 4 seaters are much appreciated (yes, Cherokees & Cessnas)

 

[RNB]

Seattle fatality I think in 2005, go around clipped trees.
Texas cirrus go around also.
Ny was collision of 172 and searey that were both YE flights.

 

[N10KE]

Seattle fatality I think in 2005, go around clipped trees.
Texas cirrus go around also.
Ny was collision of 172 and searey that were both YE flights.

Any lives lost or injuries is tragic.

With 2.4 million kids flown since inception of the program, I’d say that’s a pretty good record overall.

 

[MacCool]

Any fatal airplane mishap is going to certainly generate a lawsuit. If liability is that big a concern for a given pilot, the most prudent solution is for that pilot to never fly with a passenger.

 

[N427EF]

I used to fly Young Eagles and at least 3 of those youngsters that I know of became pilots.
I no longer fly strangers, especially kids. As a business owner I am painfully aware that a mere simple accusation is all it takes to make
the accused guilty and force him/her to spend a gazillion dollars to defend. No thanks!
The fact that we actually have to worry about how we go about buckling up a passenger is enough for me to keep out of that high risk activity.
Its all fun and games until "them" decides you misgendered, uh, eh "them".

 

[lr172]

I used to fly Young Eagles and at least 3 of those youngsters that I know of became pilots.
I no longer fly strangers, especially kids. As a business owner I am painfully aware that a mere simple accusation is all it takes to make
the accused guilty and force him/her to spend a gazillion dollars to defend. No thanks!
The fact that we actually have to worry about how we go about buckling up a passenger is enough for me to keep out of that high risk activity.
Its all fun and games until "them" decides you misgendered, uh, eh "them".

Reminds me of coaching my kids baseball and football teams.things were just changing then and cases were pretty limited. I can remember helping kids put on their gear - straps on shoulder pads. Catchers shield etc. or even worse , adjusting a kids shoulders when helping with batters stance. I can’t even imagine how scary that must be for folks in today’s climte. One unfounded accusation and your in a world of trouble.

 

[cgeyman]

again, life is short. try to have fun.

 

[BobTurner]

Quite a few years ago, after noticing that lawyers were now suing the cfi if a solo student had an accident, I still instructed but stopped signing off primary students for solo, meaning for most cases I didn’t instruct primary students at all. I was approached by a potential primary student and explained this to him. His response was, “But I’m from Argentina. We don’t behave so badly down there!” I did take him on.

 

[180av8r]

Anyone doing YE flights in an -8, -4 or other tandem?

I have flown many YE's, first in my Cherokee & later a Dakota, but not in the years since I purchased my -8. I miss it and have thought often about getting back into it, but have some concerns about not being able to look over and read their faces. Similarly, I think a child who can see my face when they're nervous (most are, at least a little bit), can get some reassurance from my calm expression and/or a smile.

The liability factor always lingers a bit in the back of my mind, but personally I've found the experience to be very rewarding and I never had a kid do anything in flight that surprised me. A thorough briefing along with involving them and their parents in the pre-flight and buckling in works well and as others have said, the kids showing up for these events are usually already interested in aviation to some extent.

 

[Steve Crewdog]

There's a really 2012 good Dutch movie called The Hunt starring Mads Mikkelsen about what happens to a man falsely accused of something bad, it's based on a true incident. When I was working I used to do "Wiggles Fingers" when I was posing with children (every so often a parent would take note and say something about it), with adults I'd give two thumbs up or something geeky, anything to have both hands in view in any photos taken. Even as recently as 2010 four airlines: BA, Air New Zealand, Quants, and Virgin Australia, banned men from sitting next to Unaccompanied Minors, and it took a lawsuit to get those policies stopped.

So... sorry. Thanks to those who do, but I'll never take a stranger flying, much less a child. However, my hangar is close to the perimeter fence, I always wave to people walking by and, if they express an interest and I can take a break, I'll invite them in to take a look, explain home building airplanes and tell them OspRey will fly on Wednesday when they ask when she'll fly.

 

[Ed_Wischmeyer]

Back when YE was new and the local governments considered us all to be rich pilots and racists because of the neighborhoods we flew over (really), YE transformed our image to "those people who give free airplane rides." Cries to close down the airports diminished...

 

[CD.]

Just yesterday, I received a high school graduation invitation in the mail from a young lady. She attached a note... thanking me for the airplane ride I gave her several years ago. Since then she has been extremely interested in flying. And as a result, she is going to college to major in aviation management with hopes to eventually fly for Delta.

