Van's customer service

[RV7A Flyer]

Now, the follow-on question...

How exactly does a piece THAT badly manufactured make it through their supposedly much-improved QA process?

 

[chris1seto]

My take is that I would not let vans organizational issues stop me from buying another kit.... BUT vans has some serious issues they need to work through, and often they don't put a good taste in my mouth. A few examples on my rv10:

* Possibly hot take: I don't believe the rv10 assembly manual is actually viable. I don't believe that you can build an rv10 to the word of the instructions. Large parts of sections don't work (the pitch trim rigging section, the torque tube installation of the flaps, etc) and hardware call outs are periodically incorrect (usually minor stuff, like no an316-4 in inventory, only an316-4r).

* Another issue with the manual: There are numerous steps which are unnecessarily punitive. Example: the manual waits until the tailcone is finished and closed out in the aft deck area to have you install adel clamps for the rudder cable guide tubes. Access is extremely difficult at this point. Why not move this step to the point in construction when this area is open?

* The actual aircraft itself has the same fit issues as the manual. Example: There's a notorious rivet through the rear spar bulkhead which has a hole tangent to a rib making it impossible to set correctly.

* Numerous issues with my QB fuse:
- The longeron bending near the baggage door has been wrong for numerous QB fuses, including mine, resulting in a huge baggage door gap. Vans tech recommendation was to cold form the longeron insitu to fix this. Yeah, no. Bad advice on an issue that is, frankly, unacceptable. The point of quick build is to build quickly. Not spending hours DIY reworking an issue vans has known about for years (we fabricated a shim to insert between the longeron and skin).

- One longeron cut to the wrong length preventing tailcone mating

- Numerous incorrect nut plates found installed, and several mutilated dog ear nutplates

- FOD (a candy wrapper, among other things) found inside the structure in an area closed out with temporary rivets

- Many steps labeled standard kit only but not accomplished on my fuse.

* The bag system is horrifically bad. I have bags with many 3-3 and 3-3.5 rivets mixed together. Who thought this was a reasonable idea? I don't know who is asking for this mixing and kitting of parts, but I'd much rather just get bags of hardware separated and labeled, or better yet, a stack of plastic organizers. The bag system is a colossal waste of builder time, and it's an additional production step for Vans to mix hardware. Instead of giving us an exact weight of rivets, just give us a couple bulk bags.

* In the trim section, the manual calls for W-730. This was nowhere in my inventory. I called tech support to ask about it and was told I was building the kit wrong because I was assembling the fuse before having the wing kit (where W-730 comes from). No dimensions were given for this part. I bought all 3 kits the same day, almost a year ago. My wings are still MIA. What am I supposed to do here, wait until they come to start the rest of the plane? When I asked why they couldn't just put the dimensions in the book so I could fabricate it, I was told this wasn't possible because of the way the plans were written. What?!

* On the topic of W-730, numerous other dimensions are missing from things in the book in fabrication steps. While only a mild annoyance, it makes it much harder to sanity check the manual that I only barely trust, and also harder to design tooling to help with the fabrication steps.

* The paper manual I received is different than the digital copy I received at the same time. Worse, at least one SB isn't integrated into either. I wasn't even supplied with material for the elevator up stop SB, nor were its steps in either manual. Tech support didn't understand why this was the case

I would give Vans a C+ on materials handling, so far. They did ship my emp, fuse QB, and finish kit about on time, but .....

* My seat kit arrived later and the box was absolutely obliterated with parts leaking out and the seat frames rubbing. It was totally under packaged.

* Instead of shipping me an rv10 rudder skin, they shipped me an rv14 hstab skin. Getting this exchanged was a giant pain.

Personally, I think Vans needs to follow their own kit purchase and build workflow from payment to first flight, with a rule that they cannot allow their in house builders to creatively work around the book where it's wrong. I think they need to note everything that squanders builder time or results in substandard assembly and rework it.

I do think highly of the airplane and I think Vans is like 90% there on having a killer product. I do understand that a home built airplane isn't a casual project, but I think we can all agree that separating dozens of 3-3 from 3-3.5 rivets isn't a task which productively contributes to the build experience. Further, the QBs kits need to lead by example in workmanship and accuracy to the design and book.

The kit having so many small-medium sized issues and the book often being incorrect undermines Van's ability to speak authoritatively on technical issues.

Just my hot take!

 

[Scott Chastain]

No word yet on the backordered doubler, however, but I'm glad I won't have to wait an eternity to begin putting my baffle system together! Thank you, Van's!

The new baffle piece arrived today in perfect shape, so all's well that ends well! Also, the doubler is due to arrive Monday after I made a phone call to clarify a timeline. It appears that phone calls are still the way to get things moving if anyone else is having issues with parts, but I am very pleased to still be working with a company that truly goes out of its way to make things right when they aren't. Thank you again, Van's!

 

[Jonnyb]

My take is that I would not let vans organizational issues stop me from buying another kit.... BUT vans has some serious issues they need to work through, and often they don't put a good taste in my mouth. A few examples on my rv10:

* Possibly hot take: I don't believe the rv10 assembly manual is actually viable. I don't believe that you can build an rv10 to the word of the instructions. Large parts of sections don't work (the pitch trim rigging section, the torque tube installation of the flaps, etc) and hardware call outs are periodically incorrect (usually minor stuff, like no an316-4 in inventory, only an316-4r).

* Another issue with the manual: There are numerous steps which are unnecessarily punitive. Example: the manual waits until the tailcone is finished and closed out in the aft deck area to have you install adel clamps for the rudder cable guide tubes. Access is extremely difficult at this point. Why not move this step to the point in construction when this area is open?

