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Easiest retrofit door latch

R

RNB

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First off, one of the benefits of posting here rather than a FB group is not needing to wait on moderator approval for posts despite multi year group membership!

Flying RV10. Pilot side door has Vans safety latch, nothing on Co-pilot side. I'd like to remedy this.

What latch system is likely easiest to install? Not best or greatest, EASIEST. Minimal down time, minimal cursing, minimal rework/paint damage/fiberglass repair. I'll put the best on the plane I am building.

My brief perusal of options makes it look like stock 45A is the way to go.

Thanks.
 
The benefit of VAF over FB is that most of the people here are builders and have a reasonable idea of what they are talking about. Otherwise they tend to stay quiet. The signal/noise on FB is minimal.
I generally shake my head when I read stuff there. Utter waste of time. A few contributors are worth listening to, but for every one of them there’s 10 that are dangerously clueless.
Anyway… yes the 45A is the easiest but will do nothing to stop you losing a door. Def a joke.
 
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100% planearound latch. The work to install is far less than the work you would need to do if you lost a door. There has already been a fatal accident due to a door loss so this is a serious concern.
Please think about you actions if you did have a door come open. Number 1 FLY THE PLANE. Even if the door comes off the plane will still fly ok. Don’t panic and take your time to safely return or land.

KR Peter
 
N427EF said:
Doors locked, check lights off.
Click to expand...

Problem is if there is a broken wire, popped breaker or other lack of power etc. the light is off----even if the door is not correctly latched. An off light only tells you the light is not lit, not if there is an issue.

I put in a "Push to Test" button for the doors, wired directly though the magnetic switches and no relay.

This is a check list item, requires action by pilot-------not some "hope it gets noticed" automatic warning.

Push button and lights will light is all is OK, otherwise look for an unlatched door or electrical issue.
 
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Mike S said:
Problem is if there is a broken wire, popped breaker or other lack of power etc. the light is off----even if the door is not correctly latched. An off light only tells you the light is not lit, not if there is an issue.
Click to expand...
If you use a open port on your EMS, wire the reed switches in series, set the port for "if ground, then good" this is not an issue. All four reed switches must be shut to provide the needed ground. A broken wire or switch and the door indication stays red (door open).

Carl
 
Carl Froehlich said:
A broken wire or switch and the door indication stays red (door open).

Carl
Click to expand...

Not sure if I follow your logic-------How does a light stay red (ON) is the power supply to the light itself is not working for some reason----broke wire, bad fuse, bad breaker, bad switch etc.
 
I do look at the 'door closed' light but never trust it. My checklist - done prior to takeoff, every time - says "LOOK AT AFT EDGE OF DOORS". This does require some squirming around in your seat, but once you know what you're looking for it's obvious if the latch pin is on the outside of the airplane - the door edge doesn't mate properly with the interior. I also either personally close both doors, or closely supervise anyone else who is closing them, again checking the aft edge. Finally, the mantra on the takeoff roll is "Door coming open. let it go." Both fatal accidents (there have been 2 to my knowledge) have involved pilots trying to save the door. There have been a fair number of "door lost" incidents, where the plane was flown to an uneventful landing.
 
Mike S said:
Not sure if I follow your logic-------How does a light stay red (ON) is the power supply to the light itself is not working for some reason----broke wire, bad fuse, bad breaker, bad switch etc.
Click to expand...
The door indication is not a simple light circuit. It is a logic circuit. Most EMS products support this.
Carl
 
Mike S said:
Ok, logic is fine.

Still, how does the light stay on if there is no power to it?
Click to expand...
If you don't have an EFIS with this logic, you could make a circuit with a relay. You use the "normal - closed" terminals on the relay to provide power to the light, and then when you have all the reed switches close because the doors are all latched, it grounds the control lead on the relay, which opens the switch inside the relay and the light goes out.
 
N427EF said:
The easiest solution is "installing" it on your checklist.
Doors locked, check lights off.
Don't let anyone lock the doors for you.
That is how I do it.
Click to expand...
That is a bit simple imo. Without latches of some sort, many pilots don’t check the rear door pin, just the front, and end up in trouble. A more thorough checklist item is required. This is a built in issue, as the damper/opener is pushing only the rear part of the door away. Very easy for pilot to think the door is latched, but only the front is.
 
Carl Froehlich said:
If you use a open port on your EMS, wire the reed switches in series, set the port for "if ground, then good" this is not an issue. All four reed switches must be shut to provide the needed ground. A broken wire or switch and the door indication stays red (door open).

Carl
Click to expand...
I did it this way also and for the same reasons. I also have a dedicated door open light wired as scott suggested above. No power supply involved; runs off ship power. As long as that is good, my lighrs work, unless the led dies.
 
scsmith said:
If you don't have an EFIS with this logic, you could make a circuit with a relay. You use the "normal - closed" terminals on the relay to provide power to the light, and then when you have all the reed switches close because the doors are all latched, it grounds the control lead on the relay, which opens the switch inside the relay and the light goes out.
Click to expand...
Yep, as I recall this is how Vans does it. Use constant power to turn off a light. Still does not explain how the light can be lit if somewhere in the power circuit there is a gremlin preventing the power from getting to the light.

