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TheEnthusiast said:
Today they do, but tomorrow? A year? 5 years? Will they have enough customers to drive $20 mil in revenue and support 70 employees as previously mentioned?

People have long memories, and Van's is rapidly harming the reputation they spent decades building. People won't trust a company with a reputation of not taking care of it's customers, that's a hard truth. I'm saying this as a Van's supporter but also a business owner who's seen all sides of the spectrum.

Viking Engines, need I say more?
Click to expand...

My opinion is that this won't have that kind of general long term impact. No intention at all to minimize how real this problem is for the people caught up in it, but it's a small subset of the customer base. I was frustrated by really poor performance by Van's during the '20-'22 years and this would be worse. At the same time I also know that a year from now there won't be any LCP to worry about and from a new build/customer perspective it will be in the rearview mirror. The LCP problem is well defined and has been mitigated aside from the affected.

People dream about building these airplanes for years before pulling the trigger. Some finish the airplane then plan and dream another couple years to do it again. Most of those people will see this as little speed bump. I would imagine there are a lot of people just waiting for the dust to settle.
 
N8DAV8R said:
I was frustrated by really poor performance by Van's during the '20-'22 years and this would be worse.
Click to expand...
Did the frustration really even register, given there was a global pandemic going on? Every company involved in any kind of manufacturing had supply chain issues at a minimum during that time. Add in employees forced to work from home, taking sick leave, retiring early, or just outright dying. I bet every one of us knows someone who didn't return to the workforce for one or more of these reasons.
 
LCP Replacement Privatization

I suggest we may be missing something important regarding prioritization of replacement parts.

I have three kits that have LCP (fuz, wing, emp). I don't need the replacement parts for all three kits at the same time. That is probably not the situation for most, but if Vans can provide some means for us to indicate what our priority needs are, and put the rest on a later schedule, it may help get needed parts in hands quicker.

In my case I was about to start work on my wings, and would like to get those parts first. I need to go back and figure out what I am going to do with the emp (95% complete). At this point, I think I will rebuild the effected structures. If I order all that, in addition to the fuz LCP replacements, all at the same time, I am just clogging the pipeline, and if I get those parts they will sit while I work on the wings.

The only concern could be the additional shipping, but I suspect Vans will be shipping groups of parts, and not necessarily looking to satisfy a full order before shipping anything.

Greg, thoughts?
 
Snowflake said:
Did the frustration really even register, given there was a global pandemic going on? Every company involved in any kind of manufacturing had supply chain issues at a minimum during that time. Add in employees forced to work from home, taking sick leave, retiring early, or just outright dying. I bet every one of us knows someone who didn't return to the workforce for one or more of these reasons.
Click to expand...

First of all, the failures went beyond supply chain issues. I had some terrible experiences with support and parts, and communication was down the tubes. I think the pandemic provided a convenient excuse for poorly managed growth. I also had my moments where I questioned their future and my ability to complete and support the airplane.

But that's all more to my point, really. What was a big deal to me because I was in the middle of it and it was *MY* airplane, didn't matter much in the big picture. I'm flying now and all that is behind me. It's a matter of perspective and future customers on the outside of this problem looking in, know that they won't get problematic LCPs.
 
People keep throwing around ~ 20 million in gross sales for Van's.

Since they are a private company, I would bet that this information is not available to public sources and anything you see online is just a WAG.

I also did some simple calculations based on their current finish and fly rate average of 1.5 aircraft per day and come up with around 25 million on airframe kit sales alone (assuming 10% of sales are QB kits, have no idea the true ratio). This was very non scientific but if you then add all the engine, prop, avionics, firewall forward, replacement part, and accessory sales on top of that, I bet it is much higher than 25 million.
 
And it doesn't really matter. It's still the only source for our kits.

Give them some patience and they'll get this done.

Dave
 
N8DAV8R said:
First of all, the failures went beyond supply chain issues..
Click to expand...

Agreed. At the same time period they claimed to not have the man power for communication they made several major changes that I believe would take many more man hours than Van’s has to execute correctly.
1. Moved their entire operation to a new facility.
2. Changed manufacturing style (the train system).
3. Added the Brazil quick build facility.
4. Changed the manufacturing method(LCP)
5. Added a significant number of third party vendors

At what point does it become egregious?
 
mstrauss said:
I suggest we may be missing something important regarding prioritization of replacement parts.

