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Cruising with flaps extended overspeed

Eriselle

Eriselle

Active Member
Patron
Hi, I’m … asking for a friend. Let’s say TOTALLY HYPOTHETICALLY that my friend flew for like 30 minutes after climbout like a giant dummy with the flaps extended to the first position, cruising at over 100 knots before noticing the problem. What, if anything, would need to happen after the flight to make sure that it is airworthy? Assuming there is no obvious external visible evidence of damage or fatigue.

Would this be more like a slap on the wrist bad bad bad don’t do that again or is this like go get an A&P immediately to inspect it internally and thoroughly?

I see a lot of people online saying they have done this, I wouldn’t want to overreact, but I wouldn’t want to underreact either.

Thoughts? Thank you!
 
Well, people have posted a blurb from Van's manual for RV-4,6,7 & 8's that says up to twenty degrees of flaps can be extended at 95 knots. That would be half flaps. There have been several posts here about this, so your hypothetical friend would clearly not be the first person to have done this.

With that said, an inspection of the extension rods is in order (at the least). You might want to do a search on VAF to find some of the discussions about this.
 
While there have been many reports of people doing this over the years we have to remember each of our aircraft are individually built and the level of competence varies between builders. As a minimum, the most responsible thing to do here is to carry out a visual inspection of your flaps and actuating components to ensure there are no obvious issues. If you find something you're concerned about then raise it with your engineer and have him look at it too.

You're not the first and certainly won't be the last to do this. I've inspected several RV's that have exceeded their flap speed and to date found nothing wrong with any part of the system. It's a little harder to do this with the manual flap system as you have a physical indication between the seats that your flaps are not fully retracted, and it is physically harder to deploy the flaps if you are going too fast. However the "fully manual" electric system (without fancy connections to EFIS systems) is much easier to get wrong as there is no "feel" back through a switch so it can be easy to deploy flaps when too fast or leave some flaps down and missread the flap indicator on the panel.

I'm guilty of having done the same - during one of my MAUW flight tests I must have knocked the flap switch to "off" before my flaps had fully retracted, leaving about 5 degrees still deployed. I didn't recognise this until 30 minutes into the flight while in the cruise, wondering why the IAS was slower than expected. Plenty of others have been there/done that... but inspect your flaps and the actuating system and satisfy yourself there is no damage before the next flight.
 
Last edited:
OK confession time
Just yesterday after doing a landing and mid field take off and up to cruise.
I'M GOING """What the &$^* is with my cruise speed?? wind? engine going south? I was.
NOPE
Well, now there it is the reason after looking out the window.
Flaps not fully retracted. Probably 10 degrees or so. Slid them back into place and flew on. Not worried about this, that, and whatever though
It happened and not the first time.
My luck varies and stuff happens. Art
 
kkerchmar said:
I really like that. I don't think I am allowed to make that change though because I have an SLSA RV-12. Out of curiosity, anyone know if the G3X Touch supports that alert?
Click to expand...

You have a legacy RV12 and it is SLSA? I didn't know they made them.
 
The latest version of the G3X touch software (9.22) allows you to set up a flap extension overspeed warning without the addition of any hardware/switches. See Section 29.4.32.27 Advanced Gauge Configuration and Appendix I of the G3X installation manual ver AS. I'm not sure if the software (9.22) can be installed on an SLSA without Van's approval.
 
Curious about the switchless G3X flap overspeed warning. Is that simply a warning that pops up based on airspeed and then goes away or does it need some pilot input?

I ask because a repeating warning that is not relevant can become so routine as to be ineffective.
 
rzbill said:
Curious about the switchless G3X flap overspeed warning. Is that simply a warning that pops up based on airspeed and then goes away or does it need some pilot input?
Click to expand...

There is no "switchless flap overspeed warning"... the system needs some means to determine flap position.
 
c4c67b said:
You have a legacy RV12 and it is SLSA? I didn't know they made them.
Click to expand...

