Mosaic Signed and Announced

[Sam Buchanan]

https://pages.eaa.org/index.php/ema...Ovk73MbTwuupjSfqDkK7krCwkOSn2QbDYZ3SYol0EFFzg

"For current sport pilots, that means you have an expanded choice of existing and new aircraft to fly and more privileges you can obtain. For private pilots, you can fly many existing airplanes instantly with a drivers license medical. If you’ve dreamed of becoming a pilot, doing so just became infinitely easier."

 

[MacCool]

https://pages.eaa.org/index.php/ema...Ovk73MbTwuupjSfqDkK7krCwkOSn2QbDYZ3SYol0EFFzg

"For current sport pilots, that means you have an expanded choice of existing and new aircraft to fly and more privileges you can obtain. For private pilots, you can fly many existing airplanes instantly with a drivers license medical. If you’ve dreamed of becoming a pilot, doing so just became infinitely easier."

No specs, just fluff.

 

[flybrianfly]

What I'm eagerly awaiting to learn is how the repairman certification will work with the expanded S-LSA and E-LSA.

 

[aadamson]

News

News

www.eaa.org

https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/MOSAIC_Final_Rule_Issuance.pdf

 

[Sam Buchanan]

No specs, just fluff.

Well......it's only been released for an hour............................

 

[Phyrcooler]

In the press conference it was stated 61 kts dirty stall speed. That was probably the number 1 discussed issue during the proposal review.

 

[PhatRV]

This is from the FAA document referenced in the link above

61kts VS0

 

[aadamson]

There are two numbers and they aren’t the same. 61 and 58

 

[Rick_A]

I just read on the EAA website: No weight limit, max speed of 250 kts, max of 4 seats. It also said that sport pilots with proper endorsement can fly CS props and retractable gear.

So it seems to me all Vans models will qualify. There was no mention of IFR flight but night flight will be allowed.

 

[Ben Ellis]

Here's a 59kts CAS Vs1 reference for the limit that sport pilots may operate. Not sure how to reconcile that with the 61kts reference:

 

[Phyrcooler]

This is from the FAA document referenced in the link above

61kts VS0

View attachment 93133

And so is this… from pg 208… discrepancies??

 

[skelrad]

Dumb it down for me - with MOSAIC, it seems to now open up most flying that a PPL allows. Realistically, what am I missing if I get trained as a sport pilot vs private? I am just getting ready to get back into training after a pause a number of years ago, gearing up for finishing my 9A build in the next year or two. If my purpose is to fly personal cross country, what part of PPL training gets hacked off for sport pilot?

 

[Dugaru]

So do I get to fly an early model TBM 700 (Vso 61 knots) on a driver’s license medical or not?!? With the 10,000-foot altitude limit, the fuel burn is going to be a beast, of course.

 

[AirShowFan]

Here's a 59kts CAS Vs1 reference for the limit that sport pilots may operate. Not sure how to reconcile that with the 61kts reference:

If I'm reading this right, this de-couples the definitions of "Sport Pilot" and "Light Sport Airplane" in an interesting way.

• A Sport Pilot can only fly airplanes that stall at 59 knots or slower (clean).
  
  
• If you want to certify an airplane as an S-LSA, it can have a stall speed as fast as 61 knots (dirty).

So: It is possible that there would be airplanes that will be certified as S-LSA, but that Sport Pilots would not be allowed to fly.

A real example: I'm pretty sure the RV-10 stalls faster than 59 knots clean but slower than 61 knots dirty. This means it could be certified as an S-LSA but could not be flown by a Sport Pilot.

... I think. Is that right?

 

[Brantel]

Here's a 59kts CAS Vs1 reference for the limit that sport pilots may operate. Not sure how to reconcile that with the 61kts reference:

View attachment 93137

Vso vs Vs1 and one reference is for the sport pilot and the other is for the airplane.

 

[j4cbo]

Here's a 59kts CAS Vs1 reference for the limit that sport pilots may operate. Not sure how to reconcile that with the 61kts reference:

It's 59 knots clean to determine whether a sport pilot can legally fly the airplane.

