Dismantling a project

[LettersFromFlyoverCountry]

Though it was almost ready for the DAR until I ran into the problem with the forward fuel line in the RV-12iS, detailed elsewhere, and with Van's acknowledgement that this line cannot be replaced, I'm 90 % sure that the solution is to dismantle the project.

It would take a couple of years of work to undo the work done so far to make working in the tunnel possible and then 2 or more to put it back together. I'm 71 and I don't want to leave a headache for my wife to deal with, potentially exposing the estate to liability

The problem is it's a registered, though not airworthy, aircraft and I don't want any liability

Seems the best solution is to offer it to a salvage yard but how does that work to ensure there's nothing in the transfer that maintains any liability?

 

[jcarne]

Bob, call in some help, people are willing on your other thread (if I lived closer I would be there today). I know you have dealt with worse, time to engage perseverance mode! I too know what it's like to have a MAJOR setback at the end of a project, you got this!

 

[AZSteve053]

Bob, Please let us know specifically what line can not be replaced, and why if you know that too - I am into puzzles and difficult projects... I have the RV12S drawing and would like to help figure a way around your speed bump so that you can enjoy the fruits of your labors.

 

[YellowJacket RV9]

I can only imagine the frustration, and the desire to walk away. However, you have nothing to lose by crowd-sourcing this. Many of us are not -12 builders so cannot visualize the entire problem. Maybe you could post a video with more detail. This may require a one-off tool that could allow something like a laparoscopic surgery approach. Like an open end wrench end on a long arm with an actuator mechanism. I'm sure there are other ideas as well. There are some very smart people here who love a challenge.

 

[MJarreau]

Bob,

I've been a fan of your's through this site for many years now. I recall when you had help toward the end of your first build.

I can't encourage you strongly enough to persevere. Don't give up! You've been through worse. Take andvantage of the kind gestures extended your way!

I hope to hear of your first flight!

Mike

 

[rockyfatcat]

I can’t wrap my mind around a fuel line that cannot be replaced. It is an experimental aircraft. There must be a way to MacGyver a fuel line from the tanks to the engine in a safe manner using certified aircraft parts and components.

Come on! It’s not a certified aircraft, it is experimental. There are plans and a design. Doesn’t mean that it can’t be done safely in another way

 

[Brantel]

I can’t wrap my mind around a fuel line that cannot be replaced. It is an experimental aircraft. There must be a way to MacGyver a fuel line from the tanks to the engine in a safe manner using certified aircraft parts and components.

Come on! It’s not a certified aircraft, it is experimental. There are plans and a design. Doesn’t mean that it can’t be done safely in another way

I assume Bob is building as a E-LSA not a E-AB aircraft. That means he can't change the design or the components.

 

[TS Flightlines]

I assume Bob is building as a E-LSA not a E-AB aircraft. That means he can't change the design or the components.

Bob----before resulting to drastic measures like dismantling the plane for salvage, might I add my 'second' to the motion of slowing down and look at this another way. This is one of those areas where an issue just wasnt foreseen. Now---yes you can put a hose in there, but if you dont have the working area, you might make the situation worse. Post all the pics you can of the area, and just for my crazy mind, the inderneath of the plane around that area..

 

[wirejock]

Bob, you have so much support here. I'm sure we ca come up with a solution.

 

[smoothy58]

Bob-
I have to agree with everyone on taking a pause and looking at other options. The collective experience pool here can figure out a workaround. Hang in there!!

 

[[email protected]]

How about cutting an access panel? That Is just normal course sometimes on getting to things to repair.

 

[N8DAV8R]

I assume Bob is building as a E-LSA not a E-AB aircraft. That means he can't change the design or the components.

I have had the same thing in mind the whole time that Bob has been troubleshooting this. Depending on the builder's perspective on things, stepping back to E-AB may be a disappointment but would seem better than sending it to Salvage.

This is where my advice may differ slightly from some of the other encouragement in the thread. Just walk away for a week or two. It's been a long and frustrating grind. Take a break and go do something else for a little bit. Sometimes that's the best way to find the heart to continue.

