[tenacious9]

As a new builder of a Vans airplane with $70k spent so far without a rivet driven yet, it would absolutely be my problem if Vans goes bankrupt over this.

"Vans apologist" or not, we need to work together to get through this. I'm doing my part by being patient and trusting Greg, Rian and the rest of the Vans team to make the right decisions moving forward.

Yes fair enough. I wrote heaven forbid because that would be a horrible and very unwanted outcome. I worded it poorly. More correctly, I can only control what I do about these LCP. I can not control Vans. I'm not 70K into this, but I am about 50k. I won't be throwing good money at bad. Safety comes first. Second is peace of mind, I don't have to deal with these substandard parts in the future. Simply put if Vans no longer uses laser cut parts in the future than why would I build with them either.

 

[dstates]

Surprised that no one has mentioned the newly released Service Bulletin (SB-00043) for the RV10 and 14 elevators. Apparently cracks are appearing around the rivets (dimpled holes) on some skins. So I guess these kind of cracks are bad, although we may find out that cracks forming from dimpling LCP are ok.

Not the kind of news anyone wants right now and my airplane is at paint.

That is cruddy news. Looks like an additional reason for me to build all new elevators.

 

[Tlrguy]

Surprised that no one has mentioned the newly released Service Bulletin (SB-00043) for the RV10 and 14 elevators. Apparently cracks are appearing around the rivets (dimpled holes) on some skins. So I guess these kind of cracks are bad, although we may find out that cracks forming from dimpling LCP are ok.

Not the kind of news anyone wants right now and my airplane is at paint.

Geez. I knew nothing about SB00043. After looking at the documentation, it appears as if there is suppose to be a fillet of sealant between the elevator skin and rear spar!? That wasn’t in the plans for the -10 just one year ago!

How in the world do you add a fillet of sealant to the inside of an elevator after completion?

 

[bertschb]

Update has been posted:

https://www.vansaircraft.com/2023/0...impled-hole-cracking-on-some-laser-cut-parts/

 

[greghughespdx]

We have posted the following update on the Van's web site.

We anticipate that next week we will provide affected customers access to the web portal for requesting replacement parts. Customers will be presented with a list of laser-cut parts in each kit and will be able to specify which ones they need. We will also provide the ability to specify non-laser parts that are needed. As we've described in the past, laser-cut parts will be replaced with punched parts at no charge if requested. If a customer has punched parts that also need to be replaced, we will provide the opportunity to make that request and will display the discounted price of those parts on the portal.

The actual scope and volume of parts requested by customers will allow us to refine production schedules for requested parts, and from there determine shipping timeframes. From a business perspective, Van's will need to be shipping both replacement parts and new kits throughout this process, and we are dedicated to getting replacement parts to customers as soon as we are able. Once part volumes and timing are calculated from the requests we receive, we will be able to communicate more information to customers.

We will also be sending Quick Build customers a survey to collect information concerning their kits.

Our engineering team's testing process continues and significant progress has been made to include additional fatigue tests, finite element analysis, and destructive load tests. We will communicate additional information about the testing next week.​

 

[greghughespdx]

Geez. I knew nothing about SB00043. After looking at the documentation, it appears as if there is suppose to be a fillet of sealant between the elevator skin and rear spar!? That wasn’t in the plans for the -10 just one year ago!

How in the world do you add a fillet of sealant to the inside of an elevator after completion?

The details of that are covered starting with Step 5 in the service bulletin.

 

[Blw2]

I wonder, how is all of this affecting the timeline for the RV-15 development?

 

[Tlrguy]

The details of that are covered starting with Step 5 in the service bulletin.

Interesting. I’ll have to try reloading the SB. Didn’t see any guidance on how to perform the repair.

 

[Brantel]

Interesting. I’ll have to try reloading the SB. Didn’t see any guidance on how to perform the repair.

It’s there…..many pages in that pdf.

