Thanks. Further search revealed the reason I couldn't find the tape is that I copied it onto a DVD and discarded the tape.
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Off-Airport landing; RV-14A; N144ND
- Thread starter Plummit
- Start date
Hey folks - just a reminder that this thread is a report on an off-field landing, and I think we all appreciate the pilot’s candor and willingness to give us a first hand report on his experience. He gave us his impression of the glide based on his aircraft’s condition, and he has expressed that he’d like to keep some of the details to himself until insurance and investigations are complete.
Let’s not turn this into a debate on stuff that will make him regret posting what happened - we need pilots feeling comfortable to recount experiences like this here on the forum!
While there is some good generic data being presented, it is not specific to this incident, and would be easier to find (in the future) under a different thread….and it won’t take this one in a direction that might be regrettable.
If you want to start (or re-start) a thread on glides under various conditions, there are bunches of them to choose from.
Of course, this is just my opinion…..
Paul
Let’s not turn this into a debate on stuff that will make him regret posting what happened - we need pilots feeling comfortable to recount experiences like this here on the forum!
While there is some good generic data being presented, it is not specific to this incident, and would be easier to find (in the future) under a different thread….and it won’t take this one in a direction that might be regrettable.
If you want to start (or re-start) a thread on glides under various conditions, there are bunches of them to choose from.
Of course, this is just my opinion…..
Paul
Syrus,
Thanks for sharing your experience and observations. As others have said, great job...sure appears you displayed very solid aviation decision-making, resulting in a very favorable outcome (the landing you walk away from) in a challenging scenario...in pretty unfriendly terrain.
Your description of the visual appearances at various altitudes is great info...and great data to store away, and share with other pilots, Flight Review pilots or students (I still teach a bit). Thanks for that.
The observation about prop-stopped glide ratio and visual cues is very interesting (and that is not to refute or debate what you saw and felt). "Long ago, in a galaxy far away", when instructing in college, I had an engine failure in a C-150. I was fortunate enough to be at 2000', right over a glider field, and landed my Cessna "glider" there. Two 360's at best glide to get to the runway. During the second 360, the prop stopped (aerodynamically, not due to the engine seizing after the failure). My experience was that the glide increased notably with the prop stopped vs windmilling...I had to raise the nose just a little to maintain best glide. I stayed close to the runway, and slipped to make the field. I'm sharing this just for positive discussion's sake. When you do share more of the experience (at the apropos time), it will be interesting to hear if you felt the best glide pitch attitude felt slightly higher than what you expected (similar to my experience), and how the descent rate and entire process felt different from practice, and how you would consider changing your procedures or checklists. I'm about to give primary instruction to the bride/co-builder of an RV-9A couple at our airpark, and both your experience and mine will be valuable training aids. I also wonder if Scott may be on to something in an earlier post, when he mentioned the RPM/power used when we practice engine outs. Finding that true "fully windmilling" spot is not easy with a healthy engine running, and finding true "zero thrust" can be challenging too. Look forward to the discussion.
Bottom line though, you were handed a scary **** sandwich, and did a great job! And thanks again for sharing the experience!
Cheers,
Bob
Edit Note: Paul, I posted this as you posted yours above...didn't see it prior. Hopefully mine is in the right spirit...it was not intended to debate...just compare an experience I had, and foster positive discussion.
Thanks for sharing your experience and observations. As others have said, great job...sure appears you displayed very solid aviation decision-making, resulting in a very favorable outcome (the landing you walk away from) in a challenging scenario...in pretty unfriendly terrain.
Your description of the visual appearances at various altitudes is great info...and great data to store away, and share with other pilots, Flight Review pilots or students (I still teach a bit). Thanks for that.
