Traffic alert during formation flying

[JoopSJ]

A friend of mine is flying my aircraft since recently.
Strangely he enjoys flying in close proximity of other aircrafts....
I believe they call that Flying Formation.

Now my question is:
Can anyone tell me (him) how to suppress the traffic alerts?
The setup is G3X with traffic info from GDL-50
Thanks

 

[Snowflake]

Turn off the GDL50 and let lead deal with traffic.

 

[mburch]

I wouldn't start by turning off my ADS-B receiver.

Instead, I would use the Inhibit option on the Traffic page.

 

[JoopSJ]

I wouldn't start by turning off my ADS-B receiver.

Instead, I would use the Inhibit option on the Traffic page.

Is that trough the configuration mode or can it be accessed directly on the G3X menu on the PFD. ?

 

[mburch]

Is that trough the configuration mode or can it be accessed directly on the G3X menu on the PFD. ?

The Traffic page has options to affect the display and alerting behavior of traffic. This is described in section 7.3 of the current G3X Touch pilot's guide (revision Z).

 

[jclark]

In a briefed formation flight, it is typically the FLIGHT LEAD whose transponder is on with a code. All others are set to standby or off as long as they are in the flight. ATC (and other planes) should see this as one BIG AIRPLANE.

I recently had a unique case where, with ATC coordination, we had the wingman have the transponder that was on and the lead be off.

In any case, one transponder on for a "flight" is the expectation.

 

[oaklandaviator]

Traffic page of the G3X has a disable prompt.

 

[jclark]

In a briefed formation flight, it is typically the FLIGHT LEAD whose transponder is on with a code. All others are set to standby or off as long as they are in the flight. ATC (and other planes) should see this as one BIG AIRPLANE.

I recently had a unique case where, with ATC coordination, we had the wingman have the transponder that was on and the lead be off.

In any case, one transponder on for a "flight" is the expectation.

In reviewing this thread, I realize now that there were two DIFFERENT things being discussed.

1. How to not be getting the "traffic" distractions while flying as a wingman. As several mentioned, it appears that this is easily done using the disable prompt in the G3X.
2. Not CREATING traffic alerts when you are not the Flight Lead. In this case, each WINGMAN's transponder is set to Standby - "SQUAWK STANDBY"(some turn it off).

As I recall, Lead would be using 1203 for VFR conditions without a specific ATC code (current FFI Leads, correct me if I am wrong).

Finally, remember that if you are not talking to ATC and they see two (or more) "transponders" getting really close to each other, you at at minimum, become a major distraction that they have to worry about. Be courteous (and legal) out there!

 

[Full Throttle]

TRANSPONDER AND ADS-B POLICY/PROCEDURES• FAA Policy Guidance for Transponder and ADS-B operation for formation flights is as follows:• AIM Chapter 4, Section 1, paragraph 4-1-20g.3 states:When participating in a VFR formation flight that is not receiving ATC services, only the lead aircraft should operate theirtransponder and ADS-B Out. All other aircraft should disable transponder and ADS-B transmissions once established within theformation. NOTE – If the formation flight is receiving ATC services, pilots can expect ATC to direct all non-lead aircraft to STOPSQUAWK, and should not do so until instructed.3• FAA Advisory Circular 90-114B, ADS-B Operations, dated 12-30-2019 states, in paragraph 4.3.1.3:Formation Operations. ATC uses established transponder and ADS-B transmission procedures when participating in formationoperations. Per the Aeronautical information Manual (AIM) paragraph 4-1-20, if the formation flight is receiving ATC services, pilots can expect ATC to direct all non-lead aircraft to “STOP SQUAWK”, and should not do so until instructed. For visual flight rules(VFR) formation flights not receiving ATC services, ATC directs that only the lead aircraft should squawk the assigned beacon code(1200). All other aircraft should disable transponder and ADS-B transmissions once established within the formation.• Based on the above FAA policy guidance, the FFI transponder and ADS-B guidance is as follows:• Leads will brief, for all formation flights, that all wingmen will turn off or disable both transponder(STBY or OFF) and ADS-B transmissions (OFF or Disabled), prior to check-in and taxi, and for theduration of the flight.• Leads will squawk the appropriate transponder code and transmit ADS-B for the flight.• It is FFI policy that all aircraft are “established in the formation” upon engine start, and remainestablished in the formation throughout maneuvers such as takeoff rejoins, in-flight pitchouts andrejoins, and extended trail maneuvering.• At tower-controlled airports, Leads should request that “all wingmen stop squawk and ADS-B”during their first transmission to Ground Control. At non tower-controlled airports, in order toestablish good habit patterns of compliance with this ATC requirement, Leads may direct this uponinitial formation check-in, if desired, to support the pre-briefed (and required) mode of operation.For example, “Falcon Flight, squawk STBY, ADS-B OFF”.• If a flight starts operations at a non-towered airport, or does an airborne rejoin while not utilizingATC services, then subsequently utilizes ATC enroute or terminal services (for example, flightfollowing, or a recovery as a formation to a towered airport), Leads should request that “allwingmen continue to stop squawk and ADS-B” during the initial check-in with the first ATC facilitycontacted.• For situations in which a flight launches as a formation, then subsequently breaks up and recoversas individual aircraft, Leads