* The actual aircraft itself has the same fit issues as the manual. Example: There's a notorious rivet through the rear spar bulkhead which has a hole tangent to a rib making it impossible to set correctly.

* Numerous issues with my QB fuse:
- The longeron bending near the baggage door has been wrong for numerous QB fuses, including mine, resulting in a huge baggage door gap. Vans tech recommendation was to cold form the longeron insitu to fix this. Yeah, no. Bad advice on an issue that is, frankly, unacceptable. The point of quick build is to build quickly. Not spending hours DIY reworking an issue vans has known about for years (we fabricated a shim to insert between the longeron and skin).

- One longeron cut to the wrong length preventing tailcone mating

- Numerous incorrect nut plates found installed, and several mutilated dog ear nutplates

- FOD (a candy wrapper, among other things) found inside the structure in an area closed out with temporary rivets

- Many steps labeled standard kit only but not accomplished on my fuse.

* The bag system is horrifically bad. I have bags with many 3-3 and 3-3.5 rivets mixed together. Who thought this was a reasonable idea? I don't know who is asking for this mixing and kitting of parts, but I'd much rather just get bags of hardware separated and labeled, or better yet, a stack of plastic organizers. The bag system is a colossal waste of builder time, and it's an additional production step for Vans to mix hardware. Instead of giving us an exact weight of rivets, just give us a couple bulk bags.

* In the trim section, the manual calls for W-730. This was nowhere in my inventory. I called tech support to ask about it and was told I was building the kit wrong because I was assembling the fuse before having the wing kit (where W-730 comes from). No dimensions were given for this part. I bought all 3 kits the same day, almost a year ago. My wings are still MIA. What am I supposed to do here, wait until they come to start the rest of the plane? When I asked why they couldn't just put the dimensions in the book so I could fabricate it, I was told this wasn't possible because of the way the plans were written. What?!

* On the topic of W-730, numerous other dimensions are missing from things in the book in fabrication steps. While only a mild annoyance, it makes it much harder to sanity check the manual that I only barely trust, and also harder to design tooling to help with the fabrication steps.

* The paper manual I received is different than the digital copy I received at the same time. Worse, at least one SB isn't integrated into either. I wasn't even supplied with material for the elevator up stop SB, nor were its steps in either manual. Tech support didn't understand why this was the case

I would give Vans a C+ on materials handling, so far. They did ship my emp, fuse QB, and finish kit about on time, but .....

* My seat kit arrived later and the box was absolutely obliterated with parts leaking out and the seat frames rubbing. It was totally under packaged.

* Instead of shipping me an rv10 rudder skin, they shipped me an rv14 hstab skin. Getting this exchanged was a giant pain.

Personally, I think Vans needs to follow their own kit purchase and build workflow from payment to first flight, with a rule that they cannot allow their in house builders to creatively work around the book where it's wrong. I think they need to note everything that squanders builder time or results in substandard assembly and rework it.

I do think highly of the airplane and I think Vans is like 90% there on having a killer product. I do understand that a home built airplane isn't a casual project, but I think we can all agree that separating dozens of 3-3 from 3-3.5 rivets isn't a task which productively contributes to the build experience. Further, the QBs kits need to lead by example in workmanship and accuracy to the design and book.

The kit having so many small-medium sized issues and the book often being incorrect undermines Van's ability to speak authoritatively on technical issues.

Just my hot take!

I think this is an example of how customer expectations have moved on and how Vans is racing to catchup.

Those of us building “legacy” kits are just pleased the manual and plans vaguely match. There are some totally glaring holes, but we just get on with it. I follow Dave’s -3B build and that’s proper building. I consider myself fortunate to have the plans and assistance I have.

The bag system is annoying, but part of the building experience. And if you can’t easily see the difference between a 3 and 3.5 rivet you obviously need the practice, so consider it part of the education.

Again, I’m just happy I don’t have to order all the hardware from Aircraft Spruce.

You’re building an RV-10. That’s a Cirrus killer at a 1/4 of the price. Will everything be perfect? No. Will issues and problem arise? Yes. But Vans is there to help at the end of the phone (email) and that is much more than most other kit builders get.

Building is an experience, enjoy the ride!

 

[nohoflyer]

I’m going to respectfully disagree with this perspective. The “shut up and color cause that’s the way we’ve always done it” is outdated and just poor. My 7A build also has many areas that could use improvement. Having to rely so heavily on builders logs and this site is a crutch for lazy/lack of updates to vans instructions. There is no reason to not be updating build order/instructions as errors are brought to light. And don’t get me started with the firewall forward kit and the “good luck we’ve all done it” attitude.

 

[rocketman1988]

I’m going to respectfully disagree with this perspective. The “shut up and color cause that’s the way we’ve always done it” is outdated and just poor. My 7A build also has many areas that could use improvement. Having to rely so heavily on builders logs and this site is a crutch for lazy/lack of updates to vans instructions. There is no reason to not be updating build order/instructions as errors are brought to light. And don’t get me started with the firewall forward kit and the “good luck we’ve all done it” attitude.

Remember, you are BUILDING an airplane; not assembling.

Do you think it is possible to write instructions for every contingency AND that make sense to everyone while contending with the fact that no two RV are exactly alike?

Seems like an unreasonable request. I will agree that there are parts of the instructions that could be better but building an airplane is a bit different than assembling a Lego set.

