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MOSAIC LSRI course completed
- Thread starter FinnFlyer
- Start date
My FSDO got back with me and said that the the maintenance record requirement applies only to initial AWC issuance, not AWC amendments. I suspect the logic is that the amendment section of the order (2-4) allows limited review of maintenance records and limited or no actual inspection for providing an amendment also means they don't need to make a maintenance record when they elect to go light on the review and inspection parts of the process. I plan to leave it alone at this point.
Greensboro FSDO is saying the same thing but if you read the reg for amended it excepts a couple of items but says otherwise to follow paragraph 2-3 which talks about having to log it in the logbook. If the FAA wants to say this isn’t needed, great but as it reads I don’t see how they are interpreting it that way.
Ask him to show you that exception in the order. I don't think he will find it!
And remember, just because a FSDO inspector has his own interpretation, doesn't make it "Gospel".
To be clear on what regulation I am referencing for anyone interested or the lawyers:
Order 8130.2L
Paragraph 2-4 a (2)
Procedures for Amending an Airworthiness Certificate. Follow the procedures in paragraph 2-3 of this order except as follows:
(a) Review Aircraft Records. A complete review of aircraft records per paragraph 2-3.e of this order is not required. Review aircraft records as necessary in consideration of the reason for the amendment.
(b) Inspect Aircraft. A complete aircraft inspection per paragraph 2-3.f of this order is not required. Inspect the aircraft as necessary in consideration of the reason for the amendment.
Paragraph 2-3 h says
h. Issue Airworthiness Certificate. If you find the aircraft airworthy and all other requirements are met for the requested certificate:
(1) Complete sections V and VIII of FAA Form 8130-6 per the block-by-block instructions in section 2 of Appendix A to this order.
(2) Complete the standard or special airworthiness certificate, as applicable, per the block-by-block instructions in sections 3 or 4, respectively, of Appendix A to this order. Review the certificate to verify that it was completed without error.
(3) Make a maintenance record entry. The following is a satisfactory statement for the maintenance record entry: “I find that this aircraft meets the requirements for the certificate requested and have issued a [standard airworthiness certificate or special airworthiness certificate for the purpose(s) of (enter purpose) and operating limitations] dated _______.
[Signature: John Smith, Aviation Safety Inspector, AIR-883].”
Order 8130.2L
Paragraph 2-4 a (2)
Procedures for Amending an Airworthiness Certificate. Follow the procedures in paragraph 2-3 of this order except as follows:
(a) Review Aircraft Records. A complete review of aircraft records per paragraph 2-3.e of this order is not required. Review aircraft records as necessary in consideration of the reason for the amendment.
(b) Inspect Aircraft. A complete aircraft inspection per paragraph 2-3.f of this order is not required. Inspect the aircraft as necessary in consideration of the reason for the amendment.
Paragraph 2-3 h says
h. Issue Airworthiness Certificate. If you find the aircraft airworthy and all other requirements are met for the requested certificate:
(1) Complete sections V and VIII of FAA Form 8130-6 per the block-by-block instructions in section 2 of Appendix A to this order.
(2) Complete the standard or special airworthiness certificate, as applicable, per the block-by-block instructions in sections 3 or 4, respectively, of Appendix A to this order. Review the certificate to verify that it was completed without error.
(3) Make a maintenance record entry. The following is a satisfactory statement for the maintenance record entry: “I find that this aircraft meets the requirements for the certificate requested and have issued a [standard airworthiness certificate or special airworthiness certificate for the purpose(s) of (enter purpose) and operating limitations] dated _______.
[Signature: John Smith, Aviation Safety Inspector, AIR-883].”
OK. We have an organization called the Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA). They are supposed to have aviation experts that understand the FAA, and all types of interactions with the FAA.
Simple, common sense question: Why doesn't EAA develop a step-by-step, easy to understand, comprehensive explanation of how to accomplish what we are all attempting to accomplish - update our operation limits to 8130.2L ?
