A&P requirement

[Bavafa]

I was wondering if anyone knows if we our experience of building could be substitute for the work experience that is required for an A&P Cert. I have built three RVs and have been maintaining them for over 15 years now and it would be great if that will satisfy the work experience that is required.

Thanks in advance

 

[Ironflight]

Building/maintaining experience CAN be used to help satisfy the requirements - a lot is left up to the individual Inspector who signs off on your application so that you can test. The biggest problem for many is that building RV’s doesn’t teach you much about tube and fabric….or building engines….or turbines….or those awful questions about fire detection systems….or antique generator systems.

In short - all hours are not equal, and your inspector might make you show experience with a wider range of aircraft tHan just metal light airplanes.

The scariest thing about my A&P is that it allows me to work on anything that flies….large turbine aircraft, helicopters, civilianized military aircraft… it is - humbling!

 

[rvmills]

Mehrdad,

I just earned my A&P certificate (my newest "license to learn" ) and my experience was primarily from owning, maintaining, repairing and modifying the 4 planes I have owned. The SJSU Aero degree was a benefit, as well a varied aviation career...but it was the time-in-work on my planes that earned the endorsement. After hoping to do this for years, I ran into a benevolent FAA Mx Inspector at an airshow I was flying in, and was able to put together the documentation that he needed to sign my FAA form 8610-2, endorsing me to take the written exams. I then went to Baker School of Aeronautics, drank from the firehose, and took the writtens, oral and practical exams. Another of our airshow team pilots earned his endorsement from the same FAA Inspector from his time building and maintaining his RV-7 and RV-10. It appears the rules or guidelines that the Inspectors are using have changed to allow this. I think finding the right inspector, that appreciates what Experimental builders' experience includes, is key too.

As Paul described, one thing that struck me was the breadth of information that A&P candidates are tested on in the writtens and during the oral. The practical was pretty straight forward, and I felt well prepared for that. Baker was very good at prepping for all of it, especially the writtens. You having built and maintained 3 RVs is an impressive resume to me, as I've not built one start to finish (done years of race and other mods, repairs and alterations...but not a start to finish build). I've owned 3 experimental planes, and one certificated (Standard AW Cert) plane, and two have been tube and fabric, so that was helpful too. I have been fortunate enough to have flown recips, turboprops and turbines, so have had good training there...enough familiarization that those areas made sense and were not new ground during the written prep. Was able to help a few classmates navigate that area a bit when doing group study...and the helicopter bubbas returned the favor. Others in the class were owners/maintainers, and many were working mechanics. Neat mix.

While I'm definitely no smarter than before, nor am I a better wrench (always improving, I hope), I do have an even greater respect for Mx professionals...and I have an expanded list of references with which to look stuff up now. As Paul said, the responsibility and breadth of info provided some good humility.

Just sharing all that to give you context...and I'd encourage you to go for it.

Cheers,
Bob

 

[jrs14855]

Before the Christen Eagle, most EAB's were welded steel tubing, wood, fiberglas, fabric covering etc. In other words the builder built 95% of the aircraft from scratch. In that era is was very common for a builder to qualify for an A&P based on one airplane. Then it went the other way and has only recently returned to where SOME FSDO offices will consider an EAB aircraft for experience. I am still building plans built, built from scratch tube wood and fabric airplanes.

 

[Bavafa]

Thank you all for the info and encouragements.
And especial congratulations to Bob on his news cert.

 

[rvmills]

Thank you all for the info and encouragements.
And especial congratulations to Bob on his news cert.

Thanks very much! Two condition inspections coming up in the next several months. While I've been doing all of the prep and servicing on condition inspections for several years now, these will be the first that I sign off. Still going to have the two IAs in our airpark check my work. One owns an RV, and the other...let's just say I'm slowly trying to win him over to the EAB cult...or at least not shaking his head at the mention of the word Experimental. It provides additional motivation to show how we can do it right!