 

[bertschb]

Interesting. I’ll have to try reloading the SB. Didn’t see any guidance on how to perform the repair.

https://www.vansaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/SB-00043-RV-10-and-RV-14-Elevator-Cracks.pdf

 

[Jack_G_S]

What if we have completed SB kits? Pay to rebuild the entire thing or tough luck?

 

[dmattmul]

How do you know this?

This is no longer true. Google “Laser cut aerospace” and you will find lots of folks using lasers to cut parts. It would appear that the Sonex folks make extensive use of laser cut parts.

You have documented proof Sonex uses LCP for structural applications that require dimpling? Please document so we all will feel better. Start with non-dimpled parts for structural applications if you can't document dimpled parts.


Thanks

 

[dstates]

We have posted the following update on the Van's web site.

We anticipate that next week we will provide affected customers access to the web portal for requesting replacement parts. Customers will be presented with a list of laser-cut parts in each kit and will be able to specify which ones they need. We will also provide the ability to specify non-laser parts that are needed. As we've described in the past, laser-cut parts will be replaced with punched parts at no charge if requested. If a customer has punched parts that also need to be replaced, we will provide the opportunity to make that request and will display the discounted price of those parts on the portal.

The actual scope and volume of parts requested by customers will allow us to refine production schedules for requested parts, and from there determine shipping timeframes. From a business perspective, Van's will need to be shipping both replacement parts and new kits throughout this process, and we are dedicated to getting replacement parts to customers as soon as we are able. Once part volumes and timing are calculated from the requests we receive, we will be able to communicate more information to customers.

We will also be sending Quick Build customers a survey to collect information concerning their kits.

Our engineering team's testing process continues and significant progress has been made to include additional fatigue tests, finite element analysis, and destructive load tests. We will communicate additional information about the testing next week.​

As they have mentioned before, replacements for laser cut parts are provided at no charge. That can only mean that Vans covers shipping. They haven’t said anything specifically about shipping costs, but as I read it that would be covered.

Greg, can you confirm this?

 

[Tlrguy]

As they have mentioned before, replacements for laser cut parts are provided at no charge. That can only mean that Vans covers shipping. They haven’t said anything specifically about shipping costs, but as I read it that would be covered.

Greg, can you confirm this?

Confirm this for me too Greg,


Perhaps I didn’t understand correctly but do I need to purchase, for a second time, every non laser cut part required to rebuild my components?

 

[ragedracer1977]

So what of us that got kits without LCPs? They were just left out of my kit and marked back ordered? What do we do? Request replacements? Just wait?

I’ve yet to see this addressed.

 

[PCHunt]

Who's gonna be post #1000 ..... ?

Will they win a prize....??

 

[gotyoke]

So what of us that got kits without LCPs? They were just left out of my kit and marked back ordered? What do we do? Request replacements? Just wait?

I’ve yet to see this addressed.

Backordered parts will be auto-shipped to you, usually in one big shipment, when they are available. Do not request replacements. As for the priority for backordered larts, that may be worth asking.

 

[jliltd]

You have documented proof Sonex uses LCP for structural applications that require dimpling? Please document so we all will feel better. Start with non-dimpled parts for structural applications if you can't document dimpled parts.


Thanks

You and CessnaDog need not heed any Sonex advice. We have a quick build OneX kit sitting in the hangar that is a big old POS. Absolutely no comparison to a quality Van's kit. Sonex delivered QB parts assembled with snowman holes, undeburred before assembly and holes half drilled off parts (i.e. negative edge margin). They must have had 6" long drill bits and used every bit of it regardless of underlying structure, which they pierced. We are talking primary structure. It looked like they cut loose a third grade class to assemble the QB kit. I did a forensic write up of unairworthy, unacceptable and safety issues 30 pages long. The fellow who bought the kit would have never known about the shoddy deadly Sonex workmanship but the fancy carrier specializing in the transport of quick build kits who never damages kits en route actually damaged it en route and we had to do a damage assessment for a claim, including cutting open the stub wings.

This was 10 years ago so maybe Sonex has gotten better but to this day I take offense that they almost killed one of us.