Starting with the exact FAA web site URL. How to get an account on the web site. How to navigate the web site. Exactly what each screen looks like as one navigates the web site. Exactly what information needs to be input at each step of the process. Etc. Etc.
Shouldn't this be something that someone (or a team) at EAA can put together, as part of their job portfolio, and eventual measure of impact to the aviation community, as said individual / team seeks promotion and recognition within the organization? After all, this is way beyond Vans aircraft.
If this is so simple, why are there 158 posts of obvious frustration? How about it EAA? You can do it...
Simple, common sense question: Why doesn't EAA develop a step-by-step, easy to understand, comprehensive explanation of how to accomplish what we are all attempting to accomplish - update our operation limits to 8130.2L ?
Starting with the exact FAA web site URL. How to get an account on the web site. How to navigate the web site. Exactly what each screen looks like as one navigates the web site. Exactly what information needs to be input at each step of the process. Etc. Etc.
Shouldn't this be something that someone (or a team) at EAA can put together, as part of their job portfolio, and eventual measure of impact to the aviation community, as said individual / team seeks promotion and recognition within the organization? After all, this is way beyond Vans aircraft.
If this is so simple, why are there 158 posts of obvious frustration? How about it EAA? You can do it...
Aviator
Well Known Member
Yes Tom, you need to first email the FSDo and you will be assigned an inspector. Then you can talk to him/ her and things will happen from there. I had to.
I will probably make my own logbook entry stating that amended AWC was issued and the reason why which I will sign along with my A&P. I will also keep my emails from the FSDO in my records. To me that is good enough, I am not really interested in making this harder for the FSDO. If they are pushed on this they may then decide it is a much bigger deal to amend, requiring full maintenance record review and aircraft inspection. That will push wait times the wrong direction if you want to use FAA inspectors for the work. Just my thoughts...
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Most of the confusion comes from individuals making their own interpretation and insisting that they are right instead of listening to the people
who work with the FAA day in and day out.
It's really not as complicated and many make it out to be.
Fixed it for you.
Until the FAA itself decides how this should work, EAA can’t be expected to provide reliable guidance.
As has been mentioned many time in this thread, the FSDO inspectors have a LOT on their plate and Experimentals are a VERY small part of their job.
That's why they developed the DAR program. DARs don't have to deal with every program and can focus on their particular categories.
Believe it or not, FSDO inspectors call on DARs very often for "how to".
I’ve got word that Atlanta FSDO may be issuing someone a log book entry. I’ll know soon and keep working this.
You’re absolutely correct - so have you written EAA and asked to do this? Posting this here on VAF (you wrote a very accurate, nice, detailed post…) will do absolutely nothing because they don’t read it. Send a note (your post will do….) to Charlie Becker at EAA HQ!
After seeing this lengthy thread, I assumed the process of getting the operating limitations updated would be a nightmare. However, I was pleasantly surprised to receive my amended operating limitations via email only 24 hours after submitting my application to the Birmingham FSDO.
Most of the application was straightforward but the parts I was unsure about and the choices I made that seemingly turned out to be correct were:
- Latest AD Biweekly Supplement No - I just listed the latest year/issue doc (“2026-03”) from here https://drs.faa.gov/reports/ad-biweekly
- Documents - I attached the following
3-view drawing
Current airworthiness certificate
Current operating limitations
Registration
Program letter (just a pdf of a short message saying I’d like the new operating limitations with 8130.2L Appendix D No 18)
- Designee/ODA - selected none
Now if only I could get my LSRI certificate processed… It’s been a month of slow back and forth for that so far.