 

[nohoflyer]

Remember, you are BUILDING an airplane; not assembling.

Do you think it is possible to write instructions for every contingency AND that make sense to everyone while contending with the fact that no two RV are exactly alike?

Seems like an unreasonable request. I will agree that there are parts of the instructions that could be better but building an airplane is a bit different than assembling a Lego set.

Again I disagree. Besides purposefully going off plan to customize your build, why aren’t two RVs almost identical? I get that build quality will be different for different levels of experience but that is different. Vans has put out plans years ago for these models and have not done what most aviation related entities that I’ve dealt with in the last 30 years, update (besides safety related). I keep hearing about the ease of the RV14 and how great the plans are. Why wouldn’t vans evolve plans for their more popular models? Why aren’t known bugs put into updates?

Listen I get that some people like the hand drawn plans for the legacy RVs and enjoy the challenge. But for a casual builder who is not an engineer nor AnP, I would at least like a set of instructions vs a bunch of random blueprints and “Good luck” (actual response) from builder support.

Again just my opinion but one that has formed from being in a career in aviation for 30+ years. Standardization and continuous improvement are good things. And yes I realize this is the experimental world but actual lives are at stake.

 

[cgeyman]

Agree that bumps are frustrating but you get used to them. Vans provides excellent support and kits given the size of their ops and how many different models they make.
If you want efficiency, then drop the rv-15 venture, and rv-4 & rv-6 support. They keep pushing forward, and so should us builders.
Updating the plans for minor items is still a big deal, requiring engineering approval, which takes them away from their current developments. VAF usually has the answer if a builder gets confused at times. Not sure where all the negativity comes from. I have built two rv-9s in the last 5 years. It is not a casual building experience, rather an almost full time job. I got two left exhaust pipes and waited 8 months for back-ordered items, but you just work on something else for a bit. Cheers. At least it isn’t this bad (photo)

 

[chris1seto]

The kit should be about building the safest, most consistent, highest performing airplane possible with as little frustration and wasted time by an amateur. I'm not understanding how having people spend time separating rivets helps that goal either.

The opportunity cost to vans improving the book and making it viable should be extremely minimal. All they need to do is listen to feedback and update the plans. I would hope the org is agile enough that they can update something which is blatantly wrong as a priority.

While you are building a "one off", it is still from a kit and any basic kit section should be possible to be followed exactly. Vans does not need to accommodate every single variation in builds. Variation only really happens towards the end, once the basic airframe is complete. The basic airframe sections should be possible to be completed with only the word of the instructions.

> Updating the plans for minor items is still a big deal, requiring engineering approval,

The alternative here is people leaving the plans to do things outside engineering approval. Also, several of the things I mentioned in my post are not at all minor. Pitch trim rigging, flap mechanism, etc. Just the other I also came across issues in the primary flight control rigging sections


As far as customer expectations increasing, my customer expectation is that I can rely on Vans as an engineering authority as the company who designed, tested and produced the kit. Vans is lucky that their customer base has the most incredible community of enthusiasts I've ever seen, but it doesn't change the fact that they still need to be accountable to produce accurate support.

 

[Jonnyb]

While I would agree with a lot of what you have written there are a few exceptions.

I think that for quite a few of us building IS the journey. I personally quite enjoy pondering the plans, seeing how it works in practice. Yes there are annoying aspects of it, but that is also part of the journey for me.

Could Vans constantly update their plans and instructions? I wish they would, but not if it’s going to add to the already significant cost of the kits. I would rather figure it out myself using resources such as VAF.

Could the bagging system be improved? For builders of course it could, but it’s not designed this way for builders. Is designed this way for Vans. Each kit is divided into sub kits and inventoried separately. It’s why I get 3 bags of various amounts of -3 rivets and not one big bag. (I don’t know this for certain, it’s the impression I get from my kits and the inventory list)

While Vans is the kit manufacturer, we builders are the aircraft manufacturers. It’s our responsibility to ensure its airworthiness. While Vans provides plans and instructions it’s our responsibility, as manufacturers, to ensure what we do confirms to best practices as described in AC43.13.

In an ideal world everything you say would be done. Unfortunately we live in a world where everything has a cost, and Vans has already flirted with bankruptcy. So to spend a lot of time and money to fix issues with no expectation of return on that investment is probably a step too far for them at this point.

 

[N10KE]

Vans has already flirted with bankruptcy.

They didn’t “flirt” with bankruptcy. It was a full fledged marriage.

Eschewing feedback and constructive criticism led to a prolonged period of “build on” instructions (presumably at the QB facilities as well) during the laser “miscut” parts fiasco that was the final nail in the proverbial coffin. That is/was an example of an attitude still somewhat present today.

The RV-10 design is over 20 years old. Not updating the plans to fix obvious errors is poor practice.

 

[PaulvS]

If it was available, I would have happily paid Van's an annual subscription fee (RVator?!) to update and improve anomalies and gaps in the drawings. This would have saved me considerable time, head scratching and rework over the years!

 

[rocketman1988]

The kit should be about building the safest, most consistent, highest performing airplane possible with as little frustration and wasted time by an amateur. I'm not understanding how having people spend time separating rivets helps that goal either.

The opportunity cost to vans improving the book and making it viable should be extremely minimal. All they need to do is listen to feedback and update the plans. I would hope the org is agile enough that they can update something which is blatantly wrong as a priority.

While you are building a "one off", it is still from a kit and any basic kit section should be possible to be followed exactly. Vans does not need to accommodate every single variation in builds. Variation only really happens towards the end, once the basic airframe is complete. The basic airframe sections should be possible to be completed with only the word of the instructions.