So in the case of Sonex kits laser cut holes is a low level concern when placed next to the overall QB execution. Sonex (at least the Onex) QB kits are (or were) rendered a pile of scrap before leaving the factory.

The current Vans LCP issues while frustrating could be worse. I take solace in the fact we have the backing of the largest and most technically competent aircraft kit manufacturer in the world today. Nobody's perfect and in the end it is more important how a problem is dealt with than the problem itself. Think about the good will toward Superior after their unheard of IO-390 buyback program. We couldn't be in better hands than Vans and they are probably burning midnight oil sorting things out.

 

[bertschb]

...We couldn't be in better hands than Vans and they are probably burning midnight oil sorting things out.

I agree and thank you for posting this. Way too much negativity and speculation in this thread. Vans is a small company dealing with a very complex and costly issue. They are all working hard to make this right. I think a year from now we'll be complimenting Vans for the way they treated us.

 

[Tlrguy]

I agree and thank you for posting this. Way too much negativity and speculation in this thread. Vans is a small company dealing with a very complex and costly issue. They are all working hard to make this right. I think a year from now we'll be complimenting Vans for the way they treated us.

Am I going crazy here!? I will hold my thoughts until I see what “deep discount” means but, I’m pretty sure these guys want us, the customer, to cover the expense of this monumental screw-up.

 

[Mistfarer]

Am I going crazy here!? I will hold my thoughts until I see what “deep discount” means but, I’m pretty sure these guys want us, the customer, to cover the expense of this monumental screw-up.

They didn't say what "deep discount" means. It could be 99%. Even if it is "just" a 90% or even 75% discount, to me, it makes sense. I see this as a healthy protection mechanism.

If making claims is entirely free with no checks and balances, people might just tick everything and say "thank you Van's, please send me the whole kit" even if they don't actually need the parts. Whether it is "just in case" they screw up a part in the future, or because they fancy building a 2nd aircraft at a discount... I can see this scenario happening.

If it isn't free, at least people will think twice and only ask for replacement parts where they actually need them. It won't stop scammers from scamming, but it will help honest people do their due diligence and stay honest in their claims.

And ultimately: whatever happens, unless they get their money back through insurance/the factory that blundered the parts, my expectation is that the price will be paid by customers one way or another. Whether that is through a future price increase, or paid now... Van's is not a charity, and this will hurt them financially. However much this will hurt, I want them to stay in business.

 

[N82VM]

You won’t get a bill of sale from this “second” aircraft you mention. You have to purchase all kits (firewall forward kit is the exception) which you won’t have done. That theory is not valid.

 

[airguy]

So what of us that got kits without LCPs? They were just left out of my kit and marked back ordered? What do we do? Request replacements? Just wait?

I’ve yet to see this addressed.

If they are backordered, then they are still backordered waiting on non-lcp production.

 

[1001001]

Van's recent update states, in part:

...We anticipate that next week we will provide affected customers access to the web portal for requesting replacement parts. Customers will be presented with a list of laser-cut parts in each kit and will be able to specify which ones they need.

We will also provide the ability to specify non-laser parts that are needed.
...

Does anyone know if this only applies to parts shipped with a kit, or will they notify affected customers who purchased parts separately as well?

For instance, *if* it is determined that laser cut fuel tank ribs need to be replaced, will those of us who purchased a set of ribs from Van's in order to build a set of Sky Designs ER fuel tanks be included in this notification and replacement offer?

 

[KatanaPilot]

Van's recent update states, in part:



Does anyone know if this only applies to parts shipped with a kit, or will affected customers who purchased parts separately as well?

For instance, *if* it is determined that laser cut fuel tank ribs need to be replaced, will those of us who purchased a set of ribs from Van's in order to build a set of Sky Designs ER fuel tanks be included in this notification and replacement offer?

One data point - I bought tank ribs for Sky Designs ER tanks (and they may have been laser cut) - but was never notified by Van's of the possibility. I only found out due to VAF. So I suspect it's kit purchasers only (or at least it was for the initial notification months ago).

 

[Snowflake]

Way too much negativity and speculation in this thread.

