Thanks for posting this!
Van's Air Force
The definitive Van's Aircraft support community! Buying, building or flying an RV? Join our exclusive family of mentors and enthusiasts!
Close call, Stall on Final
- Thread starter climberrn
- Start date
Fffflats
Well Known Member
Too many out there do a lap in the pattern as their maintenance check for me not to raise the point. I don’t think raising the point is chastising or harsh. I assumed you had bad airspeed while having slow AOA indications and turned downwind. Because this is what your post stated. Note not only did you have bad data, you still didn’t know what else could have been wrong for a post maintenance flight. Both are reasons to continue climbing to figure stuff out.
Your EGT values in pistons don’t matter much. Trends do. And your EGTs are probably hotter than 500. Assume you mean if CHT > 500? There are land immediately emergencies but loss of airspeed, wrong airspeed, slow AOA aren’t them. CHT at 500 wouldn’t make me rush the landing either except should it either have been rising rapidly through or be significantly greater than 500 or it be winter time (then again, I was flying out of Inyokern in August). A downwind turn as you’re describing would fit such but your implication is more the rushed landing and rushed landings add lots of risk. A calm immediate turn to downwind does too if your data systems are suspect. Don’t confuse the two. I’d put this more in the abnormality category than emergency and even with emergencies, many are better done by getting up and away then dealing with them. Consider you get a nasty swerve just at rotation, but since you’re rotating, you’re now airborne. Abort isn’t an option (aside high speed aborts are their own risk), if a long runway, though, you could land straight ahead. You could do the downwind. But you’re stable now. You could climb and do a controllability check determining if you should add some knots for the pattern then take some time to consider blown tire offset landing, seek a wider runway, seek crosswind from the side swerved away from… some things are better getting up and away taking time airborne.
Instead we have thread drift.
Fffflats
Well Known Member
Or hangar talk. The natural flow that occurs with “there I was” stories and confessions. All of which contribute to learning and safer flying.
Interesting that you know the "Achilles heel" of Lancair 36o's.
Had my UMA made ASI (Vans Aircraft ASI) get stuck at 135 knots last summer while cruising to KPWT. Noticing no change in airspeed while slowing into the traffic pattern, I tried tapping on the ASI, but it remained stuck at 135 knots. So, we used GPS ground speed, accounting for the headwind component to achieve the desired airspeed into KPWT (desired approach airspeed = GPS ground speed + headwind component). Once on the ground, the ASI needle suddenly popped back to zero. Returning to KPAE after lunch, the ASI needle got stuck once again at exactly 135 knots. So, we did the same thing while landing at KPAE. I don't have a stall buzzer or AOG, but I thought about this possibility some years prior and had a plan. Before flying again, we sent the defective ASI to UMA for repairs, where they found the issue, fixed it, cleaned the movement and sent it back free of change.
Last edited:
Thread drift?
There have been plenty of good constructive messages with lots of solid input on this problem. I find it humorous...that because some dis-coloration on a vinyl tube which could result from a bug, mold, mildew, cleaning product, or any other cause...which is easily seen and found at any inspection interval via simple visual inspection of the area, constitutes a reason to go squawking that the sky is falling for the whole group calling the kit manufacturer over nothing...
Any builder/pilot...not aware of static and alternate static sources...should know that static sources can get clogged, for reasons, endless, and that static sources need occasional maintenance and inspection too, should now be aware.
It's a good idea...to be prepared that you are flying an experimental aircraft and reminded that you may experience an anomaly occasionally and should be mentally prepared to deal with such issues from time to time...
It's called Pilot in Command for a reason.
This has been a good thread and once again, I respect and applaud the Original Poster for sharing his issue, so that all can raise their awareness, yet further, as to being prepared to handle their business (which the OP did).
It takes trust to post issues like these, that ALL can benefit from. IF they choose to.
The thread drift, to me...is taking a learning opportunity and trying to turn it into a call to arms for un-necessary action with a half-cocked thesis.
Last edited:
bobrv7taildragger
Well Known Member
you know its a good shot across the bow where nothing major happened. lot to read here so sorry if this has already been mentioned. Take note of your machine and give yourself some pitch and power settings...commit them to memory. pitch and power equals flight. I fly jets for a living and believe me if everything goes haywire we turn basically everything automation off...set a know pitch and power setting which equals flight ....for us on the 787 its 10 degrees and 85% n1 with flap out and 4 degrees 70 % no flap....no matter where we are this equals a safe operating area...time to diagnose an issue. now I know we aint flying jets here but the concept is the same....know your machine.....if in doubt go around....you know where to put the nose and use full power...known.....set power and pitch for the cruise....then again for the descent....cant help you with the issue but looks like many here have....but take a note next time what you set....if the pitch is higher or the power lower than normal....controls not feeling right....the hairs should stand up quicker on the back of your neck.....