> Updating the plans for minor items is still a big deal, requiring engineering approval,

The alternative here is people leaving the plans to do things outside engineering approval. Also, several of the things I mentioned in my post are not at all minor. Pitch trim rigging, flap mechanism, etc. Just the other I also came across issues in the primary flight control rigging sections


As far as customer expectations increasing, my customer expectation is that I can rely on Vans as an engineering authority as the company who designed, tested and produced the kit. Vans is lucky that their customer base has the most incredible community of enthusiasts I've ever seen, but it doesn't change the fact that they still need to be accountable to produce accurate support.

Not sure what you are talking about with rigging, flaps, etc. I, as well as many others, found the instructions adequate to complete these tasks. Could it be written more clearly? SURE, but everyone comprehends things differently and no amount of updates can fix that.

If you are looking for a “tab A into slot B” type of instruction set, the RV-12 LSA is probably what you want; everything is the same, everything is standard, no deviation from the plans allowed.

I haven’t had any issues with support but that was prior to 2020…I’m sure that may not be the case at this point.

One thing is certain, the Rv builders community is awesome!

 

[bertschb]

Wanted to get people's experiences with Vans customer service.... I would like to hear others opinions before I commit to $200k to this project.

I've had great customer service in the short 2.5 years I've been working with Vans. I've placed dozens of orders and they all ship within a few days. I don't recall ever getting the wrong parts. I have had a few small items missing (e.g. nut plates, washers, etc) while doing the inventory of my kits. Not bad considering each kit has hundreds or thousands of parts. Once notified, Vans shipped out the missing parts within a day or two.

Having said that, as others have pointed out, their ordering and inventory system leaves much to be desired. Last week I needed to order parts for my FWF kit. More than half were backordered. You can't order backordered items through their website. You are forced to call instead. Sooooo, I called. A very nice gal picked up the phone within 15 seconds and we spent the next 20 minutes going through all the backordered parts that I needed HER to order for me. Such a waste of company time. I'm sure the calls got backed up while she was helping me. Nobody today should be forced to call a company to place an order.

My wife overheard me rattling off the part numbers I was ordering and cringed. She said they shouldn't use part numbers like that (e.g. "EA HOSE SI 5/8 ID X12 IN" or "AS3-125X1X9.313"). She worked with MRP/ERP systems prior to retiring. Vans probably had a great system 50 years ago but it's like they never changed their systems in the intervening years. It doesn't surprise my wife at all that Vans has trouble with forecasting, ordering, inventory, etc. I think they do the best they can with the antiquated systems they have. Vans is supposed to be updating their systems. Hopefully they will come online soon!

You didn't ask about cost but I thought I'd throw this in - I'm building a 14A and my airplane will cost over $300,000 by the time I'm done. I think the only way to do it for $200k would be to find used kits, used engine, steam gauges, DIY paint and interior, etc. Nothing at all wrong with that. Just want you to know $200,000 is on the very low end for an RV-14.

 

[mgroleau2125]

Ordered two fuel tank pick up tunes and a bunch of cleco’s on October 13th. After two weeks I emailed and got a response the same day.

Tunes were there but clecos they had to order. 30day wait from October 13. Fine… not a big deal.

As of November 24. Nothing. Emailed a week and a half ago for an update, finally got a response last Friday saying they would get with parts and find out what’s going on. Tried calling the parts department and the phone rang and rang with no answer

Now it’s Monday and still no answer…….i am starting to get annoyed

 

[chris1seto]

Not sure what you are talking about with rigging, flaps, etc. I, as well as many others, found the instructions adequate to complete these tasks. Could it be written more clearly? SURE, but everyone comprehends things differently and no amount of updates can fix that.

If you are looking for a “tab A into slot B” type of instruction set, the RV-12 LSA is probably what you want; everything is the same, everything is standard, no deviation from the plans allowed.

I haven’t had any issues with support but that was prior to 2020…I’m sure that may not be the case at this point.

One thing is certain, the Rv builders community is awesome!

The comment about "tab A into slot B"...

I actually do think that any kit built airplane should be this easy. I don't believe there is anything to be gained from unnecessarily difficult/unclear/incorrect instructions; I think there is a lot to be lost.

I've gotten the sense in some cases, builders have suggested they these kits need to be difficult to complete to weed out those not capable of being trusted to maintain an airplane that carries passengers. I'm not sure if that is your reason for mention this, and I am not implying it is, but to those builders I have the following response:

* The very first tail surface in the emp kit (which, in my experience, needed no significant deviations) is more than enough to weed these people out. By the time they have the entire emp kit done, the remaining build will not shake them out. There will also be plenty of room for problem solving after the basic airframe is complete and firewall forward/panel begins.

* As long as there are fabrication steps in the kit, there is plenty of room for teaching meachanical aptitude. For the issues I mentioned, the problem solving is just frustrating. I don't believe any actual mechanical skill is being taught by someone needing to work out the right threading to get the pitch trim to work out.

* Look at the history of lean manufacturing. There is a major case for instructions so easy anyone could accomplish. The point about improving instructions costing vans money... Not improving them costs plenty of money in support, builder frustration and safety.

 

[rocketman1988]

The comment about "tab A into slot B"...

I actually do think that any kit built airplane should be this easy. I don't believe there is anything to be gained from unnecessarily difficult/unclear/incorrect instructions; I think there is a lot to be lost.

