Electrogunner
Well Known Member
Seems pretty soon we will have to sign a waiver if we use any aftermarket part on the plane
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Appears Vans not allowing Sky Design Wing Tank ER Mod
- Thread starter jpkindred
- Start date
Seems pretty soon we will have to sign a waiver if we use any aftermarket part on the plane
They might as well make it for every kit they sell, there is always after market parts, I would bet every plane built has something after market.
Just got off the phone with Vans
They are "hoping" to have the form ready this week. The form will make us sign that that these items:
T-1004-L Fuel Tank Rib, Left
T-1004-R Fuel Tank Rib, Right
Will not be used for Extended Range fuel tanks, once we sign this form they will be released.
The lady did say that they have them in stock and that a lot of people are waiting for them.
They are "hoping" to have the form ready this week. The form will make us sign that that these items:
T-1004-L Fuel Tank Rib, Left
T-1004-R Fuel Tank Rib, Right
Will not be used for Extended Range fuel tanks, once we sign this form they will be released.
The lady did say that they have them in stock and that a lot of people are waiting for them.
KatanaPilot
Well Known Member
So you will be forced to lie about why you are buying the parts.
Not acceptable in my opinion.
It just gives Vans plausible deniability in todays litigious environment.
I can completely understand their position, especially after weeks of threads here on VAF screaming about the 7 rudder being inadequate and needs "fixing" and people trying to armchair quarterback the engineering.
I can completely understand their position, especially after weeks of threads here on VAF screaming about the 7 rudder being inadequate and needs "fixing" and people trying to armchair quarterback the engineering.
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I'm suprised that in this long thread - nobody has suggested to just fabricate a couple ribs & get on with it.
Copy the shape from ribs you already have to melamine boards, cut & route the edges, sandwich a piece of aluminum in between & pound out your ribs! You have fluting plyers don't you?
Oh, sorry, you have to drill some holes.....
Copy the shape from ribs you already have to melamine boards, cut & route the edges, sandwich a piece of aluminum in between & pound out your ribs! You have fluting plyers don't you?
Oh, sorry, you have to drill some holes.....
Lol. You read my mind. Sounds a whole lot easier than stressing about paperwork and getting under the skin of the manufacturer unnecessarily.
But alas times have definitely changed.
KatanaPilot
Well Known Member
Sorry, not buying this. If you can buy an RV-4 or 8 tail/wing kit and then go build a Rocket without signing a similar form - then your argument just doesn't make sense.
Fabricating a rib is beyond my skill set. I know some people that can do this in their sleep and I suspect Ken can do it or have it done as well. He shouldn't have to.
I've seen no evidence that this is really a legal or engineering concern. I think someone high up at Van's has a bee in their bonnet about Ken Krueger and this action is targeted directly at him. I hope I'm wrong.
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EAA teaches this to 12 year old kids at their summer camp.
I'm just an RV-12 'assembler' as people around here like to say, and would think the average -10 builder could figure out making a rib.
I'm just an RV-12 'assembler' as people around here like to say, and would think the average -10 builder could figure out making a rib.
Vans contract
Hopefully the waiver from Vans won’t make you lie or deceive Vans on your intentions to use the ribs. Something like the builder agrees that these parts are the sole responsibility of the builder if used in a manner that Vans expressively documents would be enough “legalese” unless they are targeting the third party supplier which hopefully they are not. We need our third party suppliers !! They have improved our builds and let our experimental skills expand. (Aveo wing tips, improved flap motor design, Beringer wheels, brakes, anti locks and even pressure sensors, ignitions that don’t require mixture controls, Earth X batteries, improved canopy locking systems, and on and on.
