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G3X and TFR’s not showing

T

torquen

Active Member
Good morning. Here in CA we get a ton of TFR’s during the fire season. Right now we have two active TFR’s due to fire fighting operations. The one to the East of me shows up that has been there for several weeks. Two days ago a group of us flew to the West. On foreflight the TFR shows up so I knew to stay to the North. On my G3X it never came up. As far as I can see I have all the TFR settings turned on. I also tried setting the distance to Auto and all the way to 800 miles. Could not get the TFR to come up. I’ll post a couple of pics. In FF you can see the TFR as active. In my g3x it isn’t visible.
I’m running a GDL50R as the ADSB receiver.
 

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BobTurner said:
Any chance you were so low that you couldn’t pick up an adsb ground station?
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Went from ground level to 7,500. Highest mountain in that area is around 4500. So should have been plenty high. I have heard a few others having this issue as well so wanted to see how wide spread it is.
 
I have the same issue with my g3x and gtx45R. After installation I would get TFRs on screen around the Chicago area. Now for the last couple years I can not get TFRs to show up on screen. Even after updating firmware, changing settings, etc.. I just gave up and check with ForeFlight prior to any trips
 
How does the rest of the FIS-B data set "look" -- METARS, TAFS, CWA, Lightning, etc. etc.? Is it just TFRs that are missing?
 
We have had many fire TFRs in our neighborhood, and they always show up on foreflight, and never with my G3x-GNX375 combo.

So I always keep my pbone on its mag mount, running foreflight. But I agree it should be on the big bucks display.
 
So it looks like this is a common problem. Can each of you that has this issue please write an email to [email protected]
They will make a ticket and get this to the engineering dept. Hopefully they get on this since it’s a pretty critical problem. They have already made a ticket from my email.
 
Yes, all TFRs will not show up through the ADS-B link. Garmin told me last year that this was a function of the data coming in from said link and was not a limitation of the Garmin unit. That being said, Foreflight displays those missing TFRs through the same data link. Hopefully someone will get a more technical answer from Garmin.
 
mfleming said:
Yes, all TFRs will not show up through the ADS-B link. Garmin told me last year that this was a function of the data coming in from said link and was not a limitation of the Garmin unit. That being said, Foreflight displays those missing TFRs through the same data link. Hopefully someone will get a more technical answer from Garmin.
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Yeah that doesn’t make sense at all. I can have my iPad running on a stratus with zero cell data and I get all the TFR’s via adsb. Definitely sounds like it’s a Garmin problem.
 
mfleming said:
Yes, all TFRs will not show up through the ADS-B link. Garmin told me last year that this was a function of the data coming in from said link and was not a limitation of the Garmin unit. That being said, Foreflight displays those missing TFRs through the same data link. Hopefully someone will get a more technical answer from Garmin.
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Is it possible that foreflight is just picking them up over wifi prior to departure?
 
gkochers said:
Is it possible that foreflight is just picking them up over wifi prior to departure?
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It was my understanding (not confirmed) that FF grabs TFR data whenever it sees it and stores it on the device untill its expiration. Given that a lot of TFRs are posted days before their active time, it is possible that FF is just showing stored TFR data (grabbed days earlier from a WiFi connection) that is not coming over the FAA grd to air transmissions. In this scenario, it is possible the transmissions are not complete and FF would show things that garmin does not. I suspect that the internet based TFR source is a far more reliable source.
 
lr172 said:
It was my understanding (not confirmed) that FF grabs TFR data whenever it sees it and stores it on the device untill its expiration. Given that a lot of TFRs are posted days before their active time, it is possible that FF is just showing stored TFR data (grabbed days earlier from a WiFi connection) that is not coming over the FAA grd to air transmissions. In this scenario, it is possible the transmissions are not complete and FF would show things that garmin does not. I suspect that the internet based TFR source is a far more reliable source.
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I suspect your take on this is true. To add to your observations - I run (in addition to a G3X) Foreflight on both my cell phone and on a panel mounted iPad. My iPad will only update via Wi-Fi (no cell phone data plan on it) - which I think is a key point.

