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Brake upgrade questions

R

RNB

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Background: Stock brake RV10, I see lots of O ring replacements in the logs. I had brake failure, now want to upgrade them. Some questions:

1. I watched a mechanic bleed the brakes, he made a special point to attach an overflow container with a plastic fitting. What size fitting is on top of the stock brake reservoir.
2. If I upgrade to the Matco brakes, is this the 600XT shown here? https://matcoals.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/W600XT.pdf
3. Will the stock reservoir work?
4. Do I need to worry about not properly loading the master cylinders? https://rv10.org/index.php?title=Matco_installation_recommendations

Any pointers from those of you that have done this? I can hire the work out later this year with my condition inspection but I will be soon changing the Orings and brake fluid to the higher temp stuff. It might just be easier to change the brakes out now.

Thanks
 
Walt said:
I have no direct experience with Grove on an RV10, however I have Grove on my own aircraft and have installed them on a number or RV's. They have a very high-quality product compared to my experience with Matco products.
Click to expand...

Are the grove brake pads larger?
 
RNB
I had the Cleveland brakes on my RV10 and upgraded to the Matco WHLW1600XLT-2 at least 7-8 years ago. The replacement was pretty straightforward. The retrofit on a flying 10 had you add a spacer to keep the alignment for the wheel pants. After going through adding the spacer to all the attach points I found they actually fit better without the spacers. I should have tried that first as it would have saved me a couple hours of work.

The master cylinder alignment on the rudder pedals it not unique to Matco. I realized the issue when I had to rebuild the mater cylinders (pilot side) as I developed a slight leak. After disassembly it was evident the rod was wearing because the master cylinder to rudder pedal attach point alignment wasn't correct. That was easily solved with a few special spacers I made.

I have the Grove RV10 nosewheel upgrade and also had Grove on my amphibious Highlander. They make great products but I really like the Matco brake upgrade on my 10. It does take a little patience replacing the brake pads the first time as they are "different" from a traditional caliper setup. Once you get the hang of it the process is straight forward.


Gary
 
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RNB said:
Are the grove brake pads larger?
Click to expand...
What is really important is the brake torque rating (determines deceleration capability) and kinetic energy rating (especially important for an RTO). I suggest you do the calculations for your plane and find a brake kit that meets or exceeds your requirements.
 
Thanks. My nose wheel is Beringer.
I appreciate the vote of confidence on the Matco.
 
Okay, further questions:
1. I am pretty sure I am going to get the Matco wheel and brake set up this week. My assumption is that Oring replacement with high temp Viton no longer needed or supported by anything published, certainly no data that tells me which Viton O rings to install. Do people stick to just the stock O rings in these brakes? What about the brake fluid. do you use some higher temp stuff still or stick with 5606?
2. I saw my mechanic lubricate either the cylinder or the Oring from a small foil back, looked like vaseline. I can see some automotive products with ease, but there are a lot of options for brake lubrication. The Matco info I've read makes no mention of this in the 18 page stuff I found.

Additionally, I am considering buying the following for long term service:
Bead breaker
Brake riveting tool
Wheel grease and the tool to push it in fittings
Brake bleeder kit with plastic fitting for the reservoir.
I dont expect to need paying too much attention to the above purchases but would listen to overnight wisdom.

I dont see a good specific section in my Crane book, willing to. purchase a good book on this stuff.

Thank you.
 
Dad's RV-10 said:
From Van's SERVICE LETTER 00047 R1:

"For Matco installations, order U-00025 - O-ring Size: -222 1.484 in ID"

McMaster-Carr Chemical-Resistant Viton® Fluoroelastomer O-Ring - 9464K64
Click to expand...
Sort of but that seems to imply rv12.
I’ve seen some discussion that the matco rv10 are a -218

Viton O-Rings for 6" Matco Wheels/Brake Calipers

Hello, I'm getting ready to change my 5" Grove wheels/brakes to Matco 6". Does anyone know the proper Viton O-Ring size for Service Letter SL-00047? Matco lists the stock Buna O-Ring as MSC 2-218. Van's lists their U-00015-1 Viton O-Ring and also reference a -218 trailing number (size code)...
vansairforce.net

Do most folks with matco dual caliper brakes still use viton equivalents?
 
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RNB said:
Okay, further questions:
1. I am pretty sure I am going to get the Matco wheel and brake set up this week. My assumption is that Oring replacement with high temp Viton no longer needed or supported by anything published, certainly no data that tells me which Viton O rings to install. Do people stick to just the stock O rings in these brakes? What about the brake fluid. do you use some higher temp stuff still or stick with 5606?
2. I saw my mechanic lubricate either the cylinder or the Oring from a small foil back, looked like vaseline. I can see some automotive products with ease, but there are a lot of options for brake lubrication. The Matco info I've read makes no mention of this in the 18 page stuff I found.

Additionally, I am considering buying the following for long term service:
Bead breaker
Brake riveting tool
Wheel grease and the tool to push it in fittings
Brake bleeder kit with plastic fitting for the reservoir.
I dont expect to need paying too much attention to the above purchases but would listen to overnight wisdom.

I dont see a good specific section in my Crane book, willing to. purchase a good book on this stuff.

Thank you.
Click to expand...
My suggestion: Replace the o-rings with viton. Use Royco 782 fluid for its higher flash point. Now you've really raised the bar on the risk of a) blowing out an o-ring due to heat and b) Having a fire as a result.

The brake rivet tool is handy. Never needed a bead breaker. A wheel bearing greaser is useful.

You can make a brake bleeding kit for $20 - you need a few feet of hose, an old school oil can, a 1/8" NPT to barbed hose fitting and a soda (or water) bottle. The oil can and a couple feet of hose are the filler and the rest is the overflow from your reservoir. Here's a suitable oil can: https://www.amazon.com/XinTan-Tiger...-3-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1
 
RNB said:
Are the grove brake pads larger?
Click to expand...
Don't know on a RV-10 wheel, but on the wheel options for my current Lancairs the Grove brakes are slightly larger than the Matco offering. The other advantage of the Grove (in the case of wheels on my Lancairs) is the Grove wheels / brake rotors have less runout; that means smoother braking without the caliper clicking on each revolution as it's pushed out. Of course you would have to research the options for your RV-10. If you've already got Matco wheels / brakes, I would just stick with it. Someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but I don't believe you can mix and match Grove and Matco wheels and brake calipers / discs.
 
RNB said:
Okay, further questions:
1. I am pretty sure I am going to get the Matco wheel and brake set up this week. My assumption is that Oring replacement with high temp Viton no longer needed or supported by anything published, certainly no data that tells me which Viton O rings to install. Do people stick to just the stock O rings in these brakes? What about the brake fluid. do you use some higher temp stuff still or stick with 5606?
2. I saw my mechanic lubricate either the cylinder or the Oring from a small foil back, looked like vaseline. I can see some automotive products with ease, but there are a lot of options for brake lubrication. The Matco info I've read makes no mention of this in the 18 page stuff I found.

Additionally, I am considering buying the following for long term service:
Bead breaker
Brake riveting tool
Wheel grease and the tool to push it in fittings
Brake bleeder kit with plastic fitting for the reservoir.
I dont expect to need paying too much attention to the above purchases but would listen to overnight wisdom.

I dont see a good specific section in my Crane book, willing to. purchase a good book on this stuff.

Thank you.
Click to expand...
No vasoline in the brake system please. Just lubricate the piston oring and bore with brake fluid before assembly. I recommend synthetic atf over 5606. Much higher flashpoint and better seal conditioning additives.
 
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