Hopefully the waiver from Vans won’t make you lie or deceive Vans on your intentions to use the ribs. Something like the builder agrees that these parts are the sole responsibility of the builder if used in a manner that Vans expressively documents would be enough “legalese” unless they are targeting the third party supplier which hopefully they are not. We need our third party suppliers !! They have improved our builds and let our experimental skills expand. (Aveo wing tips, improved flap motor design, Beringer wheels, brakes, anti locks and even pressure sensors, ignitions that don’t require mixture controls, Earth X batteries, improved canopy locking systems, and on and on.
PilotjohnS
Well Known Member
Not all the same
Not all ribs are the same. Some planes use ribs from sheet aluminum formed over a bucking block. But i believe Vans use hydro formed ribes that are then heat treated. The forming part is easy, it is the heat treating that is hard.
Not all ribs are the same. Some planes use ribs from sheet aluminum formed over a bucking block. But i believe Vans use hydro formed ribes that are then heat treated. The forming part is easy, it is the heat treating that is hard.
Un-tempered 2024-t0 is used in some hydroform production runs & would need tempering after. You can hydroform simple shapes with tempered 2024-t3 but use techniques like notching the flange & fluting to finess complicated shapes to perfect bends (as RV builders had to do oh so few years ago… yes how times have changed!)
My suggestion doesn’t need hydroform processes, but simple rubber Malloy & form blocks… using the most basic sheet metal forming techniques working with 2024-t3 tempered sheet NOT requiring complicated processes - & it is truly regretful that some current ‘assemblers’ feel this work is beyond their reach.
My suggestion doesn’t need hydroform processes, but simple rubber Malloy & form blocks… using the most basic sheet metal forming techniques working with 2024-t3 tempered sheet NOT requiring complicated processes - & it is truly regretful that some current ‘assemblers’ feel this work is beyond their reach.
Consider this as an opportunity for a (side) business and help those "assemblers"
KatanaPilot
Well Known Member
Going further off topic -
Ralph, I admire your skills and abilities. For assemblers like me, one of the appeals of a pre-punched kit was it better fit my skills and abilities. I really admire the builders of early Van’s kits and especially others who do plans built airplanes.
One of the justifications stated by Van’s for this new policy over the ER tanks were concerns about engineering. It seems to me that a builder/assembler fabricating ribs out of treated aluminum (and we need 7 each for left and right tanks) might compromise the strength of the ribs versus use of -O aluminum that is heat treated after forming. In other words - will the homemade ribs be equivalent in strength and fatigue life as the factory ribs? I doubt it.
Continuing my dead horse beating - this wouldn’t even be an issue if Van’s hadn’t decided to implement a policy directed at a single third party vendor…
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My misunderstanding, I assumed you intended to swap out the skins for longer ones, add a couple ribs and longer rear baffle, this would be my path to get on building (and have done on my current 6 when 6 ribs were discontinued & 7 ribs didn't quite fit). Just thought I had a suggestion to get the group moving forward.
Good luck on your legalese quest.
Good luck on your legalese quest.
No, No. My new quest is 'the art of turning business away, learning to say no.'
greghughespdx
Well Known Member
To start, I'd like to state clearly that this is not a single-vendor situation or concern. Everything below applies in a general sense. It just so happens that this thread is the one where discussion is currently taking place around what is importantly a more-general topic.
Over time we've seen a number of changes from a variety of sources to portions of the RV airplane designs that carry higher levels of risk - and that's what's predicated publication of the service letter that's linked below.
We've published a letter (SL-00062) warning builders/owners/operators about the potential risks associated with untested design changes to RV aircraft. Whether making a single change or a set of cumulative/additive changes, in the interest of safety we want to ensure that people understand and accept the risks associated with their departures from the kit plans. Some aircraft structure/systems changes inherently carry greater risk than others, and it's important that people understand and think about their planned changes in context.
That said: the Experimental Amateur-Built category certainly allows builders and owners to experiment and make changes that vary from the kit aircraft design, and in some way each aircraft is unique. When ordering parts from Van's Aircraft or other parties and using them in a manner for which they were not intended by the company's design, we want to make sure the customer understands clearly that fact any modifications they plan have not been evaluated or tested by Van's and that by selling parts to a customer we can't and don't review or approve of their use. In other words, the person making the modifications is on their own and should be certain they understand the risks and impacts on various important elements of design such as stresses, structure, operational systems, etc.
