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One more step from dream to reality

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Star Keeper

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Well I took a big step towards making my RV-10 dream a reality. The slab is poured for the workshop and the building goes up in the next month. I'm now in toolset building mode and budget mode. From the tools side of things I'm bouncing between the cleveland kit or the planetools kit. Any opinions on one vs the other? Any items that you would recommend I trim from them or additional items to add? This is going to be a standard slow build kit.

Secondly in the budget side of things I'm currently throwing all of the bells and whistles on the list and trimming them down once I get sticker shock. So what was something that you added that was not included in the Kits, Engine and Avionics orders? Thinking things like lighting, seatbelts, center consoles, AC. Those things that will sneak into a budget and cause overages? I currently have custom seats, Oxygen system, AC, Upgraded door locks, LED Lighting, Upgraded brakes (though I think you can order this in the kit), center console, throttle quadrant, 4 or 5 point restraint systems. Anything else?

Finally I'm looking at shipping estimates for the kits. I'm based in Florida for reference.

Here's the shop footprint. 24x50 with a 14ft door. I feel like I should have gone bigger as this will be a general workshop as well as the plane project home.

IMG_5348.jpg
 
Yeah, no one has ever said my shop is too big!

As far as add ons:

Planearound third door latch…should be mandatory.

Check into the matco brakes. They work really well and are a fraction of the cost of the pretty ones. Note that when the wheel pants are in, you cannot see the rims or calipers. lol.

Aerosport products, well one if everything!

If you are planning an MT three blade prop and a 300 hp engine, research the mtv9 hub. It’s rated at 450 hp instead of the 300 hp MAX for the mtv12.

TUNGSTEN BUCKING BARS.

Set the wheel pants up for retreads. If you do this, you can use new or retread. If you set it up for new, you probably won’t be able to use retreads as they are a bit larger.

600n door struts. You can get them from bansbach for a great price.

Reiff preheat system
 
First of all, it really should be plenty of space. I'm almost ready for the RV-10 finishing kit and I'm building in a one-car garage, with some overflow into the house for parts and specific projects.

For tools, I've been trying to keep this pretty up to date: https://vansairforce.net/threads/new-builder-tool-list-rv-10.225447/. I have spent $15,000 on tools so far, although part of that was an expensive workbench and also other tools you may already have (vice, grinder, bandsaw, etc). I was just thinking if I build another airplane I will probably buy the more expensive Numatx squeezer as it seems easier for some purposes. But probably best to have both pneumatic squeezers. I would also go ahead and buy more yokes up front as I have struggled without some of them and then ended up buying them later (I just ordered the 1" thin-nose yoke yesterday).

I'll give you some real-world budgeting ideas and if it scares you my apologies. It has been a lot more expensive than I expected (I started pre-bankruptcy but paid post-bankruptcy prices for everything but the empennage kit). Overall I'm not sparing any expense -- only the best for this RV-10.

First, here are some areas where I did not spend as much as I could have (not necessarily to save the money, just because I decided against them for one reason or another):
  • Slow-build fuselage
  • No air conditioning
  • No parachute
  • No Thunderbolt engine
  • No third-party wingtips, fairings, wheel pants, cowling, etc (well, so far)
  • Did my own electrical/avionics design and will do my own harness
  • Standard 2-blade metal prop
But there are plenty of areas where I have spent extra (or will spend extra):
  • Quickbuild wings
  • Top-notch Garmin avionics suite
  • Superior Aircraft Components panel
  • Full Aerosport+leather interior
  • Pretty much all of the third-party upgrades
  • Beringer wheels/brakes
  • Evoke Paintjob
So far, I have spent $172,000 and expect $200,000 more to go. Ouch! I thought I would end up under $300k (again, before the price increases).