I’ve taken to updating FF on my cell phone just before take-off (using the “pack” feature on FF) while doing my run-up. I’m doing this via cell tower. In doing so, I’ve captured the latest/newest TFRs that didn’t previously download onto my iPad when it was connected to Wi-Fi.

I’ve done this because I’ve noticed that many times not only doesn’t my G3X have the latest TFRs, my iPad doesn’t as well - they don’t seem to be updating via adsb in the cockpit reliably.

I can’t say I know what the underlying issue is - I just know that many times my cell phone FF app will show a TFR that will not show up on either the G3X or my Wi-Fi only iPad.

Glad this thread popped up - this is a baffling issue it seems for a lot of folks. And, I have to imagine it could be a cause of some TFR busting - especially out here on the west coast with all the fire TFRs we get.
 
Some things to keep in mind as you are looking at this.

FAR AIM chapter 7 says the NOTAM-TFR FIS-B Transmission Interval is 10 minutes.

The footnote says:
"The Transmission Interval is the amount of time within which a new or updated product transmission must be completed (95%) and the rate or repetition interval at which the product is rebroadcast (95%)."

If you just missed the start of the update message, it could then take 10 minutes for the next update message to start, and could take 10 minutes for the update message to to complete.

So it seems to me that it is possible that it will take upto 20 minutes after you are in reception range of a UAT tower to have 95% chance of getting a complete message for the NOTAM-TFR.

The UAT link is line of sight, so you might not receive UAT until you have climbed high enough.


"FIS-B provides the meteorological and aeronautical data to the cockpit. This service is not a client-based service, but rather is always broadcast into the airspace on the UAT frequency. This information is not broadcast on the 1090MHz frequency."

ADSB traffic in on 1090 ES, is separate from 978 UAT FIS-B TFRs. So seeing live traffic doesn't mean you will necessarily get TFRs if the UAT in or FIS-B or NOTAM-TFR or EFIS are not working.
 
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KMMUflyer said:
Some things to keep in mind as you are looking at this.

FAR AIM chapter 7 says the NOTAM-TFR FIS-B Transmission Interval is 10 minutes.

The footnote says:
"The Transmission Interval is the amount of time within which a new or updated product transmission must be completed (95%) and the rate or repetition interval at which the product is rebroadcast (95%)."

So it seems to me that it is possible that it will take upto 20 minutes after you are in reception range of a UAT tower to have 95% chance of getting the NOTAM-TFR.


"FIS-B provides the meteorological and aeronautical data to the cockpit. This service is not a client-based service, but rather is always broadcast into the airspace on the UAT frequency. This information is not broadcast on the 1090MHz frequency."

ADSB traffic in on 1090 ES, is separate from 978 UAT FIS-B TFRs. So seeing live traffic doesn't mean you will necessarily get TFRs if the UAT in or FIS-B or NOTAM-TFR or EFIS are not working.
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Don’t you mean 10 minutes, not 20, for the possible delay?
 
KMMUflyer said:
Some things to keep in mind as you are looking at this.

FAR AIM chapter 7 says the NOTAM-TFR FIS-B Transmission Interval is 10 minutes.

The footnote says:
"The Transmission Interval is the amount of time within which a new or updated product transmission must be completed (95%) and the rate or repetition interval at which the product is rebroadcast (95%)."

If you just missed the start of the update message, it could then take 10 minutes for the next update message to start, and could take 10 minutes for the update message to to complete.

So it seems to me that it is possible that it will take upto 20 minutes after you are in reception range of a UAT tower to have 95% chance of getting a complete message for the NOTAM-TFR.

The UAT link is line of sight, so you might not receive UAT until you have climbed high enough.


"FIS-B provides the meteorological and aeronautical data to the cockpit. This service is not a client-based service, but rather is always broadcast into the airspace on the UAT frequency. This information is not broadcast on the 1090MHz frequency."