I now think I was getting un reliable information for a while. The big change was I was coming into a short strip that I wasn’t entirely comfortable with, even though I practiced short field the day before. Was so focused on landing at minimum airspeed, and I backed myself into a corner. Hindsight is very clear. I’m happy we came out of it unscathed. This is with 1000+ hours in type. It can happen to any (most) of us. Be careful out there guys.When driving transport Cat A/C we always practised unreliable AS in the Sim using…. pitch+ power= performance, even though I’ve retired I still practice this in the RV, worth keeping that skill sharp especially in todays high tech cockpits of GA light AC
Thanks for all the positive responses. Partial panel, GPS only, alt static open are a few of the things I will work on. I truly think we wouldn’t be having this conversation if we were landing on a paved, longer strip. My eyes are mostly outside and I’m not pushing to land slow any other time.
Fffflats
Well Known Member
I’d modify this. If in doubt and have no specific reason against doing so, go around. Go arounds are not free. Yet we treat them as if they are. This is a mistake. Go arounds create their own risk, it is usually just that this risk is lesser or perceived to be lesser than the risk of continuing. When such is lesser, good. When it is merely perceived as such, mmm.
I’m really not a fan of “you can always go around.” Nope. I don’t really like that little tune singing such that is out now. It is, however, usually less risky. Difference in this way of thinking. Not as catchy a jingo either. Note a go around crash is more likely to be fatal than a landing crash. You may have doubt about other things while you may be clear that a go around is not good. It is rare, but such happens. You can have that skeptical sensation yet already know the out isn’t available. The out not being available might even be cause of the sensation, which kind of stinks, as this means you don’t know if that sensation is trying to tell you something else. What sucks is if you have doubt and also you are uncertain about go around capacity. Then you’re forked, you’re in the horns, Kobayashi Maru.
I am sure with that 787 that in the sim they’ve given you scenarios with no go around option. And I’m also sure they’ve given scenarios with that doubt all around trying to pick the least bad while not having full means to determine least bad option. Which makes a nice segue for Klein first fit pattern matching, recognition primed decision making (which often looks like non-decision instead just action), and Kahneman system one, Boyd OODA both the top loop and the normal loop. Which gets back to the rest of your comment, you need condition yourself with expected values, normal conditions and variances so as to have the patterns available to match even if you don’t recognize you’re thinking of them at the moment of need. WYSIATI.
Talk about a word salad…
Some started in gliders, solo by 14.
Want to get in trouble for going around? Soar a thermal out of the landing pattern at 500'.
Want to get in trouble for going around? Soar a thermal out of the landing pattern at 500'.
bobrv7taildragger
Well Known Member
I reckon...sounds like a lot of words to me. too many silly sentences. what would I know...24000 hours and i'm still here. done plenty of go arounds. only times I'd not be going around is if I thought A...we might lose the aircraft..(uncontained fire or the operating engine on fire and the other failed) B...low fuel situation and C... if it appears more dangerous than landing. Most of the time If in doubt....go around. it's a standard procedure and should not faze a practiced pilot. He is talking human factors 101 like we don't study them...yes all the decision making models....different for professional pilots practicing regularly than the fine weather pilot...if your engine is working and the weather ok....and you are not on fire or plugged yourself deep up a valley then a go around is probably the best course of action for the average weekend pilot.
It reminds me off a story I heard about fly eggs being a nasty brown mass. Is it possible an insect found the static system to be a safe spot to lay eggs?
I've had two separate airspeed failures in my RV-9A -- one due to a bee flying into my pitot tube after takeoff, and another when my Vans UMA airspeed indicator stuck at 135 knots while slowing down from cruise. Ever since Phase 1 flight testing back in 2004, I always cross-check final approach speed with my WAAS GPS ground speed by adding the approximate headwind component to my GPS ground speed. I don't have an AOA or stall tab but have always used this method to cross-check my final approach speed. It's also a good idea to practice slow-flight and how it feels when it's getting too slow.
Fffflats
Well Known Member
Alternately you could crosscheck pitch while flying straight and level. You could also crosscheck pitch merely flying straight if on a known flight path angle, glide path, or glide slope. All good tools to have.
I think in the early days of glider flying in the US they had not gotten around to regulating gliders. Also in that era there was a question of what was legally a glider. The primary gliders were single seat towed behind a vehicle with the instructor sitting on the back of the vehicle and using hand signals to instruct the "student". So the first "flight" was actually the first solo. I am still searching for answers but it appears that solo flights well before age 14 were common.
Al Bennett soloed his son at age 11 in Mexico and his daughter at age 10 in Cuba. Both in Taylorcraft's. The son is still active in gliders in Western PA.