Cheers,
Bob

 

[JonJay]

Glad to hear the FAA, at least in some areas, is willing to work with folks.
My attempt, years ago, was met with utter disdain from the FISDO, “building an experimental doesn’t count….”
I even had endorsements from well known AP/IA that I worked along side, etc….and that meant nothing to them.
Congrats Bob!
I hold the repairmen’s certificate for the RV and do my own work on the Bucker with more than one AP who knows me and my work and signs it off, so, no bother for me. However the course work and knowledge would have been great.
You’re more than deserving Bob. Fly up and sign off my Bucker next year Ha!
You can even fly it now that you’re Bucker checked out!

 

[flysrv10]

I was wondering if anyone knows if we our experience of building could be substitute for the work experience that is required for an A&P Cert. I have built three RVs and have been maintaining them for over 15 years now and it would be great if that will satisfy the work experience that is required.

Thanks in advance

Absoultley! The FAA has published the Directive (or whatever it is called) to allow for EXP aircraft building time to count as experience. Get in touch with your FSDO. Good luck.

 

[fl-mike]

I got my FSDO inspector to sign off the 8610-2 based on my years of re-building, building and maintaining my RV's and a MiniMax. At first he said "exp doesn't count", but I pointed him to the new guidance, he looked it up, and said "you are correct!". We chatted a bit about my background. I showed him my build-logs, build and rebuild photo logs. He was impressed and he signed me off (even fixing my application paperwork screwup). I have no interest in wrenching on heavy iron, am an avionics engineer, and am old..., so that probably helped too.
I'm heading off to Baker in January (even talked work into paying the tuition) and have been watching the King course off and on for a few years. Should be fun!
BTW, it took fooooreeeevvvvveeeer to get an appointment with the FSDO. When he told me I had the wrong form, I was like "oh crap!, back in line", but he went and printed out a the correct one and we filled it out together!

Just have all your logs and stuff in-hand. Make it easy for them to say "yes".

 

[rvmills]

Glad to hear the FAA, at least in some areas, is willing to work with folks.
My attempt, years ago, was met with utter disdain from the FISDO, “building an experimental doesn’t count….”
I even had endorsements from well known AP/IA that I worked along side, etc….and that meant nothing to them.
Congrats Bob!
I hold the repairmen’s certificate for the RV and do my own work on the Bucker with more than one AP who knows me and my work and signs it off, so, no bother for me. However the course work and knowledge would have been great.
You’re more than deserving Bob. Fly up and sign off my Bucker next year Ha!
You can even fly it now that you’re Bucker checked out!

JJ,

I'll see your offer, and raise you this ...c'mon out in Nov, help me with my condition inspection, give mine a good look over, and maybe teach me some good Bucker Mx stuff you've learned over the years), and I'll come up when yours is due and help you, and sign it off (it is EXP, right?). There might have to be a little flying of both planes involved too, eh!

With this new guidance, it'll be a slam dunk for you on the A&P!

If someone reading this with the link to the new guidance (fl-mike?) could post it, that would be great! Thx!

Cheers,
Bob

 

[fl-mike]

JJ,

I'll see your offer, and raise you this ...c'mon out in Nov, help me with my condition inspection, give mine a good look over, and maybe teach me some good Bucker Mx stuff you've learned over the years), and I'll come up when yours is due and help you, and sign it off (it is EXP, right?). There might have to be a little flying of both planes involved too, eh!

With this new guidance, it'll be a slam dunk for you on the A&P!

If someone reading this with the link to the new guidance (fl-mike?) could post it, that would be great! Thx!

Cheers,
Bob

https://drs.faa.gov/browse/excelExternalWindow/DRSDOCID125310001920230721133818.0001

7/20/23 8900.1 CHG 675

VOLUME 5 AIRMAN CERTIFICATION
CHAPTER 5 TITLE 14 CFR PART 65—AIRMEN OTHER THAN FLIGHT CREWMEMBERS
Section 2 Certificate Airframe and/or Powerplant Mechanic/Added Rating

Look at the change-bars.

 

[Pilot135pd]

I was wondering if anyone knows if we our experience of building could be substitute for the work experience that is required for an A&P Cert. I have built three RVs and have been maintaining them for over 15 years now and it would be great if that will satisfy the work experience that is required.