I've gotten the sense in some cases, builders have suggested they these kits need to be difficult to complete to weed out those not capable of being trusted to maintain an airplane that carries passengers. I'm not sure if that is your reason for mention this, and I am not implying it is, but to those builders I have the following response:

* The very first tail surface in the emp kit (which, in my experience, needed no significant deviations) is more than enough to weed these people out. By the time they have the entire emp kit done, the remaining build will not shake them out. There will also be plenty of room for problem solving after the basic airframe is complete and firewall forward/panel begins.

* As long as there are fabrication steps in the kit, there is plenty of room for teaching meachanical aptitude. For the issues I mentioned, the problem solving is just frustrating. I don't believe any actual mechanical skill is being taught by someone needing to work out the right threading to get the pitch trim to work out.

* Look at the history of lean manufacturing. There is a major case for instructions so easy anyone could accomplish. The point about improving instructions costing vans money... Not improving them costs plenty of money in support, builder frustration and safety.

Still not sure of what you are talking about in the pitch trim example; while not the design I would have used, it went together fine and works as advertised.

I'm pretty sure Vans did not make the plans intentionally "unnecessarily difficult/unclear/incorrect". There are people from ALL walks of life that have successfully built these aircraft, even though each and every one has a different background and frame of reference. The plans also assume that you will learn as you go; that is why the later sections do not reference things that you should have learned earlier. The later sections just say final drill, debur, and rivet instead of spoon feeding every step involved.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree; building an airplane like an RV-10 just isn't going to be like putting together a Lego set. Of course there is always the opportunity for someone to try and make it that simple in the future.

For the old guys here, anyone remember trying to build the 100 watt Heathkit Stereo receiver? That definitely wasn't a lego set!

 

[RV7A Flyer]

The comment about "tab A into slot B"...

I actually do think that any kit built airplane should be this easy. I don't believe there is anything to be gained from unnecessarily difficult/unclear/incorrect instructions; I think there is a lot to be lost.

I've gotten the sense in some cases, builders have suggested they these kits need to be difficult to complete to weed out those not capable of being trusted to maintain an airplane that carries passengers. I'm not sure if that is your reason for mention this, and I am not implying it is, but to those builders I have the following response:

* The very first tail surface in the emp kit (which, in my experience, needed no significant deviations) is more than enough to weed these people out. By the time they have the entire emp kit done, the remaining build will not shake them out. There will also be plenty of room for problem solving after the basic airframe is complete and firewall forward/panel begins.

* As long as there are fabrication steps in the kit, there is plenty of room for teaching meachanical aptitude. For the issues I mentioned, the problem solving is just frustrating. I don't believe any actual mechanical skill is being taught by someone needing to work out the right threading to get the pitch trim to work out.

* Look at the history of lean manufacturing. There is a major case for instructions so easy anyone could accomplish. The point about improving instructions costing vans money... Not improving them costs plenty of money in support, builder frustration and safety.

I'll add one more reason.

It's just bad engineering not to regularly review and update documents and plans. They don't need to be updated every time some single item needs to be revised, but the list of discrepancies should be kept and, on a regular basis, incorporated into the plans and documents. I know Van's does this sometimes, as each of my kits came with the latest revisions of the plans for that section. What I'm reading is that these updates seems to be sporadic and dependent upon model, which belies the lack of a proper change control *system*.

Couple that with what appears to be continuing inventory control and QA problems, and you have the makings of a slow descent into some serious trouble. They've made it through bankruptcy, and have claimed to be addressing these issues, but it's not apparent that anything has changed, it seems.

When you get parts now, are they marked with anything other than the part number? Like, say, a lot number and/or date code?

 

[docjjrmd]

For the old guys here, anyone remember trying to build the 100 watt Heathkit Stereo receiver? That definitely wasn't a lego set!

Did that one. Actually pretty straight forward after the Heathkit SW receiver with SBO. It was all tubes, free wires, no PCBs. But the point being build to learn, learn to build. At the stage I am at in building/assembly I am jumping between 3 kits, Power, Avionics, and Finish. It is much easier to accomplish tasks working parallel paths, faster too, not following rote step fashion.

 

[K9tazer]

I started my first ever build on 07-10-2022 the RV-7A. Many hours on this forum reading, learning, and trying to figure out the journey. Part of the journey was trying to stay informed through this forum, which has helped immensely. After spending hours on this forum I understood the directions through each build process became less detailed (true). All part of the process.

What I have found with Vans customer service, in the last month or so, is the customer service has declined dramatically from what it was.

My most recent experience:

I am currently working on my QB fuselage and ran into an issue concerning the steps. I ordered two steps and that was reflected on the inventory, but when I started building I realized they had only provided one F-6125 block, which secure the step to the F-726 baggage rib. This was also reflected on the inventory that they had provided one block on the inventory (which there should have been two) and I had checked it off as receiving one block.
After calling the parts team and speaking with Izzy (Not real name don't want to call her out on forum) she advised I would have to email orders@vansaircraft and they could help me, but she could not.
I did what was asked and after 24 hours I received an email response from Izzy (Odd they would have two females named Izzy working for Vans, but possible.)
Izzy informed me it was past the 30-day inventory time frame to notify Vans of missing parts in inventory and they couldn't help.
I explained I'm a new builder and had no way of knowing I was missing a part, that should have been sent, until I started the build.
After four emails with two different parts team member and photo showing my inventory no response back. I asked for a phone call and called to speak to someone about the issue and no call back.


This has been my experience with customer service post bankruptcy. I never had an issue prior.