 

[GyroF-16]

Reviving a thread from last summer…
What’s the best method to stop ADS-B out when using Dynon equipment (Skyview and remote mounted transponder)?
Does selecting “STBY” on the Skyview stop the ADS-B out?
I’m updating a panel in my airplane, and would like to plan ahead for formation work.
If that means adjusting the wiring by adding a switch to disable ADS-B out when necessary, I’d like to factor that into my design.

Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge and experience in this area.

 

[BobTurner]

Reviving a thread from last summer…
What’s the best method to stop ADS-B out when using Dynon equipment (Skyview and remote mounted transponder)?
Does selecting “STBY” on the Skyview stop the ADS-B out?
I’m updating a panel in my airplane, and would like to plan ahead for formation work.
If that means adjusting the wiring by adding a switch to disable ADS-B out when necessary, I’d like to factor that into my design.

Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge and experience in this area.

You are correct. The standard "Dynon system" uses a mode S-ES transponder for ADSB-out. Turning the transponder to "standby" inhibits all transponder transmissions, including the "extended squirter" ADSB-out part.Which is exactly why the current rules are not to use standby, not even on the ground (except for cases like formation flight where the flight lead is the only one squawking). I suppose, strictly speaking, you should re-enable it on the ground unless you are taxiing as a formation. And, in that case, if you really want to get picky, the flight lead should adjust the transmitted length/width parameters to include all the aircraft!

As posted above, you will most likely want to inhibit ADSB-in during formation flight, or you'll get constant collision warnings about the flight lead.

 

[GyroF-16]

You are correct. The standard "Dynon system" uses a mode S-ES transponder for ADSB-out. Turning the transponder to "standby" inhibits all transponder transmissions, including the "extended squirter" ADSB-out part.Which is exactly why the current rules are not to use standby, not even on the ground (except for cases like formation flight where the flight lead is the only one squawking). I suppose, strictly speaking, you should re-enable it on the ground unless you are taxiing as a formation. And, in that case, if you really want to get picky, the flight lead should adjust the transmitted length/width parameters to include all the aircraft!

As posted above, you will most likely want to inhibit ADSB-in during formation flight, or you'll get constant collision warnings about the flight lead.

Excellent, and thanks.
Wasn’t sure if ADS-B out was tied to the old-school “Mode 3/C” transponder. If they all come on and off together, life is easy.

Can I assume that inhibiting ADS-B IN is straightforward in the Skyview transponder menus?

 

[Ed_Wischmeyer]

The reason for the STOP SQUAWK is overlapping (in time) Mode A/C replies from every plane in the formation. If all planes in the formation reply at the same time to the same interrogations, either from ground radars or TCAS-equipped airplanes, those systems would not be able to sort out all the simultaneous replies.