Some pricing to help you out with planning:
  • Empennage Freight: $900 (I'm in Georgia so close to you)
  • Fuselage Freight: $1700
  • Primer & supplies: $1,750
  • Replacement parts (mistakes): $2,000
  • Andair Fuel Valve: $450
  • Fuel hoses (Aircraft Speciality) and fuel pump: $2,000
  • Beringer Wheel/Brake upgrade: ~$5,000
  • Aerosport (side panels, overhead console, glare shield, instrument panel, etc): ~$7,500
  • Door upgrades (center cam, outside handles, hinges): ~$1,000-$1,500
  • FlyLEDs Lights: ~$1,000
  • Full interior leather (panels, seats, etc): ~$8,500 (Lemke, highly recommend)
  • Panel cutouts: $500-$4000
  • Connectors, wires, switches, etc: $5,000
  • Avionics: mine will be about $50k
  • Paint: $30k or more for a nice paintjob I think
  • Alternators and other engine extras: ~$4,000
  • Seatbelts: ~$1,500
  • Batteries: ~$500-$1500
  • Don't forget the engine ($85k), prop ($12k for 2-bladed), and Firewall Forward kit ($13k)
If you add all of that up you'll see there is about $30k missing. There is just that much "other" stuff that really adds up, at least the way I'm doing it.

I hope that helps!
 
rocketman1988 said:
If you are planning an MT three blade prop and a 300 hp engine, research the mtv9 hub. It’s rated at 450 hp instead of the 300 hp MAX for the mtv12.


Reiff preheat system
Click to expand...
I thought 260hp was the top output engine for the RV-10.

Also do you recommend a preheat system if the aircraft is based in Florida? I guess I could be flying up north...
 
Highly recommend Cleaveland and I second the recommendation to spring for the pneumatic squeezer. I'm not sure about what others supply, but the Cleaveland squeezer has an adjustable ram vs shims - a great time saver. I went with their recommended kit contents for the -14. The few items that I thought I wouldn't need and deleted, I ended up buying from them later.
 
kirkbauer said:
First of all, it really should be plenty of space. I'm almost ready for the RV-10 finishing kit and I'm building in a one-car garage, with some overflow into the house for parts and specific projects.
...
Click to expand...
Thanks for all of that information. I see some budget trimming in my future.
 
Star Keeper said:
I thought 260hp was the top output engine for the RV-10.

Also do you recommend a preheat system if the aircraft is based in Florida? I guess I could be flying up north...
Click to expand...
I have a Barrett built with Cold Air Induction, EFII, and 9:1 compression. It did just shy of 300 hp on the dyno. Works great. It will require a Showplaces cowl because I don't think the CAI will fit in the stock cowl.

The time to put the preheat system on the engine is when it is being built, it is doable after the fact but easier up front. With the capabilities of the RV-10, it is pretty likely that it would be used at some point.
 
A few things that I bought for my '10 that were not in the in the Vans kits (in 2020):
  • Engine and prop
  • Avionics
  • Antennas and antenna doublers
  • Wiring
  • Lights
  • Batteries
  • Backup alternator
  • Door locks
  • Paint (primer, exterior and interior)
  • Paint booth
  • Tools
  • Consumables (scotchbrite, tape etc)
  • Adhesives, proseal, RTV etc
  • Interior (seat covers, rear seat foams, carpets, headliner, side panels, center console, overead console, glare shield cover etc)
  • Vents
  • Tires and tubes
  • Cradle or rotisserie for fuse, cradle for wings
  • Shipping (Vans to you and you to airport)
  • Labels, placards etc
  • A better fuel selector
  • Cutting the panel
  • Demist fans
  • Sun visors
  • Park brake
  • Stick grips
  • Center door latches
  • Seat belts
  • Epoxy resin, glass cloth, flox, glass bubbles etc
  • Replacements for the bits I messed up ;-)
Good luck with the build!
 
I ran into some random guy at OSH the year before I started building, he was just getting ready to start and said “They told me I had to buy a Numatx Squeezer, so you need to buy a Numatx squeezer”.

BEST ADVICE EVER.
Honestly my favorite tool.
 
Star Keeper said:
I'm seeing a theme of "Replacement parts due to mess-ups" showing on these lists. LOL.
Click to expand...
You'll make mistakes as well. Hopefully they're small and recoverable and if not they're on cheap parts that don't require freight.

The 10 kit is a rolling chassis. It has almost no electrical systems, mechanical systems, interior (other than uncovered front seats and the rear seat pans), avionics or instruments, engine or prop. You get about half of a heat system unless you get the FF kit (which is a whole adventure to figure out if you want or need in itself). No consumables are included. You don't even get the baggage door seal (you do get the main door seals but several builds don't use them).

The 10 is already a big project to take on. Every mod and add-on you do adds time and cost and additional complexity. For example, AC will add about $15k to the cost and easily 6 months to the build by the time you get the kit, install it, buy the overhead console, figure out what else goes it in, install it.