FYI- I just ordered the part on my own knowing it has been taking approximately two weeks before parts have been shipping. No need for further delay.

Build on!

 

[TYK]

“Lean” thinking gives you what you are complaining about!!! It and most other management ideas coming out of the “elite” schools gives you CEO’s who think dunk tanks (osh update ‘24) solve morale issues brought on by management that governs from on high, never shoulder to shoulder, focused on EBITDA multiples and their stock options at the next “event”. Definitely NOT more than lip service to customers.

“Van’s” is gone, never to be recovered. RV’s will always be here, the planes are just too good, but the heart of the company has been ripped out and replaced by heartless process as is common in PE style management.

I love the positive vibe this forum has had.
Can we just bury “Van’s”, accept that the new company will suck and get back to talking about building these fantastic RV-planes?
Been wanting to vent that for a while, thanks DR for the soapbox!

 

[Bearman]

I started my first ever build on 07-10-2022 the RV-7A. Many hours on this forum reading, learning, and trying to figure out the journey. Part of the journey was trying to stay informed through this forum, which has helped immensely. After spending hours on this forum I understood the directions through each build process became less detailed (true). All part of the process.

What I have found with Vans customer service, in the last month or so, is the customer service has declined dramatically from what it was.

My most recent experience:

I am currently working on my QB fuselage and ran into an issue concerning the steps. I ordered two steps and that was reflected on the inventory, but when I started building I realized they had only provided one F-6125 block, which secure the step to the F-726 baggage rib. This was also reflected on the inventory that they had provided one block on the inventory (which there should have been two) and I had checked it off as receiving one block.
After calling the parts team and speaking with Izzy (Not real name don't want to call her out on forum) she advised I would have to email orders@vansaircraft and they could help me, but she could not.
I did what was asked and after 24 hours I received an email response from Izzy (Odd they would have two females named Izzy working for Vans, but possible.)
Izzy informed me it was past the 30-day inventory time frame to notify Vans of missing parts in inventory and they couldn't help.
I explained I'm a new builder and had no way of knowing I was missing a part, that should have been sent, until I started the build.
After four emails with two different parts team member and photo showing my inventory no response back. I asked for a phone call and called to speak to someone about the issue and no call back.


This has been my experience with customer service post bankruptcy. I never had an issue prior.

FYI- I just ordered the part on my own knowing it has been taking approximately two weeks before parts have been shipping. No need for further delay.

Build on!

I'm going through the same issue on a few parts..........It's ok that they can keep making the same mistakes over and over but as long as they can get us to keep paying for their same mistakes it's ok to keep making them. I also placed an online order 2 1/2 weeks ago with everything in stock and it still hasn't shipped.

 

[RNB]

Full disclosure: I got my wing kits and did not open them or inventory them. If anything is missing I won't complain about it online or blame customer service. I'll put on my big boy pants and chalk it up to circumstances I was in control of.

 

[DanH]

The comment about "tab A into slot B"...

I actually do think that any kit built airplane should be this easy. I don't believe there is anything to be gained from unnecessarily difficult/unclear/incorrect instructions; I think there is a lot to be lost.

This from a guy writing checks for builder assistance.

Yeah, I'm feeling curmudgeon-like today. Vans is the most successful kitplane manufacturer in history because the parts, textual instructions, and plans (meaning big sheets hung on the wall) were and are more than adequate to build a very nice airplane.

Good grief Chris, you're a flight instructor. Have you figured out a way to shortcut becoming a skilled pilot, or do you think those students just need to knuckle down and learn fundamentals?

The shop is no different, and there is a lot to be gained.

I will now go mumble to myself while rib stitching

 

[wirejock]

The comments here are exactly why there is a "Gotchas" thread on most models and why many builders bailed on VAF. I know three who never visit and have no interest. That's sad.

For new builders...
Refer to the "Gotchas" thread for your model then run a part number search before beginning any component. Vans probably will not update the manual for them so the argument is pointless.

Find a Mentor who won't bust your chops and ask them questions.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

This from a guy writing checks for builder assistance.

Yeah, I'm feeling curmudgeon-like today. Vans is the most successful kitplane manufacturer in history because the parts, textual instructions, and plans (meaning big sheets hung on the wall) were and are more than adequate to build a very nice airplane.

Good grief Chris, you're a flight instructor. Have you figured out a way to shortcut becoming a skilled pilot, or do you think those students just need to knuckle down and learn fundamentals?

The shop is no different, and there is a lot to be gained.

I will now go mumble to myself while rib stitching

Leaving aside all the personal jabs here...

Van's was SO successful that they went bankrupt. So when customers are complaining about lack of customer service, lack of updated documentation, lack of proper inventory control (still), lack of apparent QA (still), it just MIGHT behoove them to listen and CONSIDER that if things don't change, they may head down that Chapter 11 Avenue *again*.

Cheerleading for them is fine, but it's 2025 now, not 1955.

 

[bertschb]

...are more than adequate to build a very nice airplane.

I agree they are adequate. I say that because I have no prior build experience and unlike many others on this forum, I came into my build lacking virtually all the skills needed to build an airplane. And yet, I'm staring at a mostly completed airframe and made very few mistakes along the way. So yes, the plans are adequate. But, I spent HUNDREDS of hours digging through all kinds of resources OUTSIDE of the plans to make sure I didn't screw up the vague or misleading steps IN the plans.