Transponders aren’t wired to allow only Mode A/C to be disabled while allowing Mode S (for ADS-B) to be enabled, and most UAT ADS-B systems require the Mode A/C system to be on as a source of altitude information.

That’s the short answer, maybe not 100% but close enough.

 

[BobTurner]

The reason for the STOP SQUAWK is overlapping (in time) Mode A/C replies from every plane in the formation. If all planes in the formation reply at the same time to the same interrogations, either from ground radars or TCAS-equipped airplanes, those systems would not be able to sort out all the simultaneous replies.

Transponders aren’t wired to allow only Mode A/C to be disabled while allowing Mode S (for ADS-B) to be enabled, and most UAT ADS-B systems require the Mode A/C system to be on as a source of altitude information.

That’s the short answer, maybe not 100% but close enough.

Strictly speaking mode S, the S stands for selectability, an in principle if you had 3 planes in a formation, all with mode S transponders, ATC could 'instruct' each transponder to reply only every 1st, 2nd, or 3rd ping, in sequence, eliminating the overlap problem. ADSB-out is obtained by just appending the ADSB info at the tail end of the usual data output, "extended Squitter", or ES. Only mode S transponders can have ES, but not all mode S transponders have ES, e.g., there are some mode S transponders that cannot broadcast ADSB_out.

 

[Ed_Wischmeyer]

Strictly speaking mode S, the S stands for selectability, an in principle if you had 3 planes in a formation, all with mode S transponders, ATC could 'instruct' each transponder to reply only every 1st, 2nd, or 3rd ping, in sequence, eliminating the overlap problem. ADSB-out is obtained by just appending the ADSB info at the tail end of the usual data output, "extended Squitter", or ES. Only mode S transponders can have ES, but not all mode S transponders have ES, e.g., there are some mode S transponders that cannot broadcast ADSB_out.

Sort of. The Mode S replies would not overlap, but the Mode A/C replies would still be enabled and overlapping. It's not Mode S overlapping that's the problem.

 

[Notso]

In reviewing this thread, I realize now that there were two DIFFERENT things being discussed.

1. How to not be getting the "traffic" distractions while flying as a wingman. As several mentioned, it appears that this is easily done using the disable prompt in the G3X.
2. Not CREATING traffic alerts when you are not the Flight Lead. In this case, each WINGMAN's transponder is set to Standby - "SQUAWK STANDBY"(some turn it off).

As I recall, Lead would be using 1203 for VFR conditions without a specific ATC code (current FFI Leads, correct me if I am wrong).

Finally, remember that if you are not talking to ATC and they see two (or more) "transponders" getting really close to each other, you at at minimum, become a major distraction that they have to worry about. Be courteous (and legal) out there!

All true. Keep in mind however, that not ALL ADS-Bs can be turned off by just Sqwaking "STBY" on the transponder. Some are hardwired to such things as a NAV or strobe light switch, etc. One of the guys I fly formation with has to pull the CB on his ADS-B in order to turn it off.

Also, be aware that if you have a G3X system and set the mode 3 to STBY on the ground if you're the wingman - it will auto turn on as soon as you take off. If I'm the wingman - I have to pull the CB on my transponder for T/O and then once airborne - I push it back in and then set the transponder to STBY so I can still receive traffic displays on my G3X.

Edit: Sorry I didn't notice the date of the post I was replying to. oh well.