There seems to be no way to estimate shipping costs. I've seen them cost 2x what I've paid and gone 1/3 the distance. But it'll be somewhere between $500 and $2000 per shipment. Don't forget about sales tax and cost creep in your budget. The kit has doubled in price and engines are up 50%+ in the roughly 5 years since I started building.
 
I don’t think I saw it in any of the previous replies, but sky designs ER tanks are definitely worth considering. Especially if you are going slow build.
 
Star Keeper said:
I'm seeing a theme of "Replacement parts due to mess-ups" showing on these lists. LOL.
Click to expand...

Yes, I think you should go into it assuming you'll spend a few thousand dollars on fixing mistakes. That way it will hurt less when it happens. Some people replace every part with even a minor mistake, some people build on and gloss over anything that's not a major mistake. Obviously one method is less expensive and faster.

Funny enough, for me, I was more in the "build on" camp at first. But then, due to the LCP issues, I decided to build a good chunk of the empennage again from scratch with brand new parts. For whatever reason, once I did that, I have been more in the "replace anything with mistakes" camp. If I mess up something and it isn't already too late to replace it, I just order a replacement part from Van's and I move on to another part of the plane while I wait for it.

On the other hand, I am now extremely good at drilling out rivets. I can drill out 99% of rivets with zero damage and without enlarging holes. I almost never use "oops rivets" -- oh, another thing to add to your supplies lists.

There have also been logistical mistakes. I ordered the wrong instrument panel from Aerosport (partly my fault, partly their website) and that cost some money in shipping costs to exchange it. I have ordered other things I ended up not needing, some of which I don't bother returning. Oh, and then the classic ones for me:
  • Order from Aircraft Spruce and just can't think of anything else to get to the free shipping level...
  • The next day, have new things to order
  • Same thing with Van's -- now their shipping is a flat $15 for smaller orders. I just placed two orders in one day.
I keep a list of stuff to order from each vendor (Cleaveland, Spruce, Van's) and try to wait until something is an "immediate need" and then buy everything on my list.
 
The thing about building something (anything really) this involved is concentrating on doing very small things, one thing at a time. You will need to lock your head out of thinking about "bells and whistles" and all the "fun" stuff while you focus on those very tiny steps, like getting though deburring your 10,000th rivet hole. I'd suggest just trying to get the empennage completed and do a reality check on how you're feeling about the project at that point. It soon becomes a mental game on how to keep yourself going, not a building skills game, or a money game.
 
Star Keeper said:
Well I took a big step towards making my RV-10 dream a reality. The slab is poured for the workshop and the building goes up in the next month. I'm now in toolset building mode and budget mode. From the tools side of things I'm bouncing between the cleveland kit or the planetools kit. Any opinions on one vs the other? Any items that you would recommend I trim from them or additional items to add? This is going to be a standard slow build kit.

Secondly in the budget side of things I'm currently throwing all of the bells and whistles on the list and trimming them down once I get sticker shock. So what was something that you added that was not included in the Kits, Engine and Avionics orders? Thinking things like lighting, seatbelts, center consoles, AC. Those things that will sneak into a budget and cause overages? I currently have custom seats, Oxygen system, AC, Upgraded door locks, LED Lighting, Upgraded brakes (though I think you can order this in the kit), center console, throttle quadrant, 4 or 5 point restraint systems. Anything else?

Finally I'm looking at shipping estimates for the kits. I'm based in Florida for reference.

Here's the shop footprint. 24x50 with a 14ft door. I feel like I should have gone bigger as this will be a general workshop as well as the plane project home.

View attachment 79061
Click to expand...
My shop is 30X40 and I was able to fully assemble both my RV-7 and Javron Super Cub inside prior to transport to flying field.20240126_172059.jpg
 
71459 said:
The thing about building something (anything really) this involved is concentrating on doing very small things, one thing at a time. You will need to lock your head out of thinking about "bells and whistles" and all the "fun" stuff while you focus on those very tiny steps, like getting though deburring your 10,000th rivet hole. I'd suggest just trying to get the empennage completed and do a reality check on how you're feeling about the project at that point. It soon becomes a mental game on how to keep yourself going, not a building skills game, or a money game.
Click to expand...
I truly believe this is going to be the biggest challenge. Keeping on the project after the dopamine hit of something new wears off.
 
Star Keeper said:
I truly believe this is going to be the biggest challenge. Keeping on the project after the dopamine hit of something new wears off.
Click to expand...

