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Missing Airframe Logs
- Thread starter BrandonM
- Start date
No need for a DAR if it has an AWC. You will need an A&P to do a condition inspection though so it will have been logged in the last 12 calendar months.
Is it missing airframe, and power plant logs?
Last airplane I bought with missing logs from an estate sale was missing ~3 years prior to the sale date. I paid about 40-50% of market value for the airplane which seems like the going rate.
The family didn’t want to do any digging, “as Is where is”.
After a few phone calls to former owners, mechanics listed on the most recent 337’s (which an experimental won’t likely have), and the engine shop that had replaced the engine within that 3 year time frame, we had a very complete (practically to the hour) recreation of that 3 year window.
That ended up being a total score, but the chance of being not-so lucky, and just general negative perception is largely where the devaluation comes from.
Granted, on an experimental, I think that devaluation could be less, especially since it’s already ineligible for commercial ops etc.
Is it missing airframe, and power plant logs?
Last airplane I bought with missing logs from an estate sale was missing ~3 years prior to the sale date. I paid about 40-50% of market value for the airplane which seems like the going rate.
The family didn’t want to do any digging, “as Is where is”.
After a few phone calls to former owners, mechanics listed on the most recent 337’s (which an experimental won’t likely have), and the engine shop that had replaced the engine within that 3 year time frame, we had a very complete (practically to the hour) recreation of that 3 year window.
That ended up being a total score, but the chance of being not-so lucky, and just general negative perception is largely where the devaluation comes from.
Granted, on an experimental, I think that devaluation could be less, especially since it’s already ineligible for commercial ops etc.
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If you can wait it out... There are people that will buy anything!
Which logs exactly?
Reason as mentioned above is it can be a boon or bust. Imagine the engine logs are missing. No idea how much time on the engine or what was done when. It goes Tango Uniform the day after you buy. Best case is an IRAN and case and crank are ok. Worst case, it's toast and you need a new engine. How much does that effect the offer?
AWC means it was airworthy. An IA can sign off and it can fly again, but what is lurking? Have an experienced RV builder and A&P give it a thorough exam.
sansoneservices
Well Known Member
As you already know missing logs does hurt resale value. To what extent depends upon either you or a potential buyer's willingness to commence a THOROUGH and detailed inspection of the airframe and engine. Luckily experimentals only require an A&P.. if the seller has the inspection completed before the sale it could mean a higher selling price. If the potential buyer pays for a thorough inspection the cost will likely be subtracted from the asking price
Value is a slippery subject. If you really want the airplane, you can justify anything!
From the legal standpoint what hasn’t been mentioned is that you need the Phase 1 sign-off - if you don’t have that, you not only need a Condition Inspection (in the past 12 months) signed off, you’ll need to do the Phase 1 as specified in the Ops Lims. If it’s an older airplane, it probably had the phase 1 complete…but since there are no records, you really need to do it again yourself to ethically sign it off. And its also a great way to get to know an airplane that is new to you. I guess that you could make an argument that the seller should take 40 hours of flight time of the price….but how badly do you want the plane?
From the legal standpoint what hasn’t been mentioned is that you need the Phase 1 sign-off - if you don’t have that, you not only need a Condition Inspection (in the past 12 months) signed off, you’ll need to do the Phase 1 as specified in the Ops Lims. If it’s an older airplane, it probably had the phase 1 complete…but since there are no records, you really need to do it again yourself to ethically sign it off. And its also a great way to get to know an airplane that is new to you. I guess that you could make an argument that the seller should take 40 hours of flight time of the price….but how badly do you want the plane?
I’m glad you mentioned this.. this pretty much was EXACTLY what I told Brandon right before he posted the question here.
n82rb
Well Known Member
first, an IA is not required for an experimental for anything. as ironflight said, a phase one sign off and a CI and its good to go.
as for the engine log books, they are just that a book. the best log books may be a very good fairytale. for the most part, a lycoming just doesn't just come part, they talk to you most of the time before something happens. ive seen very well documented engines come apart and ive been flying behind a 360 that I bought 25 years ago with no log books and have no worries about it, yes its a slightly higher risk, but its not something I worry about. all engines are a crap shoot really.
To the same effect, airframe logs can be a fairytale too. I'd bet there's a lot of RV's flying out there with nothing in the airframe logs but: Condition inspections, a Phase 1 sign off, and ELT/Xpndr checks.... The phase 1 sign off being the only thing of "value" that couldn't be re-signed and made current in a new log book within a weekend.
The general pilot population seems to perceive significant value loss from missing logs (as indicated by typical resale prices), because the GA fleet as a whole does have some serious "make or breaks" hidden in the logs.
RV's are pretty simple airframes, easily inspectable, and the fleet is relatively young. There are not AD's for corroded struts, unobtanium-based retractable landing gear parts, or wonders if the fabric was switched from razorback to ceconite. You're not trying to uncover a history of salt-water seaplane operations, flight school or parachute jump operation, or stumble across a 12,000 hr airframe which is in uncharted territory as far as longevity goes.
Yes there are SB's, inspection for compliance can be completed relatively painlessly.
To the experienced eye, build quality and airframe condition can be recognized with a thorough prebuy. Damage repair is either recognizable (and can be assessed for proper repair), or so seamlessly fixed that it's not a concern anyways. Personally, I'd choose a nicely built RV without logs over a poorly built one with every t crossed and i dotted.
As others said, if you're buying an RV, the value can fluctuate largely depending on how bad you want it. If you're selling, it'd be worth waiting for someone to come along who knows what they're looking at.