Thanks in advance

Go to one of those A&P training mills, there used to be one in Houston, Texas. Take their training for a few weeks and take the test. They'll give you all the info and hoops to jump through. I think you meet with the designated examiner before you start everything. It works.

 

[bob865]

Absoultley! The FAA has published the Directive (or whatever it is called) to allow for EXP aircraft building time to count as experience. Get in touch with your FSDO. Good luck

Any idea what to go google? I looked recently and was under the impression that build time was excluded.

 

[rvmills]

https://drs.faa.gov/browse/excelExternalWindow/DRSDOCID125310001920230721133818.0001

7/20/23 8900.1 CHG 675

VOLUME 5 AIRMAN CERTIFICATION
CHAPTER 5 TITLE 14 CFR PART 65—AIRMEN OTHER THAN FLIGHT CREWMEMBERS
Section 2 Certificate Airframe and/or Powerplant Mechanic/Added Rating

Look at the change-bars.

Thanks Mike, that is perfect! Will help a few friends starting the quest!

Cheers,
Bob

 

[bob865]

"NOTE: Experience, to include manufacturing experience and experience on
amateur-built aircraft, will be evaluated by the FAA based on the actual
experience obtained, to determine if the applicant has practical experience with
the procedures, practices, materials, tools, machine tools, and equipment generally
used in constructing, maintaining, or altering airframes or powerplants, as
required by § 65.77."

"D. Evaluating Experience. Aviation maintenance experience gained as a U.S. Military
service member, airframe or powerplant mechanic’s helper, foreign civilian or military aircraft
mechanic, or light-sport repairman/experimental amateur-built aircraft repairman will receive
evaluations on its own merits to determine whether it fulfills the experience requirements.
During the evaluation, the merits in each area that Flight Standards Service (FS) personnel must
pay special attention to are:.................
2) Civil experience. Applicants with civil experience, to include airframe and/or
powerplant mechanic’s helper experience, and applicants with experience maintaining/building
light-sport and/or amateur-built aircraft must have verifiable experience listed in 50 percent of
the subject areas of the Aviation Mechanic General, Airframe, and Powerplant Airman
Certification Standards (FAA-S-ACS-1) (i.e., the Mechanic Airman Certification Standards
(ACS)), as applicable to the rating sought. The timeframe for said experience must add up to
18/30 months for the rating(s) sought."

Here are two excepts from the 8900.1 that lists amateur built aircraft as experience for reference.

 

[flysrv10]

Any idea what to go google? I looked recently and was under the impression that build time was excluded.

My FSDO researched the "directive" before I showed up for the appointment. I recall, he told me that the information was just released and not public yet. This is as of two months ago.

I just googled "experimental aircraft credit for a&P license" and got the same answer you mention in your post. The first paragraph on the search, indicated that experience manufacturing of experimental airfare does not count but the experience afterward, maintaining exp aircraft counts. Not sure how old the article is.

I would email the FSDO and explain what your requested appointment is about.

They have a matrix of items to match with your logbook entry for the min requirements to take the exam. I believe having an existing Repairman Certificate helps them make the decision somewhat easier. Just my speculation since they asked for my repairman cert for my RV10. The new cert (if I pass the exam) will be under the same cert number as the RV10..

 

[rvmills]

Any idea what to go google? I looked recently and was under the impression that build time was excluded.

The link that Mike posted above took me right to it. The FAA Dynamic Regulatory System, which used to be called FSIMS (Flight Standards Information Management System...a term that still floats about in places), is the new bible for FAA Inspector Guidance. It is a huge monster. The Volume 5, Section 2 covers what we are discussing. Mike's recommendation to look at the change bars was solid...led me right to it.

Paragraph 5-1134 Eligible to Test has the key info. Some key takeaways:

- 5-1134 C. PRESENTING DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE. States that those not presenting certificates of graduation from a Part 147 school or of JSAMTCC Military equivalent experience must go through a FSDO to receive authorization. (Note: while I had heard that an endorsement from an IA you worked under was required, I worked directly with the FSDO inspector, and did not have any additional letters of recommendation from IAs).