 

[LettersFromFlyoverCountry]

One problem is the project is already registered so I don't believe going EAB is an option, which, as noted, significantly limits options pretty much to disassembly and lots of drilling out of rivets etc

Aside from the time it would take -removing engine, avionics, wiring, throttle quadrants, rudder controls, floors, and cables, there's the real possibility of damage in that process

It's true I'm frustrated, but I'm also clear minded in the lack of integrity in that fuel line and the idea of putting grandkids in a plane of questionable integrity is a non starter.

That the project is already technically sort of an airplane brings a boatload of liability on a transfer without a salvage title.

 

[AZSteve053]

One problem is the project is already registered so I don't believe going EAB is an option, which, as noted, significantly limits options pretty much to disassembly and lots of drilling out of rivets etc

I'm NOT a DAR so check on this - I believe that migrating from E-LSA to EAB is very easy but likely a one-way trip, going from EAB to E-LSA is near impossible.

 

[Sam Buchanan]

I'm NOT a DAR so check on this - I believe that migrating from E-LSA to EAB is very easy but likely a one-way trip, going from EAB to E-LSA is near impossible.

I'm not a DAR either but I believe this is correct. Until the aircraft is presented for inspection it can be built any way desired, it is only E-LSA after it has been presented to the DAR as E-LSA and inspected as such. Otherwise it receives an E-AB inspection/certificate.

 

[AZSteve053]

In the certified world - we use 337's & field approvals & STC's to make major repairs or configuration changes, the FAA or a DER can "approve" data for the change or repair so it can be "returned to service". For an E-LSA - I believe you can/should detail the problem (leaking fuel line), the mitigating issue (massive disassembly to replace the line) and propose an alternate repair option detailing the proposed technique (replacement fuel line, or section of line possibly constructed of acceptable aerospace standard materials) to the "Manufacture" (VAN's) requesting this configuration change be "approved" or for them to recommend a different repair method acceptable to them.
Bob - When you say Van's said it can't be replaced: Does that mean it's physically impossible to replace? or does it mean they will not address any other acceptable repair mitigation? I'm not sure how you presented this query to Van's however it does not make any sense that you should have to essentially do a very significant disassemble / reassembly with possible complications to make a repair that could be made safely while maintaining reliability by other means. If Van's says we will not approve any other method of replacement/repair - then maybe it's time to look into using a Designated Engineering Representative to engineer around the leaky line and approve data for return to service.
I'm no longer a DER and unsure of the exact process in the E-LSA world... but am sharing a methodology that you could investigate.

 

[Tony Kirk]

I'm certain that both fuel lines (F-12127B & F-12127C) in the center forward tunnel can be made "in place", even with all of the other systems installed. Some things will need to be disassembled or disconnected, but it can be done without any "surgical" modification to the airframe. I know because I've done it!

The fuel line will have to be bent to final shape in place after both of the flares have been made and it is a VERY difficult area to work in, but it can be done.



Did you ever wonder why your tubing cutter has the grooves in the rollers? Watch this short video Tubing Flare Removal. Removing a bad flare can save you a lot of backtracking!



Below are photos from an RV-12iS that I just finish building for someone. There where at least a half a dozen leaking fittings, and I had to re-flare a couple of the fuel lines.

Yes, I had to remove the rudder pedals and the heater cables, and there was a lot of cussing going on, but with a little blood, sweat and tears I was able to get leak-free fittings.





It would be a 3+ hour flight for me to come out there and fix this for Bob, and I'm willing to do that if someone else closer isn't able to help him solve this little problem.

There is no need to cut any access holes or go E-AB! Stick to the Plans and keep it an E-LSA!

Let me know if I can help out.

 

[rocketman1988]

This is the RV community.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

I don't want any liability

Are you still driving, at 71?

There is liability in walking around in life. But if you choose not to fix the problem, and sell the kit, it wouldn't even be you who gets the AWC, further removing you from any supposed liability.

And as in previous discussions, has anyone ever *directly* known of a case where the builder of an RV, after having sold it, was sued or held liable for a subsequent owner's accident? (DIRECTLY known, not "I heard about it", "my friend's cousin said his buddy...", etc. Trustworthy news sources also count ).