I have three kits that have LCP (fuz, wing, emp). I don't need the replacement parts for all three kits at the same time. That is probably not the situation for most, but if Vans can provide some means for us to indicate what our priority needs are, and put the rest on a later schedule, it may help get needed parts in hands quicker.

In my case I was about to start work on my wings, and would like to get those parts first. I need to go back and figure out what I am going to do with the emp (95% complete). At this point, I think I will rebuild the effected structures. If I order all that, in addition to the fuz LCP replacements, all at the same time, I am just clogging the pipeline, and if I get those parts they will sit while I work on the wings.

The only concern could be the additional shipping, but I suspect Vans will be shipping groups of parts, and not necessarily looking to satisfy a full order before shipping anything.

Greg, thoughts?
Click to expand...

This is exactly what they need to do. Even two levels of priority would be beneficial in appeasing the masses. I, for example, need only handful of parts to rebuild one wing and start/finish the second wing. A couple hundred hours of work at least could continue with minimal parts. The rest can wait and I suspect that that the whole LCP issue will be in the rearview by the time I need the next batch. No sense in stressing the supply chain to put parts on my shelf for the next year.
 
Jack_G_S said:
Agreed. At the same time period they claimed to not have the man power for communication they made several major changes that I believe would take many more man hours than Van’s has to execute correctly.
1. Moved their entire operation to a new facility.
2. Changed manufacturing style (the train system).
3. Added the Brazil quick build facility.
4. Changed the manufacturing method(LCP)
5. Added a significant number of third party vendors
Click to expand...

Holy ****, is this for real? Can someone else confirm it. And more importantly, does this coincide with Van stepping away from his major management roll. Not trying to cast aspersions just trying to wrap my head around this mess.
 
I strongly suspect they will continue to produce products in batches as they have been doing for a few years now. I would also think they would adjust batch sizes to accommodate both the LCP and new orders. With the potential exception of Empennage kit parts (Since that is where everyone starts) I can’t imagine a world where there is enough agreement in priority from builders to much alter that. Does my Fuselage preference get priority over your wing?

That said, if they can stick to their apparent recent routine of a batch of each part every 6 months I would hope that we are all complete within 8-9 months.

I think we REALLY need to see the testing so that builders can make informed choices about how much disassembly they want to do. Yes, some folks will remove EVERY LCP, others may choose which ones really need replaced based on the data. Opening the order portal before the data is out sets them up to be swamped with orders for parts that may in fact never get used. That is not idea for anyone.
 
Jack_G_S said:
Agreed. At the same time period they claimed to not have the man power for communication they made several major changes that I believe would take many more man hours than Van’s has to execute correctly.
1. Moved their entire operation to a new facility.
2. Changed manufacturing style (the train system).
3. Added the Brazil quick build facility.
4. Changed the manufacturing method(LCP)
5. Added a significant number of third party vendors

At what point does it become egregious?
Click to expand...

6. Added significant in-house punching capability.

Number 4 didn't go well, obviously, but the others were all good things they did to handle the explosive growth they encountered these past few years, all during a supply chain collapse. They were falling further and further behind. I'm not understanding anyone finding fault in those actions -- the lag in deliveries would be far worse and the disgruntlement would be growing exponentially, regardless of the LCP issue.
 
jimbom said:
..
Number 4 didn't go well, obviously, but the others were all good things they did to handle the explosive growth they encountered these past few years, all during a supply chain collapse. They were falling further and further behind. I'm not understanding anyone finding fault in those actions --..
Click to expand...
I wasn’t trying to say those changes couldn’t increase production capability. Just that any one of them would have taken significant resources to do correctly and they had problems with several of them that I know of. All QC issues.
1) quick build corrosion coating error
2) wing spar alodine issue
3) LCP cracking
 
David Paule said:
And it doesn't really matter. It's still the only source for our kits.

Give them some patience and they'll get this done.

Dave
Click to expand...

I’m all for patience. I’m probably the most patient guy you’ll meet, WHEN I’m kept informed.

I’ve fired many vendors over communication. I’ll pay more for the same product from someone who keeps me in the loop. I own and operate a business that sells a similar service as Van’s. It’s not airplane parts, but it’s a similar principal. My job is 100% to keep my customers happy. And I do that by never ever lying to them (not saying that’s the case here at all) and ALWAYS under promising and over delivering. When things go wrong, because they do, I will always address it head on. An informed customer is FAR better than a speculating one.