I feel Vans should make the minor effort needed to update their plans occasionally. There are errors with part numbers, some significant omissions, some areas that lack sufficient details, etc. The result is builders are forced to spend more time than necessary to figure some things out. Plus, it costs Vans in support calls. The same calls over and over and over because they refuse to simply update their ten or twenty year old plans.

The irony here is that the work to identify which sections of the plans need to be updated has already been done - at least for the RV-14. Vans just needs to hire a kid to go through the Wiki and jot down all the places that are unclear, have errors, etc. 90% of these updates would not require an engineer's approval. This task would take a week at most. Correct a part number here, add an arrow there, add a few more words to a sentence to make it more clear. Such an easy and inexpensive win!

Vans does an incredible job documenting the correct build sequence. Pretty remarkable really. "Rivet everything but these two holes". Ten pages later you learn why those two holes were left open. Genius! This is their strength! But, there are many, many steps that just need a couple extra words for clarity. Just a little more effort to reduce technical support calls, reduce builder errors, reduce replacement parts orders, improve build quality and reduce builder frustration. All one has to do is look at the Wiki and see some pages riddled with comments and links back to VAF with lengthy discussions with folks trying to figure out what the heck they are supposed to do.

 

[RVbySDI]

Van’s support has for sure changed in the past 1/2 decade. I will admit that. However, for all complaining about the quality of the build instructions, might I suggest doing some comparison to other kit manufacturer’s instructions. Regardless of what errors and/or clarity issues may exist, they pail in comparison to other kit manufacturers.

 

[bertschb]

...for all complaining about the quality of the build instructions...

My issue is really more about Vans being lazy, not customer focused and not seeing the obvious correlation between the clarity/accuracy of their plans and unnecessary and expensive customer support calls. I want Vans to grow and thrive. Business as usual won't get them there.

 

[N10KE]

Van’s support has for sure changed in the past 1/2 decade. I will admit that. However, for all complaining about the quality of the build instructions, might I suggest doing some comparison to other kit manufacturer’s instructions. Regardless of what errors and/or clarity issues may exist, they pail in comparison to other kit manufacturers.

Have you looked at the build manuals from Sling? Or how they organize their kits? Take a look at the POH and Maintenance Manuals (for all their models) on the Sling website and show me where to find the comparable versions from Van’s.

Not saying the latest model build manuals from Van’s are inadequate, but I don’t buy that they are better than everyone else.

 

[Ironflight]

Have you looked at the build manuals from Sling? Or how they organize their kits? Take a look at the POH and Maintenance Manuals (for all their models) on the Sling website and show me where to find the comparable versions from Van’s.

Not saying the latest model build manuals from Van’s are inadequate, but I don’t buy that they are better than everyone else.

Have you looked at the price of a Sling? Or a Carbon Cub? Want to pay that much for an RV? They have really fabulous manuals BTW….

(But how about the build manual for a Sonex…oh, their isn’t one - just plans! Same thing for many of the “traditional” kits out there.)

People always say “you get what you pay for”, but the corollary to that is “you pay for what you get”…..

 

[DanH]

Van's was SO successful that they went bankrupt. So when customers are complaining about lack of customer service, lack of updated documentation, lack of proper inventory control (still), lack of apparent QA (still), it just MIGHT behoove them to listen and CONSIDER that if things don't change, they may head down that Chapter 11 Avenue *again*.

Absolutely agree, and I'm no Vans apologist. The kids got drunk on a rush of covid-era orders and crashed the car. Daddy bailed them out, but the hangover is going to last a while.

Consider just one complaint, inventory control. I'll suggest "just in time" inventory probably isn't optional. Post-bankruptcy, vendors don't deliver without cash. Stacking inventory is really stacking piles of cash, and right now the cash is borrowed. So, management focuses on turns. Instead of putting 1000 ribs on the shelf and selling 100 per month with a nice cushion, you stock 200 (i.e. 20% of the previous cash stack), re-order when 100 are sold, and hope the vendor can keep up. Nobody likes it, including the vendor, but there isn't much choice, and it's not going to change until the company can return to a significantly positive balance sheet...which the RV-15 might do.

Here patience isn't generosity of spirit. It's reality. We need to keep our demands realistic.

Van’s support has for sure changed in the past 1/2 decade. I will admit that. However, for all complaining about the quality of the build instructions, might I suggest doing some comparison to other kit manufacturer’s instructions.

Yep. I've not been entirely happy about some issues at Vans, but really, look around. Did you know an early Sonex Onex had 208 drawing revisions in about two years? How would you like it if some detail of your RV instructions changed every 3-1/2 days on average?

Don't get me started on the AeroVee engine.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

People always say “you get what you pay for”, but the corollary to that is “you pay for what you get”…..

"'Tis a false economy to invest in cheap goods." - Local Hero

 

[Bearman]

Just an update on an order I placed. Two weeks old now and still preparing to ship. I was told it was probably waiting in crating because they only have one person crating now. I explained that it was only a couple of skins and they do not crate them anymore and are shipped in a cardboard box but it is still considered crating. I would hope they are selling enough parts that they would need more than 1 person crating. I was told he is probably at least a week behind............ya think? LOL

 

[N10KE]

We need to keep our demands realistic.

I believe that prompt and accurate fulfillment of an order is realistic. If a mistake is made, owning it and promptly rectifying it is also realistic. Timely and accurate communications - the same.

What does unrealistic look like?

 

[DanH]

Again, Krea, absolutely agree with both points. Order fulfilment and owning mistakes are fundamental.

Unrealistic is revision of the plans and instructions because some small percentage struggle. Unrealistic is calling the Vans staff "lazy", when current circumstances probably make it a demanding place to work. Unrealistic is public complaint, because it's useless.