The observation about prop-stopped glide ratio and visual cues is very interesting (and that is not to refute or debate what you saw and felt). "Long ago, in a galaxy far away", when instructing in college, I had an engine failure in a C-150. I was fortunate enough to be at 2000', right over a glider field, and landed my Cessna "glider" there. Two 360's at best glide to get to the runway. During the second 360, the prop stopped (aerodynamically, not due to the engine seizing after the failure). My experience was that the glide increased notably with the prop stopped vs windmilling...I had to raise the nose just a little to maintain best glide. I stayed close to the runway, and slipped to make the field. I'm sharing this just for positive discussion's sake. When you do share more of the experience (at the apropos time), it will be interesting to hear if you felt the best glide pitch attitude felt slightly higher than what you expected (similar to my experience), and how the descent rate and entire process felt different from practice, and how you would consider changing your procedures or checklists. I'm about to give primary instruction to the bride/co-builder of an RV-9A couple at our airpark, and both your experience and mine will be valuable training aids. I also wonder if Scott may be on to something in an earlier post, when he mentioned the RPM/power used when we practice engine outs. Finding that true "fully windmilling" spot is not easy with a healthy engine running, and finding true "zero thrust" can be challenging too. Look forward to the discussion.
Bottom line though, you were handed a scary **** sandwich, and did a great job! And thanks again for sharing the experience!
Cheers,
Bob
Edit Note: Paul, I posted this as you posted yours above...didn't see it prior. Hopefully mine is in the right spirit...it was not intended to debate...just compare an experience I had, and foster positive discussion.
I've been thinking about this nonstop and how my practice did or did not prepare me. First let me say, none of what went through my head was in words. It was instantaneous impressions. As soon as I saw the power poles, I saw a wing clipping a pole and an electrical fire. Just like that the road was no longer an option. I don't know if that's good or bad. When I got close to the dirt road and saw the hump in the middle and the bushes, I saw my nose gear digging in at high speed. When I saw a flat lane through the mounds I saw an image of my plane plowing through dirt. My heart broke but it looked like I'd survive. That's how it went. The time spent in practice pulling the power and gliding to a runway didn't help more than, for example, practicing precision or short-field landings.
The biggest help by far was that I had multiple landings off paved runways. I knew what my plane felt like digging into soft grass. I'd been pitched back into the air by bumps I couldn't see before touchdown and I knew my plane could handle it. All of that experience was there for me.
If you're like I used to be, you're imagining that your practiced skills will get you that extra 30 or 50 yards to a runway and save the day. I have an alternative to that point of view now, which is that you won't be willing to gamble by cutting it that close when it's for real. If there's anything that looks more certain, even if it means you'll lose your airplane, you'll take that option. IMHO. For myself, I'll still practice gliding on occasion, but I'm going to spend more time practicing other things.
I should probably thank you and everyone else for the free therapy sessions. You didn't even ask a question so this is apparently more for me than it is for you. Bottomline, I'll speak only for myself, I feel like my training and practice over prepared me for the last two minutes but didn't prepare me to make the most of the first two minutes.
I'm happy to say I didn't hesitate. After focusing on airspeed and thinking about trimming for best glide for too long, I simultaneously went through engine restart and put out a mayday call. You know what happens after a mayday call? (I didn't.) ATC has questions for you. And that helpful human voice in my ear felt wonderful so I answered the questions without hesitation. "How much fuel onboard?" and so on. Was that really the best use of my time and mental resources in that moment? (Answer: Nope.)
Was engine restart a priority? In my mind, in that moment, nothing since the dawn of creation seemed to matter more. But think it through--if your engine is going to restart, the crisis is over. If it's not going to restart, you're wasting altitude. On my next emergency procedures card "engine restart" is going right before "Fuel to OFF".
So here's my solution. My next emergency procedures card for loss of engine will begin with "What is your altitude? Say aloud." That will direct me to the front or back of the card. At the onset of the next crisis, I know I will enter into reaction mode, which is perfect if I'm low to the ground and short on time. But if I'm not about die, the most important first step is to get my mind out of reaction mode and into analysis mode, and I know I'm going to need some help with that. That's what the emergency procedures card is for.
I adapted my emergency procedures card for my RV from my Cessna flying days. For engine out, Step 1, trim for best glide speed. Guess what? In an RV that was going 172kts a few seconds ago, that's not going to matter right away. Step 2, select a forced landing area. I'm still working on what I want for the critical altitude, but if you're above...say...5,000', which we usually are, this is a waste of time, and it can eat up a lot of time. Whatever information you think you're getting from looking outside will be inaccurate and possibly counterproductive. If you have a glass panel, what's in front of you is more useful. Step 3. Engine restart. You see where I'm going with this.