I’d be happy -right now- if I had an idea of time frame. Vans HAS to know how many parts are affected. They also have to know how long it would take to remake every single one of them. Will they have to remake them all? Who knows, but at this point it isn’t really relevant. I’d be totally satisfied if Van’s said it could be as long as a year to get my replacement parts. Because then I’d know I could just box my stuff up and hold on to it for a bit. I’d also start ordering the next kits I need.

Right now, we have no idea if it’s a week, a month, years? And that leads to threads and discussions like this. To where people who have never heard of Vans aircraft are now hearing about it and forming an opinion. That’s not ideal.
 
I just finished inventory on my empennage kit received 9/5/2023. There were zero laser cut parts included in my kit. There are 14 backordered parts, and I suspect those are waiting for manufacture of punched parts instead of shipping laser cut parts that would just need replacing.
 
I keep checking this thread periodically to see if there is any new information, or even any new insights, new ideas.

But no, it is just a continual re-hashing, re-thrashing, of the same thing.

Don't you guys get tired of the same gripes that contribute nothing to moving forward?

By now everyone understands the scope of the problem. Ongoing remarks that Van's will lose reputation because they wouldn't stand behind their product are pretty irrelevant in the light of Vans commitment to replacing any part that is asked. What to do with QB's that include LCP presents a spectrum of possibilities, and continued re-hashing of those, and the potential consequences of them, doesn't really accomplish anything. The title of the thread is "Factory Info..." But it would be impossible to find any factory info in the endless ocean of blather.

Seriously!

Can't we all just take a breath and wait for a while to see what comes out from the factory? The title of the thread is "Factory Info..." Wouldn't it be nice if this thread actually was reserved for that?
 
suggestion for moderators

suggestion for the moderators:

Would it be possible to set up a thread, titled "Factory Info: the LCP problem"
where ONLY the factory rep's could post in that thread, and then, have a second thread, titled "Everyone that wants to gripe about the LCP problem"?

Would that be possible?
 
scsmith said:
suggestion for the moderators:

Would it be possible to set up a thread, titled "Factory Info: the LCP problem"
where ONLY the factory rep's could post in that thread, and then, have a second thread, titled "Everyone that wants to gripe about the LCP problem"?

Would that be possible?
Click to expand...

I am sure it is technically possible; however, IMHO, that would defeat the entire point of a forum. Official factory information, again IMHO, should be sourced from the Van’s Aircraft website. This forum is a place for conversation and the sharing of ideas (including respectful kvetching and dissent) about the matter for and by registered participants.

Respectfully, if you aren’t interested in what folks have to say on the matter, you could simply click on through to the next thread…
 
ccarlson said:
...Respectfully, if you aren’t interested in what folks have to say on the matter, you could simply click on through to the next thread…
Click to expand...

Sure. Except I keep hoping to find some useful info, updates from Greg Hughes, the OP. Silly me.
 
scsmith said:
I keep checking this thread periodically to see if there is any new information, or even any new insights, new ideas.

But no, it is just a continual re-hashing, re-thrashing, of the same thing.

Don't you guys get tired of the same gripes that contribute nothing to moving forward?

By now everyone understands the scope of the problem. Ongoing remarks that Van's will lose reputation because they wouldn't stand behind their product are pretty irrelevant in the light of Vans commitment to replacing any part that is asked. What to do with QB's that include LCP presents a spectrum of possibilities, and continued re-hashing of those, and the potential consequences of them, doesn't really accomplish anything. The title of the thread is "Factory Info..." But it would be impossible to find any factory info in the endless ocean of blather.

Seriously!

Can't we all just take a breath and wait for a while to see what comes out from the factory? The title of the thread is "Factory Info..." Wouldn't it be nice if this thread actually was reserved for that?
Click to expand...

Um, griping about the griping, . . . . . is still griping!
Just saying. :)
 
Brantel said:
People keep throwing around ~ 20 million in gross sales for Van's.

Since they are a private company, I would bet that this information is not available to public sources and anything you see online is just a WAG.