Yep that's correct. Before Vans moved RV-12/RV-12iS SLSA production in-house, there were a relatively small number that were made by a third party company they contracted to do this officially. As far as I know, there were two batches of them created, something like 16 to 30 ish of them each batch IIRC, and I own one of them as the second owner.
 
The 12iS with Garmin avionics displays both flap position (in the 12iS they are electric) and airspeed. The latest software update 9.22 allows you to link the two so an alert will appear if the flaps are in an extended position above a user selectable airspeed.

The legacy RV12 with manual flaps requires a switch so the system knows the flap position.

The alert appears if the flaps are at >(user defined) extension (i.e. > 2 degrees) and the airspeed is >(user defined) knots (i.e. > 82 knots). Once these criteria are met, an alert will occur. If either criteria resolves, the alert will go away. In practice, if you forget to put up your flaps and accelerate through 82 knots, an alert will occur. Once you put up the flaps, the alert goes away.

Hope this is helpful. The G3X installation manual discusses this in great detail.
 
bernsbm said:
The 12iS with Garmin avionics displays both flap position (in the 12iS they are electric) and airspeed. The latest software update 9.22 allows you to link the two so an alert will appear if the flaps are in an extended position above a user selectable airspeed.

The legacy RV12 with manual flaps requires a switch so the system knows the flap position.

The alert appears if the flaps are at >(user defined) extension (i.e. > 2 degrees) and the airspeed is >(user defined) knots (i.e. > 82 knots). Once these criteria are met, an alert will occur. If either criteria resolves, the alert will go away. In practice, if you forget to put up your flaps and accelerate through 82 knots, an alert will occur. Once you put up the flaps, the alert goes away.

Hope this is helpful. The G3X installation manual discusses this in great detail.
Click to expand...

I wonder if there is any convincing Vans to formally allow the installation of such a switch in the legacy SLSA (like an optional notification letter or something). Anyone ever successfully push for a change like this?
 
bernsbm said:
The latest version of the G3X touch software (9.22) allows you to set up a flap extension overspeed warning without the addition of any hardware/switches. See Section 29.4.32.27 Advanced Gauge Configuration and Appendix I of the G3X installation manual ver AS. I'm not sure if the software (9.22) can be installed on an SLSA without Van's approval.
Click to expand...

I was curious to know more about this possible restriction on being able to update the G3X software, because I was actually about to just go and do that, because I didn't consider it might not be allowed. I'm really glad you alerted me to the concern. Thanks for that.

That said, I found a probable answer in the form of service bulletin from Vans:

https://www.vansaircraft.com/service-information-and-revisions/sb-00073/

This service bulletin refers you to Garmin's service bulletin:

https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=mZ0hr9x5wt2jpnoOGQ43a7

This Garmin service bulletin specifically states, "Update the G3X Touch unit software to 9.13 or later".

I would interpret this as documented authorization from Vans that updating to latest is acceptable.
 
bernsbm said:
The latest version of the G3X touch software (9.22) allows you to set up a flap extension overspeed warning without the addition of any hardware/switches. See Section 29.4.32.27 Advanced Gauge Configuration and Appendix I of the G3X installation manual ver AS. I'm not sure if the software (9.22) can be installed on an SLSA without Van's approval.
Click to expand...

How would this work, just based on airspeed? Would it warn you regardless of the flap position? The “additional hardware” is a switch that tells the computer the flaps are extended. If they are extended when the airspeed exceeds a value then an alarm is given.
 
Walt,
With a legacy RV12 installation of a switch is needed (as described in your blog, which is great, by the way). The RV12iS has electric flaps. The flap motor has a built in position sensor, output of which is shown on the PFD. In the Garmin G3X system with software ver 9.22, flap position can be linked to airspeed as described above.

Hope this clarifies.
 