It's 61 knots dirty if you're designing an airplane that you want to sell with an E-LSA/S-LSA airworthiness certificate.

 

[skirting_virga]

If my purpose is to fly personal cross country, what part of PPL training gets hacked off for sport pilot?

For practical purposes the required training isn't much less.

Need endorsements for controlled airspace B/C/D. No night, always <10k MSL or <2000 AGL, whichever is higher. Day VFR - can't get an instrument rating. Can't fly VFR-over-the-top, have to see the ground. Can't fly in furtherance of a business.

 

[dmattmul]

Check out the medical certificate needed, seems fair.

 

[BobTurner]

Anyone else notice that light sport mechanics will now be authorized to conduct EAB condition inspections?

 

[skirting_virga]

Anyone else notice that light sport mechanics will now be authorized to conduct EAB condition inspections?

I didn't see that. What's the barrier to being a light sport mechanic?

 

[jss165]

So if I'm reading this right i can fly a RV-14A on the sport pilot license with an endorsement for CS if it has one?

 

[BobTurner]

I didn't see that. What's the barrier to being a light sport mechanic?

You have to take a class, I forget how many hours.

 

[AeroEngineer]

I didn't see that. What's the barrier to being a light sport mechanic?

A two-week course:

15 Day Light Sport Repairman Maintenance Course | Rainbow Aviation

rainbowaviation.com

 

[dmattmul]

So if I'm reading this right i can fly a RV-14A on the sport pilot license with an endorsement for CS if it has one?

Vans rates the 14 at 62 knots for Vs1. If yours is 59 knots or less seems it would qualify.

 

[AirShowFan]

Vans rates the 14 at 62 knots for Vs1. If yours is 59 knots or less seems it would qualify.

Indeed. Like I wrote in the other thread,

If a builder says that their RV-10 stalls at 59 knots clean at max gross (Maybe they added VGs and seaplane-style drooped wingtips? Or the "zero degrees" flap position isn't really zero degrees, and neither are the ailerons...) then it could be flown by a Sport Pilot. Right?

 

[Bill_H]

So I built an ELSA RV12. I went to the course and got an LSA Repairman's certificate - a 16 hour weekend course. That entitled me to sign off the annual condition inspection on my RV12 ( or any other RV12 that I own). In reading the document, I can now ALSO sign off on the annual condition inspection of any EAB-registered aircraft that I own! This is great, since I also co-own an RV9A that I did not build. Note that applies only to EAB registered, and not aircraft with standard airworthiness certificates that other aspects of MOSAIC now apply to. This is great!

 

[N40ES]

I have not read anything that changes the classification of the aircraft, only the change applies to the classification (RATINGS) of the Pilot. In other what he/she is allowed to operate. Did I miss something in the text?

 

[BobTurner]

So if I'm reading this right i can fly a RV-14A on the sport pilot license with an endorsement for CS if it has one?

Not sure. Is Vs1 (no flaps) stall 59 kcas or less? Usually faa specifies these thibgs at gross weight.

 

[aadamson]

Not sure. Is Vs1 (no flaps) stall 59 kcas or less? Usually faa specifies these thibgs at gross weight.

Here are the 14 published vans numbers (ignoring what phase 1 determined) - https://www.vansaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/RV-14-V-speeds-Web-Post-Rev-3.pdf

 

[aadamson]

Here are the 14 published vans numbers (ignoring what phase 1 determined) - https://www.vansaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/RV-14-V-speeds-Web-Post-Rev-3.pdf

Wonder if a bunch of 14s will go back into phase 1, renvalidate vs1, and come out with 59 ... Lol

 

[hawker]

If i read it, need a medical or basic med to fly at night and no ifr. Just great

 

[AirShowFan]

Wonder if a bunch of 14s will go back into phase 1, renvalidate vs1, and come with with 61 ... Lol

Ha!