Carl, got it. Did not realize you were using the EFIS instead of a light. If a wire in the door switch daisy chain got shorted to ground, then what would happen?
 
I have the planearound system on my RV 10 and before you write me off hear me out
The system has three advantages to the standard
1. It incorporates a center cam that snugs the bottom of the door in
2 it changes the throw of the latch handle to 180 degrees instead of 90 which extends the latch pins deeper into t door frames
3. It uses steel pins that both are stronger and provide a better contact with the switches

And yes I have the switches which tell me if a door is not secure
Also IALWAYS SUPERVISE THE CLOSING OF THE RIGHT DOOR FROM OUTSIDE THE PLANE

Yes it is expensive and somewhat difficult to install. But what is the cost and consequences of loosing a door in flight? Think of how terrifying it would be for your passengers. Would they ever fly with you again?
 
Mike S said:
Carl, got it. Did not realize you were using the EFIS instead of a light. If a wire in the door switch daisy chain got shorted to ground, then what would happen?
Click to expand...
To have a door open, the pilot did not note the failure in the indication when getting into the plane, and the pilot failed to do pre flight checks.
 
Another vote for the PlaneAround latch. Think of it as practice for when you install them on the 10 you are building.

If you decide to do just the Van's latch (again, not recommended) I probably have most of the components you need. I didn't (and wouldn't) use them.
 
N10KE said:
Another vote for the PlaneAround latch. Think of it as practice for when you install them on the 10 you are building.

If you decide to do just the Van's latch (again, not recommended) I probably have most of the components you need. I didn't (and wouldn't) use them.
Click to expand...

Well I'll go ahead and accept the collective group sideye and say yes, I'd like them.
 
Argh! Thanks to the user that sent these to me.

Now I look at the plans and see that they get installed before the two door shell layers are put together...in other words this is very much so not the easiest to retrofit.

I am now looking at the plane around, but are there other RETROFIT options?
 
RNB said:
Argh! Thanks to the user that sent these to me.

Now I look at the plans and see that they get installed before the two door shell layers are put together...in other words this is very much so not the easiest to retrofit.

I am now looking at the plane around, but are there other RETROFIT options?
Click to expand...
As far as I know you only have 2 options: Vans or PlaneAround.
 
Are u sure the Vans latch is before the shells are mated? For some reason I remember Vans providing them as a retrofit that are installed on the inside shell.
 
Looks like the latch kit was supplied by Vans to current owners of flying aircraft as a retrofit.

The Vans latch seems to catch the door frame similar to the Planearound, although a lever instead of a cam. Can someone educate me on why the Vans latch doesn't work?
 
RV7 To Go said:
Looks like the latch kit was supplied by Vans to current owners of flying aircraft as a retrofit.

The Vans latch seems to catch the door frame similar to the Planearound, although a lever instead of a cam. Can someone educate me on why the Vans latch doesn't work?
Click to expand...
Because you have to operate the lever latch as a separate action to rotating the door handle. It makes the door closing process a 2 stage operation - which is not foolproof. Doors have still been lost with the vans 3rd latch.
 
Richard Connell said:
Because you have to operate the lever latch as a separate action to rotating the door handle. It makes the door closing process a 2 stage operation - which is not foolproof. Doors have still been lost with the vans 3rd latch.
Click to expand...
So it doesn't just flip up and catch the frame when you close the door? Is it spring loaded or a manual action?
 
Richard Connell said:
Because you have to operate the lever latch as a separate action to rotating the door handle. It makes the door closing process a 2 stage operation - which is not foolproof. Doors have still been lost with the vans 3rd latch.
Click to expand...
But you have to close the door, and rotate the door handle, before you latch it....those are separate action too.

The size and ugliness of the latches would be hard to miss. If the latch is closed, it's likely going to work. If the rear pin is on the outside of the door and the Vans safety latch is closed, it's likely going to work to keep the door closed. A center latch is likely also to help minimize door flex where a door with short pins (poor fella) can potentially disengage.

Have to use it to work, same as ensuring the door handles are fully closed.

If the Vans latch is already on the pilot door, you should be able to see how it installs on the outside of the shell. It's by far the easiest, and ugliest, but it should work ok.

I have planearound with the unused Vans kit sitting on the shelf.
 
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raabs said:
But you have to close the door, and rotate the door handle, before you latch it....those are separate action too.
Click to expand...
Only with the vans latch.
The plane around is a guaranteed one step process.
The question I was answering was whats the difference between the plane around and the vans lever 3rd latch.
 
raabs said:
Are u sure the Vans latch is before the shells are mated? For some reason I remember Vans providing them as a retrofit that are installed on the inside shell.
Click to expand...
In the photo at the lower left, there are parts shown inside the door cavity, that is what threw me off. As I read the directions, perhaps those parts get carefully placed inside an existing door.
 

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Richard Connell said:
Only with the vans latch.
The plane around is a guaranteed one step process.
The question I was answering was whats the difference between the plane around and the vans lever 3rd latch.
Click to expand...
Hopefully. The planearound is nice but you still have to visibly (at least) check that a door closed correctly. My point is that the Vans latch does work. On either latch, you have to close the door correctly, rotate the door handle all the way. And for Vans latch, engage the latch. Then visually and maybe physically check the door.

Van’s is much easier to install after the fact. Both work though. Good luck.
 
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