I also did some simple calculations based on their current finish and fly rate average of 1.5 aircraft per day and come up with around 25 million on airframe kit sales alone (assuming 10% of sales are QB kits, have no idea the true ratio). This was very non scientific but if you then add all the engine, prop, avionics, firewall forward, replacement part, and accessory sales on top of that, I bet it is much higher than 25 million.
Click to expand...

I don’t have anything to add on the revenue guessing but 1.5 first flights a day make around 500 airframes a year.
In 2022 Piper made 167 trainer aircraft and 69 M-class, so 236 total.
https://www.piper.com/press-releases/piper-aircraft-sees-steady-growth-in-2022/
Cessna seems to have sold 151 172s.
https://flyer.co.uk/general-aviatio...us made a total of,the 172 with 151 delivered.
I’ve also read of a grand total of 3 bonanzas made last year.

Adding that all up the total is still less than the number of kits vans is shipping.

So looking at the production numbers of stressed skin aluminum aircraft, Vans is producing more parts per year than Piper and the GA arm of Cessna/Textron. I think that’s quite interesting. It shows that compared to the size of the company Vans has a very high production throughout and manufactures at a much larger scale than for example Piper.
 
deMan said:
I don’t have anything to add on the revenue guessing but 1.5 first flights a day make around 500 airframes a year.
In 2022 Piper made 167 trainer aircraft and 69 M-class, so 236 total.
https://www.piper.com/press-releases/piper-aircraft-sees-steady-growth-in-2022/
Cessna seems to have sold 151 172s.
https://flyer.co.uk/general-aviatio...us made a total of,the 172 with 151 delivered.
I’ve also read of a grand total of 3 bonanzas made last year.

Adding that all up the total is still less than the number of kits vans is shipping.

So looking at the production numbers of stressed skin aluminum aircraft, Vans is producing more parts per year than Piper and the GA arm of Cessna/Textron. I think that’s quite interesting. It shows that compared to the size of the company Vans has a very high production throughout and manufactures at a much larger scale than for example Piper.
Click to expand...

They also have a rather large volunteer workforce in the final assembly department.
 
scsmith said:
They also have a rather large volunteer workforce in the final assembly department.
Click to expand...

I’m probably the only one ignorant to your statement on this thread. Volunteer workforce for final assembly dept. at Vans?
i.e. Volunteers help build QB kits…
Can you expound?

Thank you
Sir
 
deMan said:
I don’t have anything to add on the revenue guessing but 1.5 first flights a day make around 500 airframes a year.
In 2022 Piper made 167 trainer aircraft and 69 M-class, so 236 total.
https://www.piper.com/press-releases/piper-aircraft-sees-steady-growth-in-2022/
Cessna seems to have sold 151 172s.
https://flyer.co.uk/general-aviatio...us made a total of,the 172 with 151 delivered.
I’ve also read of a grand total of 3 bonanzas made last year.

Adding that all up the total is still less than the number of kits vans is shipping.

So looking at the production numbers of stressed skin aluminum aircraft, Vans is producing more parts per year than Piper and the GA arm of Cessna/Textron. I think that’s quite interesting. It shows that compared to the size of the company Vans has a very high production throughout and manufactures at a much larger scale than for example Piper.
Click to expand...

That's very interesting insight. It really helps put things into perspective.

That said, I assume there is a difference between certified and non-certified parts - which is the reason why Van's aircraft are more affordable, and why crisis like the LCP things are happening (somehow I want to believe that this kind of mishaps are not even remotely a possibility in the certified world). Mind you - I am guessing and might be very naive, I have no idea what effort goes into the certification of parts.

It is a very insightful data point, but I am not entirely sure if this compares apples to apples?
 
2theskyy said:
I’m probably the only one ignorant to your statement on this thread. Volunteer workforce for final assembly dept. at Vans?
i.e. Volunteers help build QB kits…
Can you expound?

Thank you
Sir
Click to expand...

Us builders!

We'er the final assembly line, and we work for free!
 
2theskyy said:
I’m probably the only one ignorant to your statement on this thread. Volunteer workforce for final assembly dept. at Vans?
i.e. Volunteers help build QB kits…
Can you expound?

Thank you
Sir
Click to expand...

I believe this is a reference to the amateur builders buying the Vans kits. If you could buy a kit to build your own 182 at home under EAB, Textron would likely sell quite a few of those.
 