ADSB traffic in on 1090 ES, is separate from 978 UAT FIS-B TFRs. So seeing live traffic doesn't mean you will necessarily get TFRs if the UAT in or FIS-B or NOTAM-TFR or EFIS are not working.
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On my flight the other day I was definitely high enough and also over an hr in that general area. I should have easily grabbed the data.
On my next flight I will bring my iPad that is cellular but does not have a cell plan. I’ve had it off for weeks. I will turn it on in the plane and connect it to my gdl50 via Bluetooth and run foreflight. If the TFR comes up on my iPad but not the g3x then that will show if it’s a g3x issue.
 
torquen said:
On my flight the other day I was definitely high enough and also over an hr in that general area. I should have easily grabbed the data.
On my next flight I will bring my iPad that is cellular but does not have a cell plan. I’ve had it off for weeks. I will turn it on in the plane and connect it to my gdl50 via Bluetooth and run foreflight. If the TFR comes up on my iPad but not the g3x then that will show if it’s a g3x issue.
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Great thread, and I really wish a G3Xpert would chime in.

This is not just a G3X problem. It is a Garmin problem. I haven't yet flown with my newly installed G3X system, but before my upgrade I noticed the missing TFR problem many times while flying with an Aera 660 tied by RS-232 to my GDL-50R. With the iPad showing a full display of TFRs in the area (Blue-Toothed to the GDL), the Garmin display remained blank. The ADS-B uplinks were always strong, but the TFRs were nowhere to be seen.

I, too, think it's a sad testament that it takes an iPad or similar extraneous device to fly confidently where TFRs are present while, with a sadly depleted bank account, I cannot rely on my G3X panel to display what it clearly advertises. We need a solution to this ASAP!
 
So with the data coming into foreflight using your gdl it shows? That’s what I was going to try my next flight. I tried this same thing using foreflight and my stratus 2S and it definitely showed all the TFR’s.

But if your gdl is bringing in the info and foreflight shows it but not the g3x then it definitely has to be something Garmin needs to fix. That same day I was picking up another fire over by Placerville that had been active fire a good week. The one I was flying toward was up for at least two days prior to my flight. So it wasn’t like it popped up that morning.

I tried sending a message to g3expert but my account does not allow me to send a message to him.
 
Seriously, you all need to stay apples to apples, if you aren't trying Garmin Pilot with the GDL <whatever> then you aren't proving much. Just to prove that Foreflight shows the TFR's really means nothing to this issue. You need to determine if it's a datalink issue (e.g. GDL <whatever>), or a G3X issue. Using Garmin Pilot with it's BT connection to a 45R or similar should be the tell, if you get TFR's and you don't on the G3X, then you know where the issue is... But I would strongly suggest that you stop the comparison with Foreflight.... Besides, Garmin isn't likely to take much credibility with all the Foreflight comments... but if you can show that their entire ecosystem is munged, you'll likely get a better response..

Just my .02 FWIW
 
aadamson said:
Seriously, you all need to stay apples to apples, if you aren't trying Garmin Pilot with the GDL <whatever> then you aren't proving much. Just to prove that Foreflight shows the TFR's really means nothing to this issue. You need to determine if it's a datalink issue (e.g. GDL <whatever>), or a G3X issue. Using Garmin Pilot with it's BT connection to a 45R or similar should be the tell, if you get TFR's and you don't on the G3X, then you know where the issue is... But I would strongly suggest that you stop the comparison with Foreflight.... Besides, Garmin isn't likely to take much credibility with all the Foreflight comments... but if you can show that their entire ecosystem is munged, you'll likely get a better response..

Just my .02 FWIW
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If running FF and the gdl sends the data to FF and it works then that would for sure say it’s a g3x issue. I don’t use Garmin Pilot so don’t have access.
I would certainly think Garmin would not want a competitor out doing them when they could easily make sure something like this is working.