 

[Mel]

In the certified world - we use 337's & field approvals & STC's to make major repairs or configuration changes, the FAA or a DER can "approve" data for the change or repair so it can be "returned to service". For an E-LSA - I believe you can/should detail the problem (leaking fuel line), the mitigating issue (massive disassembly to replace the line) and propose an alternate repair option detailing the proposed technique (replacement fuel line, or section of line possibly constructed of acceptable aerospace standard materials) to the "Manufacture" (VAN's) requesting this configuration change be "approved" or for them to recommend a different repair method acceptable to them.

In some ways Light-Sport Aircraft are MORE restricted than "Certified" aircraft. An E-LSA, when presented for certification, must be built exactly per the plans with all parts provided by the kit manufacturer. Any changes must be approved in writing by the kit manufacturer.

If Bob wants to change over to E-AB, the registration will have to be "re-done" showing himself as the builder and must be able to show compliance with 21.191(g) proving a 51% build. It CAN be done this way.

 

[Sam Buchanan]

Are you still driving, at 71?

There is liability in walking around in life. But if you choose not to fix the problem, and sell the kit, it wouldn't even be you who gets the AWC, further removing you from any supposed liability.

And as in previous discussions, has anyone ever *directly* known of a case where the builder of an RV, after having sold it, was sued or held liable for a subsequent owner's accident? (DIRECTLY known, not "I heard about it", "my friend's cousin said his buddy...", etc. Trustworthy news sources also count ).

Suggestion from a moderator:

Let's not derail this thread into a discussion on experimental liability. That topic has been beat to death over the years and will offer absolutely nothing to Bob's efforts to find a solution to his build problem. Cooperation please or posts will be subject to moderation. Thank you.

 

[LettersFromFlyoverCountry]

I'm certain that both fuel lines (F-12127B & F-12127C) in the center forward tunnel can be made "in place", even with all of the other systems installed. Some things will need to be disassembled or disconnected, but it can be done without any "surgical" modification to the airframe. I know because I've done it!

The fuel line will have to be bent to final shape in place after both of the flares have been made and it is a VERY difficult area to work in, but it can be done.

View attachment 90431

Did you ever wonder why your tubing cutter has the grooves in the rollers? Watch this short video Tubing Flare Removal. Removing a bad flare can save you a lot of backtracking!

View attachment 90435

Below are photos from an RV-12iS that I just finish building for someone. There where at least a half a dozen leaking fittings, and I had to re-flare a couple of the fuel lines.

Yes, I had to remove the rudder pedals and the heater cables, and there was a lot of cussing going on, but with a little blood, sweat and tears I was able to get leak-free fittings.

View attachment 90432

View attachment 90433

It would be a 3+ hour flight for me to come out there and fix this for Bob, and I'm willing to do that if someone else closer isn't able to help him solve this little problem.

There is no need to cut any access holes or go E-AB! Stick to the Plans and keep it an E-LSA!

Let me know if I can help out.

I'll try to be in touch tomorrow, Tony

 

[RV7A Flyer]

Suggestion from a moderator:

Let's not derail this thread into a discussion on experimental liability. That topic has been beat to death over the years and will offer absolutely nothing to Bob's efforts to find a solution to his build problem. Cooperation please or posts will be subject to moderation. Thank you.

Fair enough...so the only question on the table is this, right?

the best solution is to offer it to a salvage yard but how does that work to ensure there's nothing in the transfer that maintains any liability?

 

[Sam Buchanan]

Fair enough...so the only question on the table is this, right?

If you read Bob's posts in the two threads he started on his build problem you will see he has pivoted to finding a solution to the fuel leaks. He has been offered assistance from experienced builders and is taking those offers under consideration.

 

[David Paule]

Just wanted to offer sympathy to Bob for this issue.

Good luck with a fix if one comes along -- I hope it does -- and with dealing with it if not.

Dave

 

[Scott Chastain]

A Cry in the Wilderness​

When comes of lasting labors counted long
Enough to equal age in seconds split,
And drizzled drops of broken blood to wrong
The right we have to choose a chance to quit,
There gallops forth a Legion to uplift
The spirit broken down, discouraged raw,
With countenance and courage gone adrift
Like funnel clouds do spin a span of straw,
And friendly rushes in the helping hand
To rescue from the isolating streak
The Vision of a Promise in our plans
That greaten us the goal to make us meek;
How quickly cower faltering and fear
Before a brother's plea to persevere!

----for Bob