Anyone who has read all of this can send me a bill for your time. (Seriously--the support I'm getting means a lot. Thanks. Sy)
I can't thank you enough for explaining what you went through with such thought and detail. I will have to sift through all this again and likely modify my EMERGENCY CHECK LIST which is permanently on my kneeboard separate from my other checklists and instantly available. I need to go through it and see how what you accomplished in that time relates to what I have on my check list. It might need some revision........ I also need to revisit my emergency procedure practices with some of what you have shared in mind.
Several points that came to mind: I would have to fiddle with my radio to get up my emergency frequency, even though my channel changing switch is on the China hat on my stick. Aviate (trim for best glide. Where in space does my airplane need to be) Navigate: (where am I going with my airplane) Communicate. (If you are able!) Um.....I'm a little busy here..... Communication ;might also involve talking to your back-seater (or side-seater). I have heard before with pilots who have had a true emergency that trying to pay attention to and answer that 'friendly voice' is a major distraction to what is happening HERE AND NOW! One has to think about things that might not need to be thought about at this moment in time! (How much fuel on board that I am probably not going to be able to use?) Some have suggested to declare and turn the volume off.
I am very used to landing off-field. (That was shown to me during my first hour of instruction by my World's Best Instructor). I wonder if having that experience not being a big deal would have made a difference. You noted previously that maybe a -A might not be a future choice and tail-dragger might have been better in your emergency situation. When I heard of the mound on the dirt road my first thought was 'Yeah?' until you explained that you were concerned about your nose gear digging in. I hadn't thought of that. I have landed on many dirt roads in the Cub. (Vlad: chime in here, if you are reading this!) Wider wingspan and power lines/fences are a concern. I land where those aren't a problem but those are not in an emergency. The time the Cub stuck a valve I was instantly set up to land in a handy wheat stubble field, which is where most of my off-field landings happen. My thoughts at the time: Oh: there's a good place to land. Again, I wonder if having that as a common experience would have made a difference. I was fortunate that landing in stubble fields was routine for my instructor; it might be difficult to find one willing to show you that these days. Someone versed at STOL flying might be willing.
Huh. Lots to think about here! Again: thanks for sharing! You have given us all a lot to think about and fodder to assess our own procedures. Nothing like the Real Thing!
No: YOU need to send ME a bill for your excellent writing about your experience! I'm just more than happy that you are HERE to explain it all to us! THANKS!
Outsider question to me: Do you actually get that much from the RV Forum? Me: OMG............!!
I do the same looking at flat fields on the sides of the road. Some of them are really rough but probably appear as perfect landing areas from 1000 AGL which @bobhope2505 experienced first hand. I really hope for a full stall touch down and if the plane has to flip over it's going to do it gently. So glad things went well for Syrus.
Today is the last day to get a decent discount on Machado’s 6 hour course on in flight emergencies.
First and foremost - any landing you can walk away from is a good one. Well done, sir! The OP (Syrus) relayed 2 excellent perspectives of what you can expect when the fan quits blowing - the sink rate of your A/C will likely be quite a bit greater than what you've experienced in practice (fly and trim Vg) and the terrain detail you see from cruise altitude vs as you are descending changes considerably, along with the dynamic nature of picking - and possibly re-picking your LZ. The most important part to remember - FLY the airplane; stalling it makes landing it moot - and don't be afraid to change your plan if you need to 
And if not, land alongside if possible..... At least you will know someone will eventually pass by.
At that point, why not ground loop it. You stand a better chance of keeping it upright.
I think you missed my point. With the prop stopped, the more shallow (high rpm) that mechanical pitch stop is, the higher the drag will be.
I think the difference in Blade angle and resulting drag between a prop with properly adjusted low pitch stops and one that is slightly off will be minuscule.
I would love to see your updated emergency procedures card whenever you're done with it.
turbo
Well Known Member
so glad you are ok. people can't be replaced.
I have been thru a similar situation with a total loss of aircraft. no story to tell.