Generally speaking, as we've observed both kit builders and owners of flying aircraft making significant changes, at times we've noticed people making combinations of changes which prompted us to question whether the person making changes had thought about the overall impact to risk and safety. It's this class of concern that leads us to publish the below-linked letter in an attempt to communicate information to customers. We're not saying "no," but we are communicating information that we deem important - especially when our parts and materials are used in customizations.
Broadly, and this is not a complete list by any means, here are a few of the general categories of potentially riskier changes that come up from time to time:
Link to: SL-00062
Where applicable, we will include a copy of the letter in shipments of our parts to customers to help prompt proper customization analysis, and we plan to communicate important concerns and things to consider in future articles concerning modifications, as well.
Thanks everyone.
Over time we've seen a number of changes from a variety of sources to portions of the RV airplane designs that carry higher levels of risk - and that's what's predicated publication of the service letter that's linked below.
We've published a letter (SL-00062) warning builders/owners/operators about the potential risks associated with untested design changes to RV aircraft. Whether making a single change or a set of cumulative/additive changes, in the interest of safety we want to ensure that people understand and accept the risks associated with their departures from the kit plans. Some aircraft structure/systems changes inherently carry greater risk than others, and it's important that people understand and think about their planned changes in context.
That said: the Experimental Amateur-Built category certainly allows builders and owners to experiment and make changes that vary from the kit aircraft design, and in some way each aircraft is unique. When ordering parts from Van's Aircraft or other parties and using them in a manner for which they were not intended by the company's design, we want to make sure the customer understands clearly that fact any modifications they plan have not been evaluated or tested by Van's and that by selling parts to a customer we can't and don't review or approve of their use. In other words, the person making the modifications is on their own and should be certain they understand the risks and impacts on various important elements of design such as stresses, structure, operational systems, etc.
Generally speaking, as we've observed both kit builders and owners of flying aircraft making significant changes, at times we've noticed people making combinations of changes which prompted us to question whether the person making changes had thought about the overall impact to risk and safety. It's this class of concern that leads us to publish the below-linked letter in an attempt to communicate information to customers. We're not saying "no," but we are communicating information that we deem important - especially when our parts and materials are used in customizations.
Broadly, and this is not a complete list by any means, here are a few of the general categories of potentially riskier changes that come up from time to time:
- Changes that potentially impact the structural integrity of the airframe (overstress structural failure, long term fatigue)
- Changes that modify critical systems for which a failure is considered especially critical (fuel, electrical, controls, ignition, etc.)
- Changes that impact weight, balance, loading, and stresses imposed on the airframe
- Other changes that affect aerodynamics and handling (performance, stability, spin resistance, flutter etc.)
- Changes that result in the aircraft operating beyond the design limits and into the engineering safety margin
Link to: SL-00062
Where applicable, we will include a copy of the letter in shipments of our parts to customers to help prompt proper customization analysis, and we plan to communicate important concerns and things to consider in future articles concerning modifications, as well.
Thanks everyone.
So now that SL-00062 has been published, will the T-1004-L & T-1004-R ribs ship to those of us who have placed orders?
greghughespdx
Well Known Member
Yes, they're shipping.
WAIVER AND RELEASE OF LIABILITY AGREEMENT
Since I've paid for and received most parts for the 10 I requested Vans send me the Bill of Sale for the FAA forms. I'm not a lawyer but the requested WAIVER AND RELEASE OF LIABILITY AGREEMENT that Vans wants me to sign before sending me the BOS has to protect them from any kind of misuse or even proper use of Vans parts sent to me short of an meteor strike or alien invasion and even those incidents would hold Vans not liable. It would appear before they would send a bill of sale to a builder (without this you will not be able to register your airframe with the FAA) you must sign this and would release Vans from any potential liability. I don't blame Vans for doing this and if I was them would be doing the same. There are to many litigious people out there looking to pass the buck. Since we are experimental builders we must understand the risks. I'm not sure what paperwork I would need if I sold an experimental but I would start with the Vans release as framework. It's written well.