Got a service problem? Send an email to management, with a suggestion about how fix it. That's realistic, and I'm guessing you'll get a nice note in return. It may or may not go your way, but for sure none of us can fix your issue.

 

[bertschb]

Unrealistic is revision of the plans and instructions because some small percentage struggle.

"Sorry you ruined that part because our plans were wrong. Let me transfer you to our parts department so you can buy a replacement part. No, we're not going to update the plans. We've only had 328 other people make that same mistake. It's easier if you just order new parts. Have a nice day."

 

[Jonnyb]

I think they are more likely to retire the older kits than they are to update the plans for them.

If you’re building anything other than a -10, -14, or -15 I wonder if our days are numbered.

 

[Dan 57]

more likely to retire the older kits than they are to update the plans for them

Yep, could well be.
Whilst building the -4, yes a long time ago, I quickly realised not to fully trust the plans... nor the manual. Cutting the VS/HS T piece out of the blank according to the plans, and then one would quickly find out that, though spot-on given the measurements, it would then be too small to comply with edge distances... lesson learned early.
Revisions for the plans came, occasionally, printed out in the RVator (IIRC), and one had to make them directly on the paper plans, good fun really, and part of the build.

Ok, let's put these stories from another time aside.

Commitment & dedication:
Anyone engaging her/himself in building an aircraft does commit to a certain amount of work. We've seen the evolution thru the line with pre-punching (or pre-drilled), pre-punched to final size, quick-builts, etc.
Fact is, even the most finished quick-built kit will require a certain amount of commitment and dedication. And this will involve delving thru the inventory, into the plans and what's now called KAIs. This is, and has to be, part of the process, or shall I say, learning experience. And the very definition of that aircraft category.

Yes, it could be better, it always can, but I'm sure resources at Vans are precious, and mostly geared towards the new model(s), design improvement on some older parts, and the normal runnings of such a manufacturer.

Today's builder has one huge advantage nowadays, the possibility to come to this site (and others) and learn all about the commitment and dedication you will have to apply during that build.
And then that freedom to make your own choice, as in "nope, too much for me, I'm gonna be shopping for a 2nd hand homebuilt now", or "yeah, let's embrace the challenges, all of them, and solve them as part of the process".

 

[Jetmart]

Got a service problem? Send an email to management, with a suggestion about how fix it. That's realistic, and I'm guessing you'll get a nice note in return. It may or may not go your way, but for sure none of us can fix your issue.

A couple of weeks ago I sent Rian an email asking a question that I thought only he could answer. I apologized for bothering him with such a trivial email. He replied with what I was looking for within an hour.

 

[Jjackh10]

I resisted ordering anything from vans. It's hard for me to support a company that did wrong to so many, and by all accounts hasn't made the changes needed to avoid doing it again.

Their prices were a bit less than ACS so I ordered a few small things. First 2 orders were shipped in a few days (not ACS speed but acceptable in the aviation world). My 3rd order is still "preparing shipment" today 18 days later. I've already ordered and received the parts from ACS and would cancel the vans order if I could. This will be the last money I give them. One customer won't make a difference, but how long before others get the same attitude?

 

[flysrv10]

Got a service problem? Send an email to management, with a suggestion about how fix it. That's realistic, and I'm guessing you'll get a nice note in return. It may or may not go your way, but for sure none of us can fix your issue.

I did just that minus the suggestion. Cricket!

Not piling on....Just hoping Van reads and makes notes.

 

[DeltaRomeo]

The 42yr old baking element went out in our oven.

I took a picture of the oven with my phone and threw that into Grok and asked it what the model number of the baking element was, and where can I order one? Two seconds later I had a product and a link. “This is a vintage GE P7 Self Cleaning…”

That I have accurate information like this available to me anytime I want it leaves me nearly speechless.

Got the replacement element……later than promised, and with wrong screws. They only made three million of these ovens and the replacement company has only sold 19,000 replacement elements, so I give ‘em a break.

My point being (hopefully) we live in an amazing, jaw-dropingly advanced world, airplanes are hard to build, and when folks could finally move money from their checking account into savings using a magic rectangle in the pocket I think society gravitated toward expected every other aspect of their existence being fulfilled instantly, and perfectly 24/7.

I will track the next FedEx package I get in real time, tapping my foot and pissed the driver turned left instead of right three blocks from my house. A house that got more expensive without my permission - I demand satisfaction.

Building and finishing an airplane is hard (HARD!) and I didn’t expect much of it to go smoothly. It didn’t. I’m grateful to have the opportunity to complain, but this hobby for almost everyone IS. A. FIRST. WORLD. PROBLEM. I try to remind myself that every now and then. Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to find a forum somewhere focusing on replacement oven parts, join it, so I can vent about the wrong screws before heading out to one of my two additional part time jobs so I can pay for bandwidth here and my 42yr old house with a new baking element.

Ten steps forward, nine point seven steps back is what I’m hoping to convey. That I even got the baking element is a minor miracle. I’ll adapt on the screws. I'm grateful I have an airplane at all, much less get to actually fly it once a month or so.

And with that I’ll lock this thread. The folks who wanted to vent, and those usual suspects that wanted to pile on, did.

v/r,dr

Bonus:
My Roomba, which was advertised as able to solve all my cleaning needs, got caught on the drapes cord, and spun itself in left circles until it raised a wheel off the ground and the battery died. The ground track was epic. Roomba, Inc, prepare to be vented at. I demand satisfaction.