Well the good news is that it keeps changing. When you start on the empennage (as a first-time builder), everything is new. By the time you are done with that, the metalworking portion is pretty familiar. But at the end you get a taste of fiberglass. The fuselage starts out a bit repetitive but then you start getting into customizations/mods which is new. But then you get to a bunch of new stuff: interior paint, fuel system, brake system, control system, etc. Then tons of fiberglass -- cabin top, doors, fairings, wheel pants, cowling, etc. Then, eventually, the engine, avionics, and electrical. All of these are quite distinct.

For me, I think I'm sticking with quick-build wings because I'm getting a bit burnt out on deburring, dimpling, and riveting, especially after repeat builds in the empennage. Also, I'm getting into the exciting parts for me (interior, avionics, and electrical). I don't have room to work on the wings with the fuselage in the way (again, only a 1-car garage) so I'd like to get the fuselage done -- by that I mean interior, engine, fairings, avionics, etc. Well at that point is effectively ready to fly except for the wings. I don't want the fuselage to sit in my hangar for 6-12mo while I do the slow-build wings.
 
kirkbauer said:
Well the good news is that it keeps changing. When you start on the empennage (as a first-time builder), everything is new. By the time you are done with that, the metalworking portion is pretty familiar. But at the end you get a taste of fiberglass. The fuselage starts out a bit repetitive but then you start getting into customizations/mods which is new. But then you get to a bunch of new stuff: interior paint, fuel system, brake system, control system, etc. Then tons of fiberglass -- cabin top, doors, fairings, wheel pants, cowling, etc. Then, eventually, the engine, avionics, and electrical. All of these are quite distinct.

For me, I think I'm sticking with quick-build wings because I'm getting a bit burnt out on deburring, dimpling, and riveting, especially after repeat builds in the empennage. Also, I'm getting into the exciting parts for me (interior, avionics, and electrical). I don't have room to work on the wings with the fuselage in the way (again, only a 1-car garage) so I'd like to get the fuselage done -- by that I mean interior, engine, fairings, avionics, etc. Well at that point is effectively ready to fly except for the wings. I don't want the fuselage to sit in my hangar for 6-12mo while I do the slow-build wings.
Click to expand...
I was tempted to buy a kit out there that was partially assembled but there is a big part of me that wants to bang each rivet myself. That will wear out really quickly I'm sure. The other thing I'm looking at is the possibility of adding extended tanks as my typical mission is 2 pax plus bags.
 
I initially bought a tail kit that had minimal work done on it. I then worked on building the horizontal stabilizer. I was just about ready to start on the elevators when I found a kit that was empennage, wings and fuse. So I ended up buying that kit. The empennage was mostly done, and the wings to nearly quick-build stage. The fuse was not started. For me, this was a good leap forward. I also initially thought I would like to do a "virgin" kit, but have since realized that buying a partial completed kit was a good move for me. That said, it did drop me into the middle of the decision making portion of the build and that has slowed me more than I would have anticipated. I think the value of building some of the tedious parts (wings) is that it gives you time to think through all the options.

The previous builder did excellent work, and I'm happy to continue building on his craftsmanship. The other value was the lead time availability and distance to go pick it up. When I was buying, the leadtimes were much longer.

What type of garage/shop building frame are you doing? Feel free to post a few more pics, that is interesting as well!! I built my own garage before starting on the -10. mission creep and life made it a long build (floor heat, attic truss, dormers, standing seam roof, brick, plumbing, electrical distribution, metal fab equipment, etc), but then I have a variety of interests....

Brad
 
Star Keeper said:
Well I took a big step towards making my RV-10 dream a reality. The slab is poured for the workshop and the building goes up in the next month. I'm now in toolset building mode and budget mode. From the tools side of things I'm bouncing between the cleveland kit or the planetools kit. Any opinions on one vs the other? Any items that you would recommend I trim from them or additional items to add? This is going to be a standard slow build kit.

Secondly in the budget side of things I'm currently throwing all of the bells and whistles on the list and trimming them down once I get sticker shock. So what was something that you added that was not included in the Kits, Engine and Avionics orders? Thinking things like lighting, seatbelts, center consoles, AC. Those things that will sneak into a budget and cause overages? I currently have custom seats, Oxygen system, AC, Upgraded door locks, LED Lighting, Upgraded brakes (though I think you can order this in the kit), center console, throttle quadrant, 4 or 5 point restraint systems. Anything else?