Since I've paid for and received most parts for the 10 I requested Vans send me the Bill of Sale for the FAA forms. I'm not a lawyer but the requested WAIVER AND RELEASE OF LIABILITY AGREEMENT that Vans wants me to sign before sending me the BOS has to protect them from any kind of misuse or even proper use of Vans parts sent to me short of an meteor strike or alien invasion and even those incidents would hold Vans not liable. It would appear before they would send a bill of sale to a builder (without this you will not be able to register your airframe with the FAA) you must sign this and would release Vans from any potential liability. I don't blame Vans for doing this and if I was them would be doing the same. There are to many litigious people out there looking to pass the buck. Since we are experimental builders we must understand the risks. I'm not sure what paperwork I would need if I sold an experimental but I would start with the Vans release as framework. It's written well.
ER TANKS
I use my beloved RV10 for mostly X Country and from Arlington, Wa. KAWO, we fly to Idaho, and our second home in the mountains just east of puerto Vallarta, and other trips (This plane is an absolute joy to fly). I am building an rv14 and expeccct to have it done sometime next year and met with Ken and his wife and business partner as they dropped the supplies by. Y house a few weeks ago. Very knowledgeable and helpful people and since then my wife and i have decided to do some surgery and add the ER tanks on our beloved rv10.
We find the simple features such as no extra fuel cap, no extra pump and nothing to screw around with my Aveo wing tips and lights. I have no difficulty with sitting in our plane for more than 4 hours, my wife doesn’t always accompany me, and after just under 1200 HOBBS since i completed my build in sept 2015, i feel this is something i should have done long ago. The problem was that a system like kens didn’t exist so i am glad to have met Ken and his partner Susan.
Thor McIlrath
KAWO RV10 BUILDER since 2015
Paid dues about one or two years ago and will get on paying again.
I use my beloved RV10 for mostly X Country and from Arlington, Wa. KAWO, we fly to Idaho, and our second home in the mountains just east of puerto Vallarta, and other trips (This plane is an absolute joy to fly). I am building an rv14 and expeccct to have it done sometime next year and met with Ken and his wife and business partner as they dropped the supplies by. Y house a few weeks ago. Very knowledgeable and helpful people and since then my wife and i have decided to do some surgery and add the ER tanks on our beloved rv10.
We find the simple features such as no extra fuel cap, no extra pump and nothing to screw around with my Aveo wing tips and lights. I have no difficulty with sitting in our plane for more than 4 hours, my wife doesn’t always accompany me, and after just under 1200 HOBBS since i completed my build in sept 2015, i feel this is something i should have done long ago. The problem was that a system like kens didn’t exist so i am glad to have met Ken and his partner Susan.
Thor McIlrath
KAWO RV10 BUILDER since 2015
Paid dues about one or two years ago and will get on paying again.
I already have the Safeair ER tanks installed in my wings. The Safeair tanks hold around 14 gallons total and along with the mains, giving me around 73.5 gallons of usable fuel.
The sky design tanks provide 82.5 gallons usable. The sky design tanks increase the MTOW by the additional amount of fuel they add, or around 135lbs. The maximum landing weight remains unchanged at 2700lbs. They eliminate the fuel transfer pumps in the wings. I really wanted to do the retrofit. It was a tough decision, but in the end, I could not justify the expense of the retrofit, around $4K including paint, for just an additional 9 gallons of fuel.
If I were building from a new kit, there would be no doubt I would build with the Sky Designs tanks. The existing tanks just don't provide enough fuel to allow the option to run ROP vs LOP for very long with a reserve.