If the rules were as clear about removing speculation from this thread as they were about removing it from an accident thread, this whole discussion would be a lot more pleasant to follow.

 

[Mistfarer]

If the rules were as clear about removing speculation from this thread as they were about removing it from an accident thread, this whole discussion would be a lot more pleasant to follow.

Assuming they read this thread, it is not entirely bad for Van's to see how upset people are and to collect the raw, unfiltered feedback.

 

[1001001]

One data point - I bought tank ribs for Sky Designs ER tanks (and they may have been laser cut) - but was never notified by Van's of the possibility. I only found out due to VAF. So I suspect it's kit purchasers only (or at least it was for the initial notification months ago).

I don't think they have determined whether laser cut tank ribs pose an issue requiring replacement yet--the engineering tests are still in progress.

 

[KatanaPilot]

I don't think they have determined whether laser cut tank ribs pose an issue requiring replacement yet--the engineering tests are still in progress.

Agreed, but they were on the code yellow list. Builders with kits that had these parts were notified. I only bought the affected ribs and was not.

 

[RV7A Flyer]

Vans is a small company dealing with a very complex and costly issue.

And they're learning a lesson in playing in the big leagues. Actually, several lessons, including how to do proper Quality Assurance as well as how to deal with a crisis.

They're technically a "small" business, but they employee something like 70 people and have revenues of $20M or so from what I found using the Googles. Not exactly "mom and pop" anymore, and these are things they *should* have learned long ago.

 

[ragedracer1977]

If they are backordered, then they are still backordered waiting on non-lcp production.

Are they? What’s a time frame like? Am I a year out waiting on parts? Should I box my kit back up and pack up my tools? Is it months? Weeks?

They’re currently making punched parts. Seems like they could give some kind of time frame. I’m really very interested in the statement Greg made that said they’re going to ship new kits and make back order or reorder people wait.

That really rubbed me wrong and really makes me wonder what I should do.

 

[Tom023]

I’m really very interested in the statement Greg made that said they’re going to ship new kits and make back order or reorder people wait.

That really rubbed me wrong and really makes me wonder what I should do.

From a business perspective, Van's will need to be shipping both replacement parts and new kits throughout this process, and we are dedicated to getting replacement parts to customers as soon as we are able.​

[/INDENT]

I don't think that is what Greg said at all, or at least in yesterday's communication.

 

[Mistfarer]

I’m really very interested in the statement Greg made that said they’re going to ship new kits and make back order or reorder people wait.

That really rubbed me wrong and really makes me wonder what I should do.

That is really not what Greg said.

From a business perspective, Van’s will need to be shipping both replacement parts and new kits throughout this process, and we are dedicated to getting replacement parts to customers as soon as we are able.

If Van's don't ship new kits, they can't claim the money from new customers, revenue collapses, and Van's closes shop. I understand that they have asked for money from some people without delivering, which has been frustrating. Obviously, they can't keep doing that and get away with it.

What I take from this sentence is two-fold.

1. Over the last few weeks, Van's have gained a full understanding, financially, as to the minimum new business they need to keep doing in order to sail through the storm without going bankrupt. This, to me, is extremely reassuring. It gives me the sense that they have somewhat regained control of the situation from a business standpoint. They did their homework, know what they are doing, and are sailing close to the wind financially.

2. Their next priority, after "do what it takes to stay alive", is to make things right for everyone, and do so at the fastest pace they can endure.

I don't see anything shocking in what Greg say, I fully understand where Van's is coming from, and I would do exactly the same thing if Van's were my business. What I don't understand is why people take issue with that... do you want Van's to go bankrupt? do you want them to reduce their costs/layoff their staff so we can get parts a few weeks sooner? I certainly don't...

 

[N82VM]

From the update “ Van’s will need to be shipping both replacement parts and new kits throughout this process”

Really??? new kits will be in the mix? You lost me there. Your current customers (already landed) aren’t priority over new kits. It’s not like I messed up a part and need a new one, that’s on me. VAN’S messed up the parts. Current customers are priority. Bull Stuff Flag on the field.