Except... A good point was made in the other thread:

The text of the new 61.316 says "If you hold a sport pilot certificate, you may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that, since its original certification, meets the following requirements"... (emphasis mine). That means that, just like the current sport rules, you can't modify a noncompliant aircraft back into something that a sport pilot can fly.

 

[dmattmul]

Wonder if a bunch of 14s will go back into phase 1, renvalidate vs1, and come with with 61 ... Lol

I think you need 59, more LOL.

 

[dmattmul]

Here are the 14 published vans numbers (ignoring what phase 1 determined) - https://www.vansaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/RV-14-V-speeds-Web-Post-Rev-3.pdf

Seems a 7 and 8 will qualify??

 

[Bill_H]

A two-week course:

15 Day Light Sport Repairman Maintenance Course | Rainbow Aviation

rainbowaviation.com

I think you only have to have the light sport REPAIRMAN rating, not the MECHANIC rating. REPAIRMAN is a 16 hour weekend course. ELSA RV12 builders typically get this so we can sign off on our own condition inspection. That was needed because, unlike EAB, the RV12 ELSA certification did not prohibit getting unlimited, even paid, assistance in the build.

 

[Brantel]

All this confusion over 2 knots?

There are gonna be LSA aircraft that a sport pilot cannot fly?

How did something that should be so simple get so convoluted?

What a ridiculous and unnecessary mess!

 

[BobTurner]

Here are the 14 published vans numbers (ignoring what phase 1 determined) - https://www.vansaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/RV-14-V-speeds-Web-Post-Rev-3.pdf

Be careful. The proposal states CAS, the download IAS. At low speeds CAS is typically higher, sometimes by a lot, than IAS. Side story: local flying club operates a 1974 182. Back then the FARs required airspeed indicator markings (e.g., bottom of white arc = full flap gross weight stall speed) be in CAS. Which led to the strange POH recommendation that short field takeoffs be conducted below stall speed! Of course, the latter were in CAS, while takeoff speed was IAS.

 

[AeroEngineer]

I think you only have to have the light sport REPAIRMAN rating, not the MECHANIC rating.

REPAIRMAN is a 16 hour weekend course. ELSA RV12 builders typically get this so we can sign off on our own condition inspection. That was needed because, unlike EAB, the RV12 ELSA certification did not prohibit getting unlimited, even paid, assistance in the build.

Whoops! Yes, indeed, you are correct. I had them confused.

 

[aadamson]

Van’s says the RV-14 clean stall speed is 61 KCAS, and 65 KCAS for the RV-10, in previous comments to the proposed MOSAIC NPRM:

Van's Aircraft Comments on MOSAIC NPRM FAA-2023-1377 - Van's Aircraft Total Performance RV Kit Planes

The following comments were submitted to the FAA regarding their Notice of Proposed Rulemaking on MOSAIC. The letter was prepared by Rian Johnson, Chief Engineer at Van’s Aircraft and Chairman of the ASTM F37 committee, which governs light-sport aircraft standards. January 22, 2024 Docket...

www.vansaircraft.com

Not what their datasheet says. (But as was pointed out. None of those numbers are ias, they are cas. https://www.vansaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/RV-14-V-speeds-Web-Post-Rev-3.pdf

 

[aadamson]

What was the consensus on the mosaic change for Lisa repairman certs?

That it expands to include e-ab, but that type applies? E.g if you had one for rv-12, you couldn’t do rv-7 conditionals?

 

[N8DAV8R]

What was the consensus on the mosaic change for Lisa repairman certs?

That it expands to include e-ab, but that type applies? E.g if you had one for rv-12, you couldn’t do rv-7 conditionals?

Category and class that the repairmen cert applies to. Within the category, Inspection rating applies to any EAB you own and Maintenance to any EAB.

 

[aadamson]

Category and class that the repairmen cert applies to. Within the category, Inspection rating applies to any EAB you own and Maintenance to any EAB.

So translate that. If i own an eab rv14 and i go take the 2 day LSA Maint course (not the 2wk Maint course), can i do my own conditionals? Or does the course have to be specific to the rv? E.g. don’t know of anyone who offers that as rvs prior to today aren’t lsa.