Finally I'm looking at shipping estimates for the kits. I'm based in Florida for reference.

Here's the shop footprint. 24x50 with a 14ft door. I feel like I should have gone bigger as this will be a general workshop as well as the plane project home.

View attachment 79061
Click to expand...
Do you have plans? My builder wants plans to take to the county
 
Star Keeper said:
Well I took a big step towards making my RV-10 dream a reality. The slab is poured for the workshop and the building goes up in the next month. I'm now in toolset building mode and budget mode. From the tools side of things I'm bouncing between the cleveland kit or the planetools kit. Any opinions on one vs the other? Any items that you would recommend I trim from them or additional items to add? This is going to be a standard slow build kit.

Secondly in the budget side of things I'm currently throwing all of the bells and whistles on the list and trimming them down once I get sticker shock. So what was something that you added that was not included in the Kits, Engine and Avionics orders? Thinking things like lighting, seatbelts, center consoles, AC. Those things that will sneak into a budget and cause overages? I currently have custom seats, Oxygen system, AC, Upgraded door locks, LED Lighting, Upgraded brakes (though I think you can order this in the kit), center console, throttle quadrant, 4 or 5 point restraint systems. Anything else?

Finally I'm looking at shipping estimates for the kits. I'm based in Florida for reference.

Here's the shop footprint. 24x50 with a 14ft door. I feel like I should have gone bigger as this will be a general workshop as well as the plane project home.

View attachment 79061
Click to expand...
While you are adding cost of stuff for the plane, add up the empty weight at the same time. It could influence your purchase decisions.
 
Star Keeper said:
I was tempted to buy a kit out there that was partially assembled but there is a big part of me that wants to bang each rivet myself. That will wear out really quickly I'm sure. The other thing I'm looking at is the possibility of adding extended tanks as my typical mission is 2 pax plus bags.
Click to expand...
Really no downside to doing the extended range tanks; they are there if you need them but you never have to fill them up if you don't want to.
 
flysrv10 said:
While you are adding cost of stuff for the plane, add up the empty weight at the same time. It could influence your purchase decisions.
Click to expand...
There is a spreadsheet on the RV-10 wiki with actual empty weight and cg values. I think, for the most part they are all within 75 lbs of each other.
 
I'm curious about something. I've always drooled over the decked out luxury RV-10s. AC, Integrated oxygen, fully done interiors. What does a bare bones RV-10 look like inside? Does it come with front seats or do I need to order them from a company? Now that I'm diving into the budget of things I'm realizing I don't know what all comes in the kit and what I would need to delete if I bought something aftermarket. Definitely hitting analysis paralysis. Can anyone refer me to some interior pics of a bare bones RV-10 somewhere on here? Google doesn't seem to be helpful.
 
With the five official kits plus engine and prop you still don't have a flyable plane. You need a lot more from oil filters to some sort of avionics. Some specific essentials not in the kits: electric fuel pump, fuel filter, ELT, radio, transponder, lights, center cam door lock, battery, sticks, visors, switches, etc. I'm probably forgetting a bunch.

For the interior you get a basic flat instrument panel that you can definitely use, seat frames, and some aluminum interior panels. No carpet or seat coverings. I think you get foam for the front seats and maybe the rear. In many places there are no interior panels so you would see any wiring and the exterior skin.

As of a year ago you can no longer delete anything from any kits except the firewall forward kit. But from an interior perspective I'm not sure there is much you would want to delete anyway.

There are some larger modifications that have become more expensive because you can't delete any of the kit parts and you will end up with a substantial number of items that are unneeded and fairly expensive. Some examples: extended range fuel tanks, non-standard engine, and many alternates for fiberglass parts: cowling, wheel pants, wingtips.
 
Here is a picture of the basic panel, but there are plenty of other upgrades in the picture: Aerosport center console, Aerosport front side panels, Aerosport door handles, seat coverings, glare shield cover, carpet, sticks and boots.

Without those plastic side panels you would see some ribs, wires/conduit, and the inside of the outer skin.

1000005173.jpg
 
Here's a picture of the Vans RV-10 demonstrator N410RV before it was pimped with a new panel. This is stock plus carpets, stick grips, vents, interior paint and the edging on the glare shield. I don't have a picture of the rear seat ara but it is similar.

1737783438999.png
 
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