Mistfarer said:
That's very interesting insight. It really helps put things into perspective.

That said, I assume there is a difference between certified and non-certified parts - which is the reason why Van's aircraft are more affordable, and why crisis like the LCP things are happening (somehow I want to believe that this kind of mishaps are not even remotely a possibility in the certified world). Mind you - I am guessing and might be very naive, I have no idea what effort goes into the certification of parts.

It is a very insightful data point, but I am not entirely sure if this compares apples to apples?
Click to expand...

There's been far worse crisis in the certified world and the consumers ended up eating a lot of those. Metallurgical problems in crankshafts comes to mind.
 
jimbom said:
There's been far worse crisis in the certified world and the consumers ended up eating a lot of those. Metallurgical problems in crankshafts comes to mind.
Click to expand...

Lots of airframe ADs too. Think wing spars. They don't give the parts and you pay for labor in the Certified World.
 
2theskyy said:
I’m probably the only one ignorant to your statement on this thread. Volunteer workforce for final assembly dept. at Vans?
i.e. Volunteers help build QB kits…
Can you expound?

Thank you
Sir
Click to expand...

I was making the observation that WE build the airplanes from their parts. And yes, as another poster observed, we are not really volunteer, we get the earned equity in the assembled airplane. It probably does work out to about $10/hr.

Comparing our production workforce to the output of the assembly lines of Cessna, Piper, Mooney, etc. That has a lot to do with the price/cost difference.
 
scsmith said:
I was making the observation that WE build the airplanes from their parts. And yes, as another poster observed, we are not really volunteer, we get the earned equity in the assembled airplane. It probably does work out to about $10/hr.

Comparing our production workforce to the output of the assembly lines of Cessna, Piper, Mooney, etc. That has a lot to do with the price/cost difference.
Click to expand...

For whatever odd reason, I was thinking of a mechanic tech program for on the job training similar to a young eagles type program. I thought maybe Vans had that kind of program.

I totally missed your point but experimental has mostly been about sweet equity and the love of making things work with your own hands.
 
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jimbom said:
There's been far worse crisis in the certified world and the consumers ended up eating a lot of those. Metallurgical problems in crankshafts comes to mind.
Click to expand...

There are a whole bunch of things in the world that *aren't* certified and yet, they still have parts traceability and QA.

It's not a question of certified vs. not...it's good business, engineering and manufacturing processes vs. not.
 
deMan said:
I don’t have anything to add on the revenue guessing but 1.5 first flights a day make around 500 airframes a year.
In 2022 Piper made 167 trainer aircraft and 69 M-class, so 236 total.
https://www.piper.com/press-releases/piper-aircraft-sees-steady-growth-in-2022/
Cessna seems to have sold 151 172s.
https://flyer.co.uk/general-aviatio...us made a total of,the 172 with 151 delivered.
I’ve also read of a grand total of 3 bonanzas made last year.

Adding that all up the total is still less than the number of kits vans is shipping.

So looking at the production numbers of stressed skin aluminum aircraft, Vans is producing more parts per year than Piper and the GA arm of Cessna/Textron. I think that’s quite interesting. It shows that compared to the size of the company Vans has a very high production throughout and manufactures at a much larger scale than for example Piper.
Click to expand...

Van's is the only one that knows how many kits they sold in a year.

You quote a completed number per year of kits that have been sold over the past 25 years.... I didn't say 50 years because the sales were very low until the RV6/A was introduced in 1986.

Before the introduction of the match hole, the completion rate was low, and unfinished kits got sold over and over and many of those kits are being finished and added to the count today.
 
2theskyy said:
... experimental has mostly been about sweet equity and the love of making things work with your own hands.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say it's been particularly "sweet", but the equity sure has made me perspire.
;):p:rolleyes:
(JK, I agree 100% about the enjoyment, so far.)
 
jimbom said:
I wouldn't say it's been particularly "sweet", but the equity sure has made me perspire.
;):p:rolleyes:
(JK, I agree 100% about the enjoyment, so far.)
Click to expand...

So folks do read this thread. Hope the “right” folks will read through it as well.
 
jimbom said:
We work for equity. At my current rate of production, I'm looking at about $10/hr. ;)
Click to expand...