Specifically the rainbow offered courses. - https://rainbowaviation.com/the-lsa-repairman-maintenance-or-inspection-rating/

 

[flybrianfly]

So translate that. If i own an eab rv14 and i go take the 2 day LSA Maint course (not the 2wk Maint course), can i do my own conditionals? Or does the course have to be specific to the rv? E.g. don’t know of anyone who offers that as rvs prior to today aren’t lsa.

Specifically the rainbow offered courses. - https://rainbowaviation.com/the-lsa-repairman-maintenance-or-inspection-rating/

My read on it is that you would just need to take the Rainbow 2 day course for aircraft and then could do condition inspections on an EAB that you own.

 

[aadamson]

My read on it is that you would just need to take the Rainbow 2 day course for aircraft and then could do condition inspections on an EAB that you own.

If that’s the case… that’s huge!

 

[N8DAV8R]

So translate that. If i own an eab rv14 and i go take the 2 day LSA Maint course (not the 2wk Maint course), can i do my own conditionals? Or does the course have to be specific to the rv? E.g. don’t know of anyone who offers that as rvs prior to today aren’t lsa.

Specifically the rainbow offered courses. - https://rainbowaviation.com/the-lsa-repairman-maintenance-or-inspection-rating/

The 2 day Inspection course, for Airplanes, for the EAB that you own assuming it meets the LS criteria which seems to be the case for the RV-14.

Here is the summary and rationale for this change with the most plain explanation I could find. This whole section of the rule (mid 400s) is worth a read. Lots of of meat on the bone. The page referenced is a good place to start. My eyes feel like they are bleeding this afternoon.

 

[N8DAV8R]

If that’s the case… that’s huge!

It is. When you take the course, take a moment to thank Brian and Carol for their video and comments on this issue. This was kind of a sleeper issue that they were pushing that was otherwise pretty quiet.

 

[flybrianfly]

The 2 day Inspection course, for Airplanes, for the EAB that you own assuming it meets the LS criteria which seems to be the case for the RV-14.

Here is the summary and rationale for this change with the most plain explanation I could find. This whole section of the rule (mid 400s) is worth a read. Lots of of meat on the bone. The page referenced is a good place to start. My eyes feel like they are bleeding this afternoon.View attachment 93191

Does it require the EAB to meet the light sport limitations? I read it that any EAB of the same category and class would be covered.

 

[BobTurner]

Does it require the EAB to meet the light sport limitations? I read it that any EAB of the same category and class would be covered.

No. There are a few exceptions (turbine powered, etc) but most EAB will be able to have their condition inspection done by a light sport repairman. This is a huge change for EAB buyers not builders, one I didn’t know was even under consideration.

 

[N8DAV8R]

Does it require the EAB to meet the light sport limitations? I read it that any EAB of the same category and class would be covered.

I think you are correct in that I don't recall seeing anything explicitly stating the requirement for an EAB to meet the limitations. When reading from the mid 300s holistically, it gets really geeky and hard to follow with all the terminology and category and class changes. To me, the intent seemed to be for this expansion to apply to EABs that meet the limitations, that it's not explicit, and that the FAA always has the right to issue clarifications. What put me on that line of thinking is that somewhere in there was a statement that the FAA supported this change because *most* EABs meet the limitations.

I don't think they want to pick a fight over a few knots here and there with EAB owners doing conditionals under an LSRM. I think they will leave it poorly defined to the benefit of owners, which is the spirit of MOSAIC. If a bunch of super hot rod EAB owners start abusing this I would expect a clarification to come along.

 

[flybrianfly]

No. There are a few exceptions (turbine powered, etc) but most EAB will be able to have their condition inspection done by a light sport repairman. This is a huge change for EAB buyers not builders, one I didn’t know was even under consideration.

As someone building, with a long way to go, this would have changed my build vs buy decision. Oh well, can’t sell now at a loss. Maybe I’ll get an EAB so I have something to fly while I keep building.