I just wanted to address the initial question....full disclosure, I built my legacy ELSA RV-12 back in 2016-2017. At about the 150 hour mark, I was flying a fairly long cross-country and made a normal fuel stop. For normal takeoff, I use the first notch of flaps, then retract them when I am happy with initial climb (before exceeding 82KIAS). On climb-out, I was a bit distracted and forgot to retract my flaps. As I was leveling out at my cruise altitude and just over 100 KIAS, it was pretty obvious that something was wrong by the stick pressures. I finally glanced at the flap handle!! While calling myself a few unkind names, I retracted the flaps and things were back to normal.

I had the same concern....did that 5-10 minutes at 100 Kts cause any damage to the system? We RV-12 pilots should take special care of our flaps because they just so happen to also be our ailerons!! When I got home, I did a thorough inspection of the flaperons, including all the hinge brackets, the actuation brackets, torque tubes and linkages, the mixer bellcrank and every rivet involved. Happy to report no damage found and I have a strategic new placard that I can't miss if I'm looking forward (Vfe 82Kts). Hope this helps.

Paul
 
I'm curious why you use one notch of flap for "normal" takeoff. I never use flap for hard-surface runway even near max gross weight and always use one notch of flap on grass. Small wheels need extra lift to get out of short grass strips....
 
Piper J3 said:
I'm curious why you use one notch of flap for "normal" takeoff. I never use flap for hard-surface runway even near max gross weight and always use one notch of flap on grass. Small wheels need extra lift to get out of short grass strips....
Click to expand...

Your question reminds me of an inconsistency that I had noted the few times I’ve flown a legacy 12. Can’t believe the takeoff performance is much different between the ULS and iS, but the POHs for them are different regarding their normal takeoff checklists. The ULS POH clearly indicates normal takeoff with one notch of flaps, but not for the iS, except for soft & short-fished takeoff procedures. Interesting though that for the iS, Van’s tells us to raise the flaps after takeoff, but never to lower them beforehand. Possibly an artifact from a copy-paste POH creation for the iS, but they’re clearly different. Anyone know why?
 

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bernsbm said:
Walt,
With a legacy RV12 installation of a switch is needed (as described in your blog, which is great, by the way). The RV12iS has electric flaps. The flap motor has a built in position sensor, output of which is shown on the PFD. In the Garmin G3X system with software ver 9.22, flap position can be linked to airspeed as described above.

Hope this clarifies.
Click to expand...

The OP stated in post #5 “That is correct, and the legacy, not the iS to be more specific” that is why I responded.
 
Piper J3 said:
I'm curious why you use one notch of flap for "normal" takeoff.
Click to expand...

Good question Jim, it's just my personal preference. I feel it puts me in a better position if I have a problem immediately after takeoff. Obviously, I have a little less braking power if I have to abort before liftoff, but I'm comfortable retracting the flaps while braking if necessary. I want to say I have seen discrepancies in the 'normal' takeoff checklist over the years (regarding flap position). By all means, I would advocate that people use/adhere to the current version of Van's checklist for their make and model. Cheers :)
 
Vfe Exceedance Alert

bernsbm said:
The 12iS with Garmin avionics displays both flap position (in the 12iS they are electric) and airspeed. The latest software update 9.22 allows you to link the two so an alert will appear if the flaps are in an extended position above a user selectable airspeed.

The legacy RV12 with manual flaps requires a switch so the system knows the flap position.

The alert appears if the flaps are at >(user defined) extension (i.e. > 2 degrees) and the airspeed is >(user defined) knots (i.e. > 82 knots). Once these criteria are met, an alert will occur. If either criteria resolves, the alert will go away. In practice, if you forget to put up your flaps and accelerate through 82 knots, an alert will occur. Once you put up the flaps, the alert goes away.

Hope this is helpful. The G3X installation manual discusses this in great detail.
Click to expand...