My dealing with Garmin has been hit or miss. But definitely find if enough people are having the same issue and letting them know they seem to fix the issue in an update.
 
I’m experiencing the same issues described by the OP. I have a Garmin GTX 345 transponder that is hardwired to a Garmin Aera 660, no TFR’s.


My IPhone with ForeFlight is blue tooth to the Garmin GTX 345, that combo provides TFR’s but it may be because my ForeFlight is updating over the cell network prior to and sometimes during my flight.

I’m considering a panel update and thinking about going with Garmin G3X. I wonder how the competition (Dynon, AFS, GRT) do in this category. Interesting thread.
 
My money is on this being an FAA transmission error and not a garmin problem. Interested to hear the testing results from walt and others
 
Chkaharyer99 said:
I’m considering a panel update and thinking about going with Garmin G3X. I wonder how the competition (Dynon, AFS, GRT) do in this category. Interesting thread.
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Okay, I run a GRT Hx EFIS for a display; Skyradar D2 dual frequency ADSB-in, which is hard wired (usb) to the Hx and connects via WiFi to an iPad running WingX. I usually check wx just before engine start with the iPad getting data over ground based wifi or cell. Pretty sure I’m always in contact with a ground station at least 10 minutes before I ever look at the panel.
Looking at TFRs, I’ve never noticed any discrepancy between iPad and Hx efis, nor have I noticed any missing (not shown although I knew there was one).
 
I fly with AFS stuff and gotta say they show up to these discussions without being asked and help troubleshoot. Phone calls and email helped.
 
TFRs are displayed by Garmin Pilot on my Android tablet while connected via bluetooth to my GDL-39.
TFRs are displayed by Garmin Pilot on my Android phone when connected to a cell phone network.
TFRs are NOT displayed on my G3X connected via bluetooth to my GDL-39.
 
I had a couple flights that had me close to the TFR near SMX last week, it was displayed on G3X and matched what I saw on my phone with FF. My phone is not connected to my G3X at all. I have a GDL-52R with an active Sirius sub, the info may have been coming from there vs the GTX-45.

I don't expect this to be conclusive, just a data point that I have not seen mentioned that could be helpful.

For the SMX trips I was skirting the edge so I was paying attention to the TFR but I was not thinking about different devices and paths in a way that I could test anything. I'll try and get up this weekend and pay a little closer attention.
 
It might be useful for people to update their posts to include their specific GDL or GTX, and if the RS232 connections are in place, and are active, or if the Bluetooth is the active FIS-B.

I wonder if there is a difference if the FIS-B connection to the G3X is Bluetooth, versus RS232.

G3X install shows RS232 connections to ""each"" GDU from GTX.

One thing that comes to mind is it is conceivable, that the GDL or GTX , does not present identical info on the Bluetooth and RS232. In other words, maybe the G3X isn't getting the whole picture from the GDL or GTX depending on the media used.
 
KMMUflyer said:
It might be useful for people to update their posts to include their specific GDL or GTX, and if the RS232 connections are in place, and are active, or if the Bluetooth is the active FIS-B.

I wonder if there is a difference if the FIS-B connection to the G3X is Bluetooth, versus RS232.

G3X install shows RS232 connections to ""each"" GDU from GTX.

One thing that comes to mind is it is conceivable, that the GDL or GTX , does not present identical info on the Bluetooth and RS232. In other words, maybe the G3X isn't getting the whole picture from the GDL or GTX depending on the media used.
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I don’t think that’s the case on the gdl because they run serial over Bluetooth. So, in order to not show the same data, they would need to have two serial streams under the covers.
 
Great Flying Weather in the MidAtlantic these past 6 days and more to come! Has anyone solved this "G3X and TFR's not showing" Mystery yet? I am really surprised/disappointed that G3EXPERTS have not joined this thread to help out or explain. I hope it is just a setting or configuration error, too many TFR's in this Wash DC area to have with a lack of confidence in Garmin.
 