I was motivated by pilot friends to get back in the air. I did within a week and it was not easy. I was with my instructor in a 182 and I am glad he was with me. my mind was in a place I could not believe. we flew back the place of the accident. I can't explain the awful feeling it was but I believe it started the healing process. good luck on your flying future.
I have been thru a similar situation with a total loss of aircraft. no story to tell.
I was motivated by pilot friends to get back in the air. I did within a week and it was not easy. I was with my instructor in a 182 and I am glad he was with me. my mind was in a place I could not believe. we flew back the place of the accident. I can't explain the awful feeling it was but I believe it started the healing process. good luck on your flying future.
Syrus,
It's hard to properly put into words how grateful I am that you took the time to write all these thoughts out post-accident. This is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping this site would showcase, embrace and encourage. I've never had a perfect flight in my life, and I'm always trying to get a little better each time, and what you took the time to put down in words is much appreciated. It's helping me (and I suspect others) improve emergency action items.
I'm glad you're here, and I'm glad you're helping us learn and reflect.
Anything you need, buddy.....you ask.
v/r,dr
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That's the take-home.
My first instructors emphasized the airplane was entirely disposable, and to forget about trying to park it in one piece unless it was really, really convenient to do so. Fences, hedges, bushes, crops...all friends to be used for energy absorption.
Not long after, as a young Piper salesman, I phoned a prospect at his office to see how he was coming along with his PPL training. His secretary was obviously shocked to hear from me, and informed me he had died in a plane crash. There was nothing to do but stammer, apologize, and hang up.
Turned out he had failed an engine in a 172, set up an approach to a pasture, then apparently spotted a cross fence on short final and tried to turn parallel to it. He made the turn, but was still slightly airborne when he ran out of room at the treeline.
Of course the NTSB focused on the proximate cause (the engine failure) and said nothing about the real lesson...the one which might actually save someone's life.
Syrus, thanks for the reminder.
Thanks. I practiced engine out landings with the prop feathered. That will change going forward. The difference between a feathered prop and one stuck at flat pitched rattled my cage in the initial phase. It felt like I was dropping out of the sky and the sight picture was wrong. After an unknown length of time, I adjusted to what I was seeing with and didn't focus on it towards the end. I trimmed to 85kts at the beginning, but the speed crept up sometime after that at and I didn't notice right away. Not that it would have mattered since I was 8 miles from a runway.
It has happened to me twice. Yes, your choice of touchdown spot evolves as you get lower and lower. Both airframes that quit on me were destroyed.
But, gentleman aviator Bob Hoover was over my shoulder reminding me to fly all the way to where all energy is dissipated. (Well, fire still releases much more... but I ran as fast as possible after exiting the plane) The point of my reply and comments though is the mystery that remains. The NTSB is allotted only so much time for investigation. And it is miserly if no fatalities result. In both my crashes, no probable cause was determined.
This may happen to you as well. That's the irony. The good job you did may prevent you from getting to the root cause of the engine stoppage. Hope I am wrong on this prediction.
But, gentleman aviator Bob Hoover was over my shoulder reminding me to fly all the way to where all energy is dissipated. (Well, fire still releases much more... but I ran as fast as possible after exiting the plane) The point of my reply and comments though is the mystery that remains. The NTSB is allotted only so much time for investigation. And it is miserly if no fatalities result. In both my crashes, no probable cause was determined.
This may happen to you as well. That's the irony. The good job you did may prevent you from getting to the root cause of the engine stoppage. Hope I am wrong on this prediction.
So, drifting a bit off topic here, but if the NTSB never finishes the investigation, or they come out (or not) and do an investigation and declare the field work finished and go back to their coffee and donuts, is there opportunity for the owner/operator to examine the wreckage to determine cause of failure prior to the insurance company taking possession of it? Or maybe that's a case-by-case basis with the insurance company. Is there a clear-cut point in time when the NTSB/FAA raises their hands up and say "We're done with it" and now you can examine it?
Thankfully I've never been here, and don't want to be...
I would guess the removing the top cowl there will be evidence of cause of failure. Hole in the crankcase is common with stoppage of rotation.
Outstanding job by the OP, especially keeping is right side up. The departure of the nose gear certainly helped keeping it right side up.