 

[DanH]

Similarly: the additional risk presented by a day of YE flying may well be dwarfed by the risk associated with other aspects of your personal flying situation.

..or even driving to the grocery store. I'm about to head down to Walmart right now. I'll pass within two feet of other vehicles full of children, grandmas, and breadwinners. A lot of them will be going in the opposite direction with a combined closing speed of 100 knots. What if I blow a tire and veer over? Maybe lose my concentration for a moment? Get blinded by the sun because I let the windshield get dirty, and run over one of those fat ladies scooting around the parking lot on her little red cart?

Maybe I better go back to bed.

 

[Jimpick]

..or even driving to the grocery store. I'm about to head down to Walmart right now. I'll pass within two feet of other vehicles full of children, grandmas, and breadwinners. A lot of them will be going in the opposite direction with a combined closing speed of 100 knots. What if I blow a tire and veer over? Maybe lose my concentration for a moment? Get blinded by the sun because I let the windshield get dirty, and run over one of those fat ladies scooting around the parking lot on her little red cart?

Maybe I better go back to bed.

Well don't ride a bike to Walmart. You could be chased by a dog or hit by a guy in a giant truck. I am not going to get into the meteorites.

 

[lr172]

..or even driving to the grocery store. I'm about to head down to Walmart right now. I'll pass within two feet of other vehicles full of children, grandmas, and breadwinners. A lot of them will be going in the opposite direction with a combined closing speed of 100 knots. What if I blow a tire and veer over? Maybe lose my concentration for a moment? Get blinded by the sun because I let the windshield get dirty, and run over one of those fat ladies scooting around the parking lot on her little red cart?

Maybe I better go back to bed.

Fair points. But many with liability concerns carry large unbrella policies to cover what you discussed. Traditional auto coverage will leave you woefully undercovered in the cases you describe. Unfortunately, those umbrella policies pretty much universally exclude aviation related liability. We are forced to take the risk alone.

Don't get me started with the cart jockeys...

 

[rocketman1988]

Fair points. But many with liability concerns carry large unbrella policies to cover what you discussed. Unfortunately, those policies pretty much unioversally exclude aviation related liability.

Don't get me started with the cart jockeys...

Yep.

Aviation is more fun if you can share it…

 

[Dugaru]

Fair points. But many with liability concerns carry large unbrella policies to cover what you discussed. Traditional auto coverage will leave you woefully undercovered in the cases you describe. Unfortunately, those umbrella policies pretty much universally exclude aviation related liability. We are forced to take the risk alone.

Don't get me started with the cart jockeys...

Yup, for most of us it's relatively easy to be well-insured except with respect to aviation.

From a liability standpoint, probably the most valuable part of a typical $1M aviation policy with $100,000 sublimits is that the insurer has a duty to defend. The actual coverage is just not a ton of cash to throw at a problem like an aviation wrongful death.

Also, we need to be clear-eyed about the nature and extent of the relative risks involved. Everything has risks, but some risks really are bigger than others. For example, no matter how you calculate it, the riskiest part of your GA flight is your GA flight, it's not the drive to the airport: https://www.aviationseminars.com/downloads/big_lie_john_king.pdf

 

[BobTurner]

..or even driving to the grocery store. I'm about to head down to Walmart right now. I'll pass within two feet of other vehicles full of children, grandmas, and breadwinners. A lot of them will be going in the opposite direction with a combined closing speed of 100 knots. What if I blow a tire and veer over? Maybe lose my concentration for a moment? Get blinded by the sun because I let the windshield get dirty, and run over one of those fat ladies scooting around the parking lot on her little red cart?

Maybe I better go back to bed.

There is also the very real problem of juries deciding monetary values.
Kill someone with your car, he was worth $100K.
Kill the same person with your airplane, he was worth $1 million.
And, God forbid, you kill him in a nuclear reactor accident, he was worth $1 billion.

 

[climberrn]

My friend used to give Young Eagles rides in his -6A until one incident that scared the @rap out of him. On rotation, the kid grabbed the stick and pulled back as hard as he could. Had to have the stick forced out of his hand. He quit giving unknown kids rides after that. Heard recently that same kid showed up to another young eagles event. The organizers warned the pilot what happened on his previous flight. The pilot agreed to take him and his mom up in the second seat of a Cherokee 6. The mother threw a fit and sent complaint letters and phone calls to the EAA administration because her kid had to sit in the back seat.

I love the idea of it, but the potential for just one bad out of thousands of good rides stops me from doing it.