- The first Note under that sub para C references experience on amateur-built aircraft, a key ref for approaching a FSDO inspector.

5-1134 D. EVALUATING EXPERIENCE. D. 2) is the next critical ref for amateur-built experience that the inspector will use. It discusses what the inspector needs to "see" in terms of experience.

In the FWIW category, what I did was, after meeting the inspector at the show, and him saying "send me a synopsis, and I'll take a look", I started with a letter to the FSDO inspector that included a list of the 4 aircraft I have owned, and under each aircraft included a bulletized list of maintenance, repair, alteration and inspection projects that I had done over the years. I used 15-18 projects from each plane. I built a dropbox folder of about 300 photos of those projects (with me doing work in the photos in many cases), in the same order as the list, and provided him the link. I don't know if he looked at the dropbox account or not, but after that he sent me the Form 8610-2. On that form, under Section III. RECORD OF EXPERIENCE, I listed "XX months of maintenance, repair, alteration and inspection" of XYZ aircraft. There are 3 blocks in that section on that form, so the first three aircraft went on the form, and the 4th went on an additional sheet. On that additional sheet, I also included a spreadsheet of those various projects that broke each project down into months, or portions of months, of equivalent full time work on each project. In the end, it added up to 44 months (I think I was accurate and perhaps conservative...my wife says it was a lot more time in the hangar than that ).

Build time may perhaps be presented in a similar fashion, and build logs will be great supporting documentation for initial approach to an inspector, I would imagine. Each case will likely be slightly different, based on the combination of experience.

Hope this helps and encourages others here!

Cheers,
Bob

 

[rvmills]

"NOTE: Experience, to include manufacturing experience and experience on
amateur-built aircraft, will be evaluated by the FAA based on the actual
experience obtained, to determine if the applicant has practical experience with
the procedures, practices, materials, tools, machine tools, and equipment generally
used in constructing, maintaining, or altering airframes or powerplants, as
required by § 65.77."

"D. Evaluating Experience. Aviation maintenance experience gained as a U.S. Military
service member, airframe or powerplant mechanic’s helper, foreign civilian or military aircraft
mechanic, or light-sport repairman/experimental amateur-built aircraft repairman will receive
evaluations on its own merits to determine whether it fulfills the experience requirements.
During the evaluation, the merits in each area that Flight Standards Service (FS) personnel must
pay special attention to are:.................
2) Civil experience. Applicants with civil experience, to include airframe and/or
powerplant mechanic’s helper experience, and applicants with experience maintaining/building
light-sport and/or amateur-built aircraft must have verifiable experience listed in 50 percent of
the subject areas of the Aviation Mechanic General, Airframe, and Powerplant Airman
Certification Standards (FAA-S-ACS-1) (i.e., the Mechanic Airman Certification Standards
(ACS)), as applicable to the rating sought. The timeframe for said experience must add up to
18/30 months for the rating(s) sought."

Here are two excepts from the 8900.1 that lists amateur built aircraft as experience for reference.

Adam was quicker (and less wordy, with better quotes), than me

Cheers,
Bob

 

[Rallylancer122]

As others have pointed out, there was recent rule interpretation allowing E-AB work to count towards you A&P. Absolutely got get it! it was hands down the best aviation related decision I ever did.

That being said, as others have also pointed out, do not underestimate how varied and wide the scope is, and how difficult the tests are. Keep in mind that most people go to school for 2 years to get this knowledge, or amass 3500 hrs of experience. This isn't like getting a private pilot's license (40 hours) or a commercial license (200 hours). It's more like getting an ATP rating (1500 hours).

I have a lot of ratings... commercial helicopter, fixed wing, multi, instrument, seaplane (that one was useless), blah-blah-blah. The A&P was easily the most difficult one to get, and by far the most rewarding.

 

[roadrunner20]

Received my 8610-2 sign off from my FSDO this week. Not sure yet how I’m going to approach it, but, I wanted the permission slip in hand. I had submitted portions of my builder log & some condition inspections. The FSDO followed up with a 45 minute zoom meeting interview along with a Q&A.