So I did some testing yesterday as well as my return trip home today. I flew under the bravo airspace of San Francisco so the adsb is definitely working over there. I brought my iPad that has foreflight. I also brought along my stratus. My iPad has not been turned on or updated in the last three weeks. I made sure I left it off while at the house so it could not link up to my WiFi.
On my way over to the coast I checked my phone/foreflight and the TFR for the baseball game as well as the TFR for the fire in Calistoga were both showing up. This was using cell service.
I linked my iPad to my gdl50r via Bluetooth. Neither the g3x or my iPad running foreflight showed either TFR.
I then linked my iPad over to my stratus 2S and let it run for the rest of the trip. The result was the same. No TFR showed up.
I got home and turned on foreflight on my iPad and as soon as it linked to the WiFi then both TFRs showed up.

I made sure every setting I could find that has to do with adsb was turned on. TIS A and all on the g3x.

So for some reason TFR information is not coming through via ADSB???
 
torquen said:
So I did some testing yesterday as well as my return trip home today. I flew under the bravo airspace of San Francisco so the adsb is definitely working over there. I brought my iPad that has foreflight. I also brought along my stratus. My iPad has not been turned on or updated in the last three weeks. I made sure I left it off while at the house so it could not link up to my WiFi.
On my way over to the coast I checked my phone/foreflight and the TFR for the baseball game as well as the TFR for the fire in Calistoga were both showing up. This was using cell service.
I linked my iPad to my gdl50r via Bluetooth. Neither the g3x or my iPad running foreflight showed either TFR.
I then linked my iPad over to my stratus 2S and let it run for the rest of the trip. The result was the same. No TFR showed up.
I got home and turned on foreflight on my iPad and as soon as it linked to the WiFi then both TFRs showed up.

I made sure every setting I could find that has to do with adsb was turned on. TIS A and all on the g3x.

So for some reason TFR information is not coming through via ADSB???
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A great experiment setup there. Kind of what i was expecting. Guessing the fis-b server grabs data from a bunch of different sources to consolidate and transmit and the link to the tfr database has some errors or connectivity issues. I suspect the faa uses contractors for the data stuff and they probably are not providing good oversight. I properly coded system would be throwing errors and warnings in a case like this, but you don’t always get good code from the “lowest bidder.” We should figure the best way to let the faa know this is going on. I suspect they probably care and just unaware it is happening.
 
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lr172 said:
A great experiment setup there. Kind of what i was expecting. I suspect they use contractors for the data stuff and they probably are not providing good oversight. We should figure the best way to let the faa know this is going on. I suspect they probably care and just unaware it is happening.
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Oh. And btw. One of my friends that was in our group has a brand new carbon cut with full g3x system as well. I asked him if he could see the TFR’s and he could not. He only saw them on his phone using foreflight.
So it’s definitely a problem where it’s not coming into our systems via adsb. Also, he is running xm and gets weather through the xm.
 
I noticed that my G3X can link to garmin pilot using the Connext stuff, and according to this page:

www.garmin.com

Garmin Connext: Wireless Cockpit Connectivity | Garmin Blog

.
www.garmin.com www.garmin.com

Looks like it can transfer database updates and the g3x can send ads-b targets to the portable, but can it transfer TFR data from the phone to the g3x? If so that would be pretty ideal as there would be in theory multiple data sources (fis-b and cell) which provides some level of redundancy.
 
That means that the only method to get TFT on a G3X is fis-b and it appears that it’s not a reliable method….

mooneyspace.com

Missing ADS-B TFRs

Recently I have not been having TFRs show up in my Garmin equipment. I wonder if anyone else has experienced this. I have a GTX 345 providing ADS-B In and Out. It is connected to a G3X and a GTN 650Xi. I am getting other FIS-B products (NEXRAD, lightening, cloud tops, etc) depicted on the G3X and...
mooneyspace.com
 
akschu said:
That means that the only method to get TFT on a G3X is fis-b and it appears that it’s not a reliable method….
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I've seen a lot of unreliability in FIS-B the past ~6 months. Foreflight is frequently/always not showing airport weather through the Sentry in flight. I'm sure other data is likely to be missing as well. Did government contractors or data towers just stop being reliable recently?