I have over 1400 enjoyable hours in my RV10. It's a great x-country platform. I can't think of another aircraft out there that can accomplish what this plane does.
The sky design tanks provide 82.5 gallons usable. The sky design tanks increase the MTOW by the additional amount of fuel they add, or around 135lbs. The maximum landing weight remains unchanged at 2700lbs. They eliminate the fuel transfer pumps in the wings. I really wanted to do the retrofit. It was a tough decision, but in the end, I could not justify the expense of the retrofit, around $4K including paint, for just an additional 9 gallons of fuel.
If I were building from a new kit, there would be no doubt I would build with the Sky Designs tanks. The existing tanks just don't provide enough fuel to allow the option to run ROP vs LOP for very long with a reserve.
I have over 1400 enjoyable hours in my RV10. It's a great x-country platform. I can't think of another aircraft out there that can accomplish what this plane does.
At this stage (finished, painted, flying), I'm not doing a wing tank mod.
But the airplane (IMO) begs for 10-15 gallons more fuel. I'd like 4 COMFORTABLE hours plus a one hour reserve. By the time you taxi out, take off and climb to altitude, 4 hours of cruise plus reserves is a stretch.
But the airplane (IMO) begs for 10-15 gallons more fuel. I'd like 4 COMFORTABLE hours plus a one hour reserve. By the time you taxi out, take off and climb to altitude, 4 hours of cruise plus reserves is a stretch.
Double fuel tanks ?
Hi All,
In South Africa there is a company selling completed RV-10s with 120 gallons of fuel cappacity as standard, without apparently compromising the space in the airplane.
I presume this is by having a double fuel tank on the leading edges of the wings, so anything is possible I guess.
If you built an airplane with such extended tanks. Provided the weight and balance at flight were in spec and there is no proof of the modification altering the structural integrity of the airplane, then there should be no problem.
Perhaps Vans should investigate this and provided there is no down side, offer a second fuel tank for each wing as an optional extra to increase or maybe even double fuel cappacity?
Hi All,
In South Africa there is a company selling completed RV-10s with 120 gallons of fuel cappacity as standard, without apparently compromising the space in the airplane.
I presume this is by having a double fuel tank on the leading edges of the wings, so anything is possible I guess.
If you built an airplane with such extended tanks. Provided the weight and balance at flight were in spec and there is no proof of the modification altering the structural integrity of the airplane, then there should be no problem.
Perhaps Vans should investigate this and provided there is no down side, offer a second fuel tank for each wing as an optional extra to increase or maybe even double fuel cappacity?
KatanaPilot
Well Known Member
Ken at Sky Designs has created a very elegant design for RV-10 and 14 ER tanks.
His experience as a former Van's engineer provided me with the confidence that these tanks were properly engineered and all aspects were considered. The documents for both the tank construction and wing modifications are very detailed and thorough. There are separate documents for new build versus already built wings. Ken also created an in-depth Engineering Report covering areas of concern such as structural impact, flying qualities and safety.
If I were building a new 10 or 14, this modification would be top of the list without a second thought. Even modifying a flying airplane isn't beyond the reach of most homebuilders. Judging by the number of kits/tanks/airplanes being built or modified at Synergy Air South right now - this design was a home run.
His experience as a former Van's engineer provided me with the confidence that these tanks were properly engineered and all aspects were considered. The documents for both the tank construction and wing modifications are very detailed and thorough. There are separate documents for new build versus already built wings. Ken also created an in-depth Engineering Report covering areas of concern such as structural impact, flying qualities and safety.
If I were building a new 10 or 14, this modification would be top of the list without a second thought. Even modifying a flying airplane isn't beyond the reach of most homebuilders. Judging by the number of kits/tanks/airplanes being built or modified at Synergy Air South right now - this design was a home run.
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I don’t care what other people think and hopefully Ken and his wife are able to set aside the supplies necessary to get the RV10 retro fitted for the ER tanks. They will make life much easier for my long trips.