Good Afternoon,

Here is some additional information for anyone who may be interested. Using G3X Touch Advanced Gauge Configuration to alert the pilot to a Vfe exceedance requires either a flap position sensor, or a dedicated discrete input which activates when the flaps are in the extended position ("Flaps Down" Discrete Input Preset).

In this example, we make use of a flap position sensor. When the aircraft is flown beyond than the installer configured airspeed threshold with the flaps extended, the flap position gauge is shown in red, and a flashing red Crew Alert Message is issued, alongside an audible alert.

agm 1.jpg

To create this alert, the existing flap gauge configuration can remain unchanged while a few new configuration items are set, as outlined below.

  1. Add a new gauge marking to the General Position Input that is configured for the flap position sensor, and assign it to an Invisible Range. Set the minimum and maximum to the desired range. In this example we will use 1-22 degrees. Change the mode to Set Logic Signal and select an unused Logic Signal number.

    step1.jpg
  2. Add a second new gauge marking to the same GP input, and assign it to Red Range + Alert. Set the Minimum and Maximum to the same range used in step 1. Change the mode to Require Logic Signal Set and select the same Logic Signal number used in step 1.

    step2.jpg
  3. From the Engine and Airframe configuration menu, touch the Settings tab at the top of the screen. Touch Logic Signals. Touch the Logic signal number used in steps 1 and 2. Assign an airspeed threshold as desired. In this example, we used 82 knots IAS. A delay can optionally be assigned, in this example we used a 5 second delay.

    step 3.jpg
  4. As a result of this configuration, the Vfe Exceedance alert will be active anytime the flaps are between 1-22 degrees and IAS is above 82 KIAS, with a 5 second buffer to avoid nuisance alerting.

This is a very specific example of how the advanced gauge configuration function can be used. Any of the parameters used above can be modified to meet an individual installers needs. Much more information is provided in the G3X Touch installation manual, Appendix I and Section 30.4.32.27 - Advanced Gauge Configuration. The latest installation manual can be downloaded here.

Thanks,

Justin
 
Advanced Flight EFIS has flap speed alert

Someone mentioned that the Garmin panel will alert you to flap overspeed. Just for comparison/fairness, I want to point out that the AFS EFIS will as well. Speeds are configurable. Aural and visual notifications.

I cannot speak to current Dynon panelware, perhaps someone else knows. Dynon adopts most of AFS's good ideas, so I bet they do.
 
Justin, Is there a way to implement this when using a VPX to handle the flap positioning?

g3xpert said:
Good Afternoon,

Here is some additional information for anyone who may be interested. Using G3X Touch Advanced Gauge Configuration to alert the pilot to a Vfe exceedance requires either a flap position sensor, or a dedicated discrete input which activates when the flaps are in the extended position ("Flaps Down" Discrete Input Preset).

In this example, we make use of a flap position sensor. When the aircraft is flown beyond than the installer configured airspeed threshold with the flaps extended, the flap position gauge is shown in red, and a flashing red Crew Alert Message is issued, alongside an audible alert.

View attachment 45177

To create this alert, the existing flap gauge configuration can remain unchanged while a few new configuration items are set, as outlined below.

  1. Add a new gauge marking to the General Position Input that is configured for the flap position sensor, and assign it to an Invisible Range. Set the minimum and maximum to the desired range. In this example we will use 1-22 degrees. Change the mode to Set Logic Signal and select an unused Logic Signal number.

    View attachment 45178
  2. Add a second new gauge marking to the same GP input, and assign it to Red Range + Alert. Set the Minimum and Maximum to the same range used in step 1. Change the mode to Require Logic Signal Set and select the same Logic Signal number used in step 1.

    View attachment 45179
  3. From the Engine and Airframe configuration menu, touch the Settings tab at the top of the screen. Touch Logic Signals. Touch the Logic signal number used in steps 1 and 2. Assign an airspeed threshold as desired. In this example, we used 82 knots IAS. A delay can optionally be assigned, in this example we used a 5 second delay.