Most of the application was straightforward but the parts I was unsure about and the choices I made that seemingly turned out to be correct were:
- Latest AD Biweekly Supplement No - I just listed the latest year/issue doc (“2026-03”) from here https://drs.faa.gov/reports/ad-biweekly
- Documents - I attached the following
3-view drawing
Current airworthiness certificate
Current operating limitations
Registration
Program letter (just a pdf of a short message saying I’d like the new operating limitations with 8130.2L Appendix D No 18)
- Designee/ODA - selected none
Now if only I could get my LSRI certificate processed… It’s been a month of slow back and forth for that so far.
Did they issue you a logbook entry in your airframe logbook?
Ironflight said: You’re absolutely correct - so have you written EAA and asked to do this? Posting this here on VAF (you wrote a very accurate, nice, detailed post…) will do absolutely nothing because they don’t read it. Send a note (your post will do….) to Charlie Becker at EAA HQ!
Thank you for this suggestion. I was kind of hoping that someone at EAA monitors the "premier website for experimental aviation", and would consider the opportunity. But, this is a good suggestion. So, I went the EAA website, to find Charlie B. email address, to send him the idea. I searched fairly exhaustively, and could not find his, or any other email address for specific individuals in EAA. I'm sure the website is multidimensional, and it may be there somewhere, but I couldn't find it.
Watching this unfold, from the MOSAIC announcement by Secretary of Transportation Sean Duffy at AirVenture, until today, reminds of the classic song "A Hole in the Bucket".
Thank you for this suggestion. I was kind of hoping that someone at EAA monitors the "premier website for experimental aviation", and would consider the opportunity. But, this is a good suggestion. So, I went the EAA website, to find Charlie B. email address, to send him the idea. I searched fairly exhaustively, and could not find his, or any other email address for specific individuals in EAA. I'm sure the website is multidimensional, and it may be there somewhere, but I couldn't find it.
Watching this unfold, from the MOSAIC announcement by Secretary of Transportation Sean Duffy at AirVenture, until today, reminds of the classic song "A Hole in the Bucket".
No logbook entry was provided, just the updated Airworthiness Certificate and Operating Limitations
I messaged EAA with my log book question. As well as AOPA.
EAA contact is on vacation.
AOPA said I’m lucky to get a AWC from a FSDO and that I shouldn’t worry about it.
The past couple times I have dealt with the Indy FSDO for airworthiness or other items like field approvals. I was told to email the FSDO and eventually I would get an email back stating to do everything through their online portal. All the old guys we used to deal with there have since left the Indy FSDO/ retired.
Hey ... I know you!
Yup - I tried the guy I used when I changed my N number 8 years ago and he'd retired.
In followup, I did get a response from the examiner at 0645 this AM, emailed him the stuff he wanted and he got back to me in 15 minutes or so. So, the ball is rolling.
For any of you that have received the cert, what does it say on the back?
Something like:
Repairman Experimental Aircraft Owner
Inspection certificate for experimental aircraft owned by ....?
Edit: Got an email back asking what type of certificate I'm looking to get and want to help the inspector if I can.
Something like:
Repairman Experimental Aircraft Owner
Inspection certificate for experimental aircraft owned by ....?
Edit: Got an email back asking what type of certificate I'm looking to get and want to help the inspector if I can.
did they notify you? I found it through an online search today, but when I was in the class she said she'd let us know.
every friggin FSDO is their own little FAA. Mine in San Antonio was done exclusively via ZOOM with signed documents copied and emailed to the inspectper.
LinkedIn?
Yes in the class email group each class gets in the beginning
Then who ever issued them did not correctly follow the Order.
Anyone receiving an amended certificate should expect to also receive a record entry sticker to put in their maint. log.
Not according to the Greensboro FSDO. I am fighting this battle right now.
FORANE
Well Known Member
Who is allowed to sign said log entry? The aircraft owners?
I was given the log entry with instructions to make it in my logbook.
Haha
Yeah so the FAA order says the entity amending the AWC is the one that’s supposed to write an entry that states the AWC was amended.
My GSO person sent me a log book entry that was digitally signed.
There is no battle to fight.
The FAA order is clear on what steps the issuer is required to follow when issuing a certificate.