 

[rockyfatcat]

I have been a full time A&P/inspector for over 25 years working mostly on big boy jets with a healthy sprinkling of regional/corporate equipment. I have worked for airlines, manufacturing, MRO’s, on aircraft modifications, and at component overhaul facilities. Right now I only work on my certified aircraft and my -7 project.

I understand that you getting your A&P ticket frees you up to perform conditional inspections on your aircraft and for others.

The thing that comes to mind about issuing an A&P to a experimental builder is that individual is capable of accepting full time employment as a mechanic in the field and missing some of the experience and training make an incorrect modification of a certified aircraft by not recognizing effectivity by serial number or model.

In the experimental world we can make or modify anything we like. If the certified world, EVERYTHING is I can prove thatI can do this here__________! Because simple replacement with a non specified part or substitution with a similar but unapproved part is not good. It may or may not be the kind of mistake that costs lives.

Remember that rules in this industry are written in the blood of people killed by the mistakes of others.

 

[Rallylancer122]

Received my 8610-2 sign off from my FSDO this week. Not sure yet how I’m going to approach it, but, I wanted the permission slip in hand. I had submitted portions of my builder log & some condition inspections. The FSDO followed up with a 45 minute zoom meeting interview along with a Q&A.

Excellent! Next I would recommend tackling the writtens. There's 3: General, Airframe, and Powerplant. I downloaded a 2500 question bank from Dauntless and just started running through questions an hour a night. Most I knew but the ones I didn't know keyed me in on areas I needed to learn more about. Not just for the writtens, but in general. There may be better question banks or prep software out there now (this was 10 years ago), but the point is that there is value in prepping for the writtens as you'll learn a lot in the process, particularly what you don't know. For me it was jet engine stuff.

Once the writtens are done then you can practice a little (riveting is really the only "skill" you might get tested on, everything else is general wrenching and inspections), and go for the practical/oral. Call the DME ahead of time and ask him what to expect. They won't tell you everything...it's a test afterall... but they'll give you an idea. Plan on 2-3 days for the practical and oral. Yes, days not hours. My exam was heavy on inspection.

Alternatively there are some prep schools. Bakers comes to mind, and we send a lot of guys from work down there. The schools are a good option if the bulk of your experience is in one area and you need to bone up on the other stuff. For example, lots of guys coming out the military only know helicopters, or jet engines. Many have never timed a mag. But if you've been working on GA aircraft regularly, and built/maintained an RV, it's probably not necessary.

 

[Bcone1381]

Personal Computers were not widely used when I took my last written test. At age 17 I barely I passed with a 72 using books and self study and a test guide with just questions and answers. No one taught me how to prepare. Later I started using a guide that presented a small amount of information on a topic then asked maybe 15 questions on the topic. So I would read the text, then read the questions and only the right answeres while asking myself if I understood why it was right.

I'd go through the guide a second time in the same fashion. The third time I'd look over all the quesitons. Results after preparing this way were 99 or 100% every time. No class, no software. no travel. No hotel.

Those test guides are inexpensive options and have a place. Look for this format in ASA test guide products.

 

[gyoung]

Personal Computers were not widely used when I took my last written test. At age 17 I barely I passed with a 72 using books and self study and a test guide with just questions and answers. No one taught me how to prepare. Later I started using a guide that presented a small amount of information on a topic then asked maybe 15 questions on the topic. So I would read the text, then read the questions and only the right answeres while asking myself if I understood why it was right.

I'd go through the guide a second time in the same fashion. The third time I'd look over all the quesitons. Results after preparing this way were 99 or 100% every time. No class, no software. no travel. No hotel.

Those test guides are inexpensive options and have a place. Look for this format in ASA test guide products.

I used the ASA books for the A&P writtens. The answer key is at the bottom of each page so I highlighted the correct answer on the first reading. Then expanded like you in subsequent readings. Worked great and high scores help with the O&P. Law of primacy really works.