Outstanding job by the OP, especially keeping is right side up. The departure of the nose gear certainly helped keeping it right side up.
Me too. Thank you and glad you survived to tell.
lndwarrior
Well Known Member
Not long ago, while flying directly over my airport and with a lot of recent experience, I pulled the mixture and stopped the prop. My feelings were the same - it was nothing like the "engine out" practice I had been doing for years. I was able to land without restarting but if this had ben a real emergency, the startle factor may have put me too far behind the plane before I understood what was happening.
I concur. Many moons ago had a gear failure. I hand cranked the gear, did the required fly by, etc. The last checklist item was to shut down the engine. I waited until I was landing assured (or thought I was) and pulled the mixture. It got super super quiet and she dropped like a rock; my landing was on the numbers. Like Cyrus my experience was much different than rehearsed in training.
Cyrus: Glad you are well. Any landing you can walk away from. Years ago a friend put one in some trees and he joked it was his ‘best’ because he had to walk 5 miles to the road. Hope you are in the sky again soon.
Question: How does this work now with the insurance company? Presumably they'll total it and give you a check. Is it likely to be enough to start a new build? What parts would you want back and how would that affect the payout?
Pilot135pd
Well Known Member
It used to be (I haven't had a claim since July 1997. "No Pilot Error" was found back then) that you got paid off for the total loss and the remnants are owned by the insurance company. Then the IC would give you a number to pay them if you wanted to buy the remnants from them and if you thought it was worth it you pay and keep what's left of the plane, saving the IC from having to move it and store it somewhere. With companies like Wentworth doing insurance auctions now, I'm not sure how it currently works.
In an attempt to keep the prop condition to glide ratio performance banter light-hearted, maybe this pilot has some opinions on the topic ...
Prop comes off video
Glad you were able to safely return to earth and have a great attitude and willingness to share your experience for the rest of us to learn from
Prop comes off video
Glad you were able to safely return to earth and have a great attitude and willingness to share your experience for the rest of us to learn from
That was Cliff?? Wicker at College Park MD. In that era he was part of the Flying Circus in Bealton VA. In that era lots of crank flange failures on Lycomings and on P&W 985 Stearmans. In some cases the entire engine came off Stearmans. The Lycoming issues were never solved with metal prop but pretty much went away with the German Props, Hoffman and then MT.
Canadian_JOY
Well Known Member
So glad to hear you are ok, Sy. It's my turn to issue you a hearty "Well done!"
With respect to practicing engine out scenarios, it's worthwhile to note that late autumn evenings when the sun is very near the horizon provide very different lighting - the ground shadows in this light become much more visible. I've been using this lighting to essentially magnify and make more visible the natural irregularities of the terrain in fields surrounding my home airport. It's surprising how different a field appears from 1000' when it is lit with mid-day sun and when it is lit with the sidelong glance of the setting autumn sun. I keep hoping this technique will allow me to be better prepared should I experience an engine failure near my home field.
Anyhow, just an observation/thought to be shared since we know most folks reading this thread are trying to learn the lessons Sy has so kindly shared with us. The more we learn, the better we might be prepared when an engine failure becomes very real rather than a training event.
Again, I'm glad to hear you are ok Sy, and I thank you for your patience and bravery in sharing thoughts about your experience so we might all benefit from your "real life" experience.
With respect to practicing engine out scenarios, it's worthwhile to note that late autumn evenings when the sun is very near the horizon provide very different lighting - the ground shadows in this light become much more visible. I've been using this lighting to essentially magnify and make more visible the natural irregularities of the terrain in fields surrounding my home airport. It's surprising how different a field appears from 1000' when it is lit with mid-day sun and when it is lit with the sidelong glance of the setting autumn sun. I keep hoping this technique will allow me to be better prepared should I experience an engine failure near my home field.
Anyhow, just an observation/thought to be shared since we know most folks reading this thread are trying to learn the lessons Sy has so kindly shared with us. The more we learn, the better we might be prepared when an engine failure becomes very real rather than a training event.
Again, I'm glad to hear you are ok Sy, and I thank you for your patience and bravery in sharing thoughts about your experience so we might all benefit from your "real life" experience.