    View attachment 45180
  4. As a result of this configuration, the Vfe Exceedance alert will be active anytime the flaps are between 1-22 degrees and IAS is above 82 KIAS, with a 5 second buffer to avoid nuisance alerting.

This is a very specific example of how the advanced gauge configuration function can be used. Any of the parameters used above can be modified to meet an individual installers needs. Much more information is provided in the G3X Touch installation manual, Appendix I and Section 30.4.32.27 - Advanced Gauge Configuration. The latest installation manual can be downloaded here.

Thanks,

Justin
Click to expand...
 
mikerkba said:
Someone mentioned that the Garmin panel will alert you to flap overspeed. Just for comparison/fairness, I want to point out that the AFS EFIS will as well. Speeds are configurable. Aural and visual notifications.

I cannot speak to current Dynon panelware, perhaps someone else knows. Dynon adopts most of AFS's good ideas, so I bet they do.
Click to expand...

Yup - Dynon indeed announces flaps over speed in the out of the box config. Heard it yesterday in fact.
 
In my case, I have a classic RV12 ELSA with a dual Dynon avionics suite.
To get a FLAP OVERPEED alert, I added a switch on the mixer as shown by Walt on his website (https://waltsrv12.com/avionics/flap-overspeed-warning/).
I ran one wire from switch to ground & the other to the EMS connector pin 10 and values change in the SENSOR DEBUG DATA for C37 P10 as I raise/lower the flaps.
I've failed (in a not very systematic way) to get the Dynon HDX "programming" correctly set to give the aural alert above Vfe.
So wondering if the Dynon Sensor file (SENSOR_XXX.SFG) needs to be edited & reloaded and/or if the Sensor setup (in EMS SETUP) as CONTACT or POSITION or ??
Please Obe-Wan, help this doofus, walk me through it step by step.

P.S. I loaded the latest Dynon version 17.1 to check out the Emergency Glide feature.
First impression - it holds glide speed better than I can !
 
Eriselle said:
I really like that. I don't think I am allowed to make that change though because I have an SLSA RV-12. Out of curiosity, anyone know if the G3X Touch supports that alert?
Click to expand...
You are correct. With an S-LSA you may not make any changes without written permission from the manufacturer.
 
GatorsR1 said:
In my case, I have a classic RV12 ELSA with a dual Dynon avionics suite.
To get a FLAP OVERPEED alert, I added a switch on the mixer as shown by Walt on his website (https://waltsrv12.com/avionics/flap-overspeed-warning/).
I ran one wire from switch to ground & the other to the EMS connector pin 10 and values change in the SENSOR DEBUG DATA for C37 P10 as I raise/lower the flaps.
I've failed (in a not very systematic way) to get the Dynon HDX "programming" correctly set to give the aural alert above Vfe.
So wondering if the Dynon Sensor file (SENSOR_XXX.SFG) needs to be edited & reloaded and/or if the Sensor setup (in EMS SETUP) as CONTACT or POSITION or ??
Please Obe-Wan, help this doofus, walk me through it step by step.

P.S. I loaded the latest Dynon version 17.1 to check out the Emergency Glide feature.
First impression - it holds glide speed better than I can !
Click to expand...
The sensor data screen is “flaps retracted” C37-P9 “raw”= 4091 with the flaps anything away from retracted raw = 0. Hope that helps.
 

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I'm not sure about the other panel manufacturers' setups, but one thing the Dynon implementation doesn't seem to have that I'd like is the ability to set different speeds based on different flap positions.

My setup (Skyview HDX with a VP-X connected to the flap motor and a potentiometer position sensor) is able to display the continuous flap position on the PFD, but it only has one flap speed configurable. We have it set to the lowest limit (90mph for 30° in the -9), but that means it pipes up every flight when I put out 10° below 100mph. Good to know it's working, I guess, but I worry a bit about alert fatigue.
 
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