If Ken ever gets around to engineering a de ice system, ill be all ears regards to that too.
Thor
If Ken ever gets around to engineering a de ice system, ill be all ears regards to that too.
Thor
Since it is now fairly clear that Vans DOES allow the Sky Designs Wing Tank ER Mod, I wonder if a moderator might change the title of this long thread so it more accurately characterizes the situation?
Or maybe this thread should be closed, and start a new thread for people interested in, or working on, the Wing Tank ER Mod.
Or maybe this thread should be closed, and start a new thread for people interested in, or working on, the Wing Tank ER Mod.
jerseypilot83
Active Member
sky design rv 10 er tanks
I read through these posts and I too agree with Ken knowing what he is doing being a previous Vans rv10 engineer. I do not think he would risk any safety or try any shortcuts. Reputation is very important. The aviation community is also pretty small.
So with above being said....
I just finished my tailcone kit and decided to do the Sky Design's ER tanks. I researched it for several days. I just placed my order and should arrive in 2-3 weeks accorinding to Susan. SUPER EXCITED
It should give me non stop service to Miami FL from FWN.
DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT I CAN SELL THE BRAND NEW FRESHLY BUILT STANDARD VANS TANKS FOR?
Be well everyone and SAFETY IS THE MOST IMPORTANT MEASURE!
HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO EVERYONE
I read through these posts and I too agree with Ken knowing what he is doing being a previous Vans rv10 engineer. I do not think he would risk any safety or try any shortcuts. Reputation is very important. The aviation community is also pretty small.
So with above being said....
I just finished my tailcone kit and decided to do the Sky Design's ER tanks. I researched it for several days. I just placed my order and should arrive in 2-3 weeks accorinding to Susan. SUPER EXCITED
It should give me non stop service to Miami FL from FWN.
DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT I CAN SELL THE BRAND NEW FRESHLY BUILT STANDARD VANS TANKS FOR?
Be well everyone
and SAFETY IS THE MOST IMPORTANT MEASURE!HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO EVERYONE
RailDriver
Member
Ordering a wing kit and looking to order the T-1004-L, R extra ribs, they are not listed in the store. How and where did those that ordered these do it?
jerseypilot83
Active Member
You have to call Vans and have the parts department add them to your shopping cart. That’s what I did.
RailDriver
Member
Thanks, I'll try them tomorrow.
Timinfla2
Active Member
Just to confirm is this the right website? https://www.skydesigns.aero
I went there today and I sent in a request order form for a retrofit RV10 kit. There's also a phone number and email address but it's Sunday and I figure nobody needs to talk to me today, haha.
I went there today and I sent in a request order form for a retrofit RV10 kit. There's also a phone number and email address but it's Sunday and I figure nobody needs to talk to me today, haha.
Yep! That's the one. I sent a request to them yesterday for the list of parts to delete and add to the standard RV-14A wing kit and got a reply today. Great service!
jerseypilot83
Active Member
Yes that is the correct site. I purchase my kit for RV10 and I am currently about halfway done. I am doing the new wing kit version. If anyone needs assistance with the ER tanks feel free to message me and I will send my number. I also have a you tube channel and I have one or 2 ER tank videos uploaded. Please subscribe and I will be posting everything I do over the next couple weeks.
My YouTube handle is Jerseypilot83
My YouTube handle is Jerseypilot83
jerseypilot83
Active Member
Awesome my man. Glad your kit is coming tomorrow. If you see my signature line, follow my YouTube channel and check out my build log.
How far along are you on your build? Ordered engine yet??
I will be going to AirVenture to meet the Vans crew.
How far along are you on your build? Ordered engine yet??
I will be going to AirVenture to meet the Vans crew.
Timinfla2
Active Member
Still rigging flight surfaces/controls. It's taking forever because I'm having to fabricate things that I'm sure are around somewhere like the rudder cable links and flap torque tube bushings...