 

[Notso]

TRANSPONDER AND ADS-B POLICY/PROCEDURES• FAA Policy Guidance for Transponder and ADS-B operation for formation flights is as follows:• AIM Chapter 4, Section 1, paragraph 4-1-20g.3 states:When participating in a VFR formation flight that is not receiving ATC services, only the lead aircraft should operate theirtransponder and ADS-B Out. All other aircraft should disable transponder and ADS-B transmissions once established within theformation. NOTE – If the formation flight is receiving ATC services, pilots can expect ATC to direct all non-lead aircraft to STOPSQUAWK, and should not do so until instructed.3• FAA Advisory Circular 90-114B, ADS-B Operations, dated 12-30-2019 states, in paragraph 4.3.1.3:Formation Operations. ATC uses established transponder and ADS-B transmission procedures when participating in formationoperations. Per the Aeronautical information Manual (AIM) paragraph 4-1-20, if the formation flight is receiving ATC services, pilots can expect ATC to direct all non-lead aircraft to “STOP SQUAWK”, and should not do so until instructed. For visual flight rules(VFR) formation flights not receiving ATC services, ATC directs that only the lead aircraft should squawk the assigned beacon code(1200). All other aircraft should disable transponder and ADS-B transmissions once established within the formation.• Based on the above FAA policy guidance, the FFI transponder and ADS-B guidance is as follows:• Leads will brief, for all formation flights, that all wingmen will turn off or disable both transponder(STBY or OFF) and ADS-B transmissions (OFF or Disabled), prior to check-in and taxi, and for theduration of the flight.• Leads will squawk the appropriate transponder code and transmit ADS-B for the flight.• It is FFI policy that all aircraft are “established in the formation” upon engine start, and remainestablished in the formation throughout maneuvers such as takeoff rejoins, in-flight pitchouts andrejoins, and extended trail maneuvering.• At tower-controlled airports, Leads should request that “all wingmen stop squawk and ADS-B”during their first transmission to Ground Control. At non tower-controlled airports, in order toestablish good habit patterns of compliance with this ATC requirement, Leads may direct this uponinitial formation check-in, if desired, to support the pre-briefed (and required) mode of operation.For example, “Falcon Flight, squawk STBY, ADS-B OFF”.• If a flight starts operations at a non-towered airport, or does an airborne rejoin while not utilizingATC services, then subsequently utilizes ATC enroute or terminal services (for example, flightfollowing, or a recovery as a formation to a towered airport), Leads should request that “allwingmen continue to stop squawk and ADS-B” during the initial check-in with the first ATC facilitycontacted.• For situations in which a flight launches as a formation, then subsequently breaks up and recoversas individual aircraft, Leads

Since this topic came up again. just something that has always bugged me about the So called "If receiving ATC services - don't stop squawk unless ATC instructs you to" as well as the FFI instruction to add the "Falcon flight stop Squawk, ADSB OFF" verbiage on initial check in with ATC.

I fly in an out of towered airports (numerous) as a formation all the time and not ONCE has ATC instructed the wingmen to stop squawk UNLESS someone forgot on takeoff and ATC has been obviously annoyed about having to remind us.

Also, to me - the FFI policy on first check in with ATC to include the "All wingman stop squawk and ADSB off" seems contradictory to the FAA guidance. What if they didn't want that to happen?? What if the controller WANTED every one to squawk for some weird reason. The FAA guidance is "The controller will DIRECT all non lead a/c to squawk stby". So it seems antithetical for lead to presume to pre-empt them.

Another scenario - in order to comply with the FFI policy - would be if I were moving through several ATC service provider's sectors, for instance Tower to approach to center, to approach, etc like if we were trying to transit a Class B or just getting flight following on a XC as a flight.... The lead would be required to add in that verbiage "All wingmen continue to stop squawk and ADSB OFF" everytime you check in with a new controller. In most busy environments I've flown in - that's a lot of extra comm on a crowded freq. Some controllers would lose their "stuff" and probably put you in the penalty box for garbaging up their freq.

I don't know why the FAA and FFI don't just align their guidance and follow how the military does it. It is automatically assumed that if you are in "Standard" formation - defined as all within 1nm of the lead - then it is automatically assumed that all wingman squawk STBY without having to be told by either the lead or by ATC.

When leading, I personally DO NOT make those additional calls - and not a single time has ATC ever said anything. In fact the one time I did hear a lead follow that FFI policy of announcing that on the check in - the ATC controller was visibly audibly annoyed.

Anyway, just something that's been bugging me for a while. YMMV