 

[bertschb]

From the update “ Van’s will need to be shipping both replacement parts and new kits throughout this process” Really??? new kits will be in the mix? You lost me there.

Vans is a business. Businesses need revenue if they want to stay in business. If they stop producing parts for new orders, they have no revenue stream. In that case, how will they pay staff to produce the replacement parts you're waiting for?

Some folks here (not referring to you @ N82VM ) seem to think Vans is an Apple or Exxon. They don't have billions in the bank to get through tough times. Plus, raising capital right now is very expensive because interest rates have risen so high. Vans needs to purchase very expensive new equipment, hire and train new employees, pay current employees overtime, manufacture and ship replacement LCP parts for free, sell non-LCP parts likely at cost. And who knows what with quick build kits? That will likely be extremely expensive to resolve. It will make replacements parts costs look cheap by comparison.

Vans will get this right. But, we all need to be PATIENT and give them the time they need to execute this plan correctly and fairly. It's in ALL of our best interests that Vans comes through this as a financially stable company.

 

[TheEnthusiast]

All valid points, but you know what else they need? Customers. Just saying...

 

[N8DAV8R]

All valid points, but you know what else they need? Customers. Just saying...

I have not been impressed with the mediocrity of Van's in the last few years, then this issue makes things worse. I still plan to build another one as soon as I decide what the heck to build and see the right timing.

I think they have customers.

 

[ragedracer1977]

I don't think that is what Greg said at all, or at least in yesterday's communication.

It is. How else can you put it other than that they’re not prioritizing people who have already put their money on the barrel?

I understand they need to sell new kits. But explain to me how a guy who hasn’t even ordered yet should receive a complete kit before I do, who put my money down a year ago? I’ll tell you this, I still need to order a fuse and wing kit. It’s awful hard to plunk down another 5 digits knowing that #1- I have no idea when I might be able to build anything and #2- knowing I might be taking parts from a guy that’s been waiting months.

Why not leave the parts out of new kits and back order those? Keeping everyone in line. They’re going to catch up.

I’m a business owner. I’m not talking from purely a consumer perspective here. I’ve been in these situations. I will always delay a new customer to take care of a customer who’s already paid me. It’s how I keep customers and earn the respect of new ones.

 

[jimbom]

From the update “ Van’s will need to be shipping both replacement parts and new kits throughout this process”

Really??? new kits will be in the mix? You lost me there. Your current customers (already landed) aren’t priority over new kits. It’s not like I messed up a part and need a new one, that’s on me. VAN’S messed up the parts. Current customers are priority. Bull Stuff Flag on the field.

They can do both. And why wouldn't they? Should they furlow their employees who aren't involved in replacing LCPs?

 

[ccarlson]

That is really not what Greg said.



If Van's don't ship new kits, they can't claim the money from new customers, revenue collapses, and Van's closes shop. I understand that they have asked for money from some people without delivering, which has been frustrating. Obviously, they can't keep doing that and get away with it.

What I take from this sentence is two-fold.

1. Over the last few weeks, Van's have gained a full understanding, financially, as to the minimum new business they need to keep doing in order to sail through the storm without going bankrupt. This, to me, is extremely reassuring. It gives me the sense that they have somewhat regained control of the situation from a business standpoint. They did their homework, know what they are doing, and are sailing close to the wind financially.

2. Their next priority, after "do what it takes to stay alive", is to make things right for everyone, and do so at the fastest pace they can endure.

I don't see anything shocking in what Greg say, I fully understand where Van's is coming from, and I would do exactly the same thing if Van's were my business. What I don't understand is why people take issue with that... do you want Van's to go bankrupt? do you want them to reduce their costs/layoff their staff so we can get parts a few weeks sooner? I certainly don't...

I know I certainly don’t want to see Van’s go bankrupt. Admittedly, I have struggled to keep an appropriate level of patience; however, that is a direct result of Van’s lacking or poorly executed communications strategy & failure to answer the simple shipping question that has been asked several times.