In post #150 of this thread Mel already posted what specific details are in the Order regarding this.
If it is in the order, it must be done to be in compliance. Nothing printed there is optional.
The person issuing the certificate makes the entry... The relevant step in the order is instructing the issuer what to do.
For this type of a situation it is likely to be done as a digital document signed by the issuer, that the applicant can then print and paste into their maint. record (logbook).
Well like I said my FSDO says it is not necessary and that what they did is within the rules.
I am fully aware of Mel’s view. I’m also able to read the order myself. I interpret the same way as Mel. My FSDO does not. I’m simply stating facts in my case.
It's not your fsdo, mine was the same and did it right.
I am not clear then on what your original reason for quoting my post was.
If you have read the order and understand what it says, and you agree with the interpretation Mel gave, which is the same as mine, then an additional fact is that your FSDO did not follow the order.
That was all I stated in my post.
Radioflyer
Well Known Member
I am also trying to start this process. So far no luck after leaving a request with my FSDO. As I understand it--
One can work directly with a FSDO, A DAR, or through the AWC (not CARES) website.
Furthermore,
Form 8610-3 is used to apply for the the official LSRI rating.
Form 8130-6 is used to request/apply for an Air worthiness Certificate with "amended" Operating Limitations.
and
Order 8130-2L instructs/authorizes the FSDO Airworthiness Inspector to "amend" my EAB operating limitations to allow an LSRI rated EAB owner to do their own condition inspection.
Order 8130-2L lists the various paragraphs (i.e., Limitations) that the inspector can choose to include in the amended document of operating limitations. Can just the one LSRI pertinent paragraph be changed in my current limitations or is it standard practice to get a new set of the newly worded applicable paragraphs? I kinda prefer all my other paragraphs to stay as they currently are.
One can work directly with a FSDO, A DAR, or through the AWC (not CARES) website.
Furthermore,
Form 8610-3 is used to apply for the the official LSRI rating.
Form 8130-6 is used to request/apply for an Air worthiness Certificate with "amended" Operating Limitations.
and
Order 8130-2L instructs/authorizes the FSDO Airworthiness Inspector to "amend" my EAB operating limitations to allow an LSRI rated EAB owner to do their own condition inspection.
Order 8130-2L lists the various paragraphs (i.e., Limitations) that the inspector can choose to include in the amended document of operating limitations. Can just the one LSRI pertinent paragraph be changed in my current limitations or is it standard practice to get a new set of the newly worded applicable paragraphs? I kinda prefer all my other paragraphs to stay as they currently are.
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CARES is for aircraft registration related activities.
AWC is for airworthiness related activities.
To get a certificate amended (have a change Issued) requires issuance of a new certificate.
AWC is for airworthiness related activities.
To get a certificate amended (have a change Issued) requires issuance of a new certificate.
Radioflyer
Well Known Member
I stand corrected...to amend the operating limitations can go through AWC, not CARES. Thanks rvbuilder2002.
So it looks like this process will get me 1- an entirely new updated set of limitations, 2- a new airworthiness certificate, and 3- a new FAA inspection entry in my maintenance logs. (An actual inspection not required.)
So it looks like this process will get me 1- an entirely new updated set of limitations, 2- a new airworthiness certificate, and 3- a new FAA inspection entry in my maintenance logs. (An actual inspection not required.)
Not quite. The list Instructs which op lims to use for each category of Airworthiness. We cannot "choose"!
I followed up with him and he quickly sent me over a logbook entry to print out. Hopefully now with the LSRI cert, updated AWC/OpLims, and logbook entry, I can now consider all my t’s crossed and i’s dotted.
At least until the next change! Ha-Ha.
Update:
Finally the Greensboro FSDO contact I have issued me a logbook entry. The background is some ASIs were doing it and others vehemently disagreed and were not issuing logbook entries. They just had a management meeting today and are all now issuing logbook entries. I finally got mine.