Case by case I suppose. On one of my crashes, the salvage yard let me (and an A&P) in for a while to inspect the engine. No conclusions from the evidence. In the burned plane, there wasn't enough to inspect....
Pilot135pd
Well Known Member
Bob Hoover survived 17 crashes in his military, test pilot and airshow days. The most remarkable to me was the F86 with experimental fly by wire pitch control. Takeoff at LA Intl, when he retracted the landing gear the airplane pitched up out of control. After turning around the first descent was below some hangars. He kept experimenting with various configurations of power and flaps and got the airplane under control. He decided to go to Edwards. In turbulence over the mountains he lost and then regained control again. Landed safely at Edwards. He had been monitoring a company frequency on takeoff and they were screaming at him to eject. At Edwards he learned the ejection seat had never been armed. The cause was the fly by wire wiring in the wheel well area was damaged when the gear retracted.Wait, what?
Glad you're still with us !
One of the remarkable things about Hoover was that he did not have a lot of total time. In many cases he had ferry pilots to position the airplanes for airshows.
Another of my favorites is the video showing him pouring ice tea in the Shrike while inverted.
Just to be a bit more specific, he didn't pour ice tea while flying inverted. It was done during a roll going through inverted while maintaining 1 positive G.
Pilot135pd
Well Known Member
You kind of expect that with a test pilot. Didn't expect it from an avionics guy.
All of Bobs rolls in the Shrike were positive G. He did four point rolls for sure. I think the tea demo might have been easier while momentarily pausing wings level inverted. The video is still available. Poor quality.
I was at the Reading Airshow sometime in the late 60's. The grass areas along the runways are not level. Bob was doing a low pass to the right of the runway and there was a cloud of dust. He hit the top of a high spot, probably going 200 plus. Kept going and finished the show. He got out of the airplane, put on his hat and walked away. Several of the "suits" from Rockwell?? were down on their knees looking at the damage to the belly. The next day the airplane had a huge piece of aluminum held in place with sheet metal screws and painted. I always wondered what the FAA thought of that.
On another occasion at Reading Hoover his some wires with the P51.
Hoover flew the EAA shows starting in the Rockford era. P51 and a borrowed F86. Interesting to watch spins in the 86. The slats would pop in and out and the spin would hesitate. He allegedly spun the 86 down to short final at a very low altitude, dropped the landing gear and landed. This was done while demonstrating the 86 to the USAF pilots in Korea.
Thank you! My wife is glad too.Wait, what?
I should do a whole post on what I didn't know about aircraft insurance. They're quite happy to give you a check, especially for an RV wreck. Turns out there's a market for RV parts in other countries without the regulatory requirements we have in the U.S. If you want to rebuild with the parts you built, as I hope to, you have to buy their salvage rights. They get "courtesy bids" from salvage yards and you have to agree to "pay" that amount, which is deducted from the policy limit. If you don't agree, the wreckage goes out to auction, most of which are online through sealed bids. You have to decide whether to pay or gamble.
Do you know if you can also bid in that auction or is it limited to the salvage yards?
Preliminary report states "no visible external damage" to engine.
Pilot135pd
Well Known Member
Anyone can bid. I see them all the time online and on eBay. Google "Wentworth Aircraft". That's one company who sells off insurance claims.
Wentworth has both damaged and non damaged airplanes for sale on ebay. There is also a salvage company in Phoenix and one in Dallas that will occasionally have a listing on ebay or barnstormers. Wentworth has been in business a long time.
There is currently about a half dozen companies that handle insurance salvage sales. Some are the actual insurer and some are brokers that handle the sale of the salvage for the insurance companies.
Wentworth is a salvaging company that bids at the insurance auctions. Their standard operation with auctions they win is to part out the salvage by selling the engine and avionics at fixed prices and then holding their own auction on Ebay for what ever is left (common process for any experimental) or on Certificated aircraft, parting out the airframe to sell as replacement parts (they have a huge certified parts inventory).
Also, for those who didn't hear, Chuck Wentworth died in late November
RV7Aflyer
Active Member
Good question and I would really like to know if there was a noticed difference in elevator response and stall speed.