I appreciated Greg’s message yesterday - that was encouraging. And the need to generate fresh revenue while correcting things makes perfect sense.

 

[N82VM]

They can’t do both without slowing the rate that replacements are received.

10 new parts made. 5 go out to replacement customers and 5 to new kits. Meanwhile there’s 100+ replacement customers waiting.

Wouldn’t hurt a new kit FNG to wait. Whatever happened to seniority?

 

[bertschb]

I think all of the following could be considered "new" orders:

1- Orders with final payments that haven't shipped
2- Orders with deposits only
3- Orders that haven't been placed yet but could be tomorrow

 

[TheEnthusiast]

I have not been impressed with the mediocrity of Van's in the last few years, then this issue makes things worse. I still plan to build another one as soon as I decide what the heck to build and see the right timing.

I think they have customers.

Today they do, but tomorrow? A year? 5 years? Will they have enough customers to drive $20 mil in revenue and support 70 employees as previously mentioned?

People have long memories, and Van's is rapidly harming the reputation they spent decades building. People won't trust a company with a reputation of not taking care of it's customers, that's a hard truth. I'm saying this as a Van's supporter but also a business owner who's seen all sides of the spectrum.

Viking Engines, need I say more?

 

[gasman]

Page 100..... Is this a new record for VAF??

 

[jimbom]

They can’t do both without slowing the rate that replacements are received.

10 new parts made. 5 go out to replacement customers and 5 to new kits. Meanwhile there’s 100+ replacement customers waiting.

Wouldn’t hurt a new kit FNG to wait. Whatever happened to seniority?

While making LCP replacements at the maximum rate possible, they still have other processes happening that are producing A LOT of other components. Why would they just let other parts pile up, taking up valuable space (that they obviously don't have) and providing zero revenue? I have no problem with them skimming a reasonable portion of our replacement parts to keep a nominal number of new kits going out the door to keep the company afloat. Beats the heck out of the alternative.

Welcome to the real world.

 

[jimbom]

And they're learning a lesson in playing in the big leagues. Actually, several lessons, including how to do proper Quality Assurance as well as how to deal with a crisis.

They're technically a "small" business, but they employee something like 70 people and have revenues of $20M or so from what I found using the Googles. Not exactly "mom and pop" anymore, and these are things they *should* have learned long ago.

When it comes to kit planes, there is no bigger league. Not even close.

 

[deMan]

While making LCP replacements at the maximum rate possible, they still have other processes happening that are producing A LOT of other components. Why would they just let other parts pile up, taking up valuable space (that they obviously don't have) and providing zero revenue? I have no problem with them skimming a reasonable portion of our replacement parts to keep a nominal number of new kits going out the door to keep the company afloat. Beats the heck out of the alternative.

Welcome to the real world.

I fully agree with that.
Greg also didn’t say that kits they ship would be COMPLETE. They might very well ship kits with LCP on backorder. From current posts I’d say that’s what they are doing.
The only thing they might skim parts off for are QB containers to the assembly centers. And that’s ok for me because without parts I’m just bored - the people there would be unemployed.

-Lars

 

[2theskyy]

And the winner of the 1k post goes to…


You win a pre paid mostly, partially, somewhat lcp filled QB kit of your choice, full of many backordered parts(which might be shipped within a year). Now stick it in a storage location of your choice and finish it in ~15 yrs( just as many before you have done) and go enjoy you’re family, retirement, career, etc. until you get time, parts or the skills to build it.

This was produced in humor…

Enjoy the next 1k posts

Continue the beatings on Vans and each other.

 

[Mistfarer]

And the winner of the 1k post goes to…

The winner of the 1k post goes to me! Mwahahahahaha!

 

[2theskyy]

The winner of the 1k post goes to me! Mwahahahahaha!

Congrats Mate!!
Your QB(lcp series) will be on its way in a few months with only a full payment now(or you’ll lose your place in line) and the B.O. parts soon to follow in mid to late 2025 ish.

It’s only business my friend. Hope your grandkids enjoy your partially built RV once your long gone.