As an aside, stadium TFRs are given by Foreflight using game schedules - they aren't real TFRs that would be disseminated through FIS-B. But I gather this discussion is more about the absence of official data.
 
I can say that, in over four years flying with dual G3X, that I have NEVER had a TFR show up on the panel.

It would be a nice add, almost a "must-have" expectation, but I have never had it on the panel and have always referred to ForeFlight on my iPad.
 
@g3xpert - fyi, not sure you are aware of this issue, seems to have existed for some time.... Had seen you referenced, in the above but figured I'd make it specific.
 
Everyone, please make sure you are keep this apples to apples. E.g. I also believe that sxm sends over tfrs. So if you have both (I do, 45r and 51r). Ya might want to turn one or the other off when verifying
 
Amadeus said:
I can say that, in over four years flying with dual G3X, that I have NEVER had a TFR show up on the panel.

It would be a nice add, almost a "must-have" expectation, but I have never had it on the panel and have always referred to ForeFlight on my iPad.
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. . . not only "must have," but an advertised expectation. Have you ever reported this to Garmin in the 4 years you reference?
aadamson said:
Everyone, please make sure you are keep this apples to apples.
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I'm not really sure what you mean by this repeated analogy since everyone reporting this issue is flying with Garmin devices for ADS-B in. Our references to Foreflight or Garmin Pilot are simply proving that the panel-mounted or remote Garmin devices are failing to display TFRs as they are supposed to. What I would like to see are clear photos that drive this point home so that somebody out there----@g3xpert or even the FAA-----can get this anomaly rectified in a timely manner. It being an obvious safety issue, one would think the urgency would speak for itself. Apparently it doesn't.
 
Scott Chastain said:
. . . not only "must have," but an advertised expectation. Have you ever reported this to Garmin in the 4 years you reference?

I'm not really sure what you mean by this repeated analogy since everyone reporting this issue is flying with Garmin devices for ADS-B in. Our references to Foreflight or Garmin Pilot are simply proving that the panel-mounted or remote Garmin devices are failing to display TFRs as they are supposed to. What I would like to see are clear photos that drive this point home so that somebody out there----@g3xpert or even the FAA-----can get this anomaly rectified in a timely manner. It being an obvious safety issue, one would think the urgency would speak for itself. Apparently it doesn't.
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That's the problem. Foreflight caches, if you have a 51r you may get them via sxm. If you are trying to prove that ads-b data isn't happening, you need to compare Garmin pilot to the g3x and an ads-b transponder only. To add any other variables just makes this much harder and not very scientific. At least in my mind you are trying to not only prove the problem, but also prove the source and exact configuration of the problem... Apples to apples and take out all the other variables.
 
Scott Chastain said:
. . . not only "must have," but an advertised expectation. Have you ever reported this to Garmin in the 4 years you reference?

I'm not really sure what you mean by this repeated analogy since everyone reporting this issue is flying with Garmin devices for ADS-B in. Our references to Foreflight or Garmin Pilot are simply proving that the panel-mounted or remote Garmin devices are failing to display TFRs as they are supposed to. What I would like to see are clear photos that drive this point home so that somebody out there----@g3xpert or even the FAA-----can get this anomaly rectified in a timely manner. It being an obvious safety issue, one would think the urgency would speak for itself. Apparently it doesn't.
Click to expand...
Are they? I have a dual touch, 45r, and 750xi. And I'm seeing all the tfrs.... Now and I've not been at the airplane since this thread started. Is that because I also have a 51r that is enabled and configured? I don't know yet, more have I tested this all with a BT only connection between GP and the 45r? Not yet.

Again, and still in line with my apples to apples comment....of which I know I'm not and why before this response I have held off responding with specifics (only did to make the point)
 

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