So if your time is worth $10/hr, you are ahead. But I had this conversation with a friend looking at a plane and a ~5 yr plan. Building an RV 10 or getting a cirrus. Not apples to apples although both planes fit his bill. When all said and done the sr22 was less expensive and dealing with certified AD’s and such rather than issues with issues such as lcp. Not a fair comparison, but the word is out and not for the good.
Does Vans care? Some say yes. Others say no

What say you, Vans.
 
2theskyy said:
So if your time is worth $10/hr, you are ahead. But I had this conversation with a friend looking at a plane and a ~5 yr plan. Building an RV 10 or getting a cirrus. Not apples to apples although both planes fit his bill. When all said and done the sr22 was less expensive and dealing with certified AD’s and such rather than issues with issues such as lcp. Not a fair comparison, but the word is out and not for the good.
Does Vans care? Some say yes. Others say no

What say you, Vans.
Click to expand...

I don’t buy it. For the price of that cirrus, I built my -10 and can fly it for the rest of my time, pass the airplane on to my son, and let him fly it for his time…and still not get to the cirrus price…
 
gasman said:
If you want the up to date facts, check in at this website daily....

https://www.vansaircraft.com/2023/0...impled-hole-cracking-on-some-laser-cut-parts/
Click to expand...

They don’t update it daily, but most of us probably check it daily. But they’ve paved a path forward, but no real timeline. It’s just frustrating that they are producing punched parts but it may be awhile before lcp owners will have those punched parts in hand. Most folks know the reality in this situation. It could be worse and Vans could tell us to take our lcp kits and put them in the corner with the boat anchor superior Crankshaft that might have received $750 for. So to give Vans credit; they will step up to some degree. Is it enough for some? That’s an individual answer. For me it’s simple. For others it is not.
This thread is about letting individuals discuss their situation so they can make a choice that’s best for them. So if it offends some, maybe don’t read this thread and certainly understand you might be telling someone to chill as you go out to the hanger and take a flight in your flying RV.
 
rocketman1988 said:
I don’t buy it. For the price of that cirrus, I built my -10 and can fly it for the rest of my time, pass the airplane on to my son, and let him fly it for his time…and still not get to the cirrus price…
Click to expand...

How many hours to build -10?
What is your time worth?
Don’t forget to add a parachute to you’re -10
I said not apples to apples but it’s a discussion I had talked about putting quality parts into a -10 to get a better $ comparison with a sr22(used, which does matter in this discussion).
But my point was that issues such as lcp does equate into decisions, for what it’s worth. Some say it does, others say it doesn’t.
 
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What’s your time worth ?

If one enjoys building it's priceless. If you want to do something else probably not worth it, go do something else. My guess is by the time you factor in 2,500 hrs and savings from conditionals every year in 20 years less depreciation on the Cirrus a 10 would come out ahead. A Cirrus is very expensive to maintain but one eliminates the “I built that” factor.
 
dmattmul said:
If one enjoys building it's priceless. If you want to do something else probably not worth it, go do something else. My guess is by the time you factor in 2,500 hrs and savings from conditionals every year in 20 years less depreciation on the Cirrus a 10 would come out ahead. A Cirrus is very expensive to maintain but one eliminates the “I built that” factor.
Click to expand...

Absolutely great points. Now add the lcp issue into the equation for what it’s worth to those affected. Or, the fact I won’t be able to get any welded parts for my RV plane for another year.

Maintenance on any plane is expensive. Your time or A&P/IA, again what’s your time worth? I enjoy building and working on my own planes, but I do, so knowing that it’s about the same ($ vs time) in the end.

I guess my point was that the lcp and/or backorder issues are involved in plane discussions now.
Time is $ and that’s part of this lcp issue.
 
rocketman1988 said:
I don’t buy it. For the price of that cirrus, I built my -10 and can fly it for the rest of my time, pass the airplane on to my son, and let him fly it for his time…and still not get to the cirrus price…
Click to expand...

You are much better at arithmetic than I. If you bring ~2500 build hrs up and take that out 3-4yrs to complete. If you work that same time instead of build on an RV, then add the kit/engine/prop/avnx etc. It adds up to 500k-1M. You can get a pretty good sr22 within that range.

There’s no guarantees in aviation, so either situation can take you down the money pit and broken dreams.

My point was time is $ and the lcp has taken time away from many builders. So I believe all potential builders take many factors into the plane discussion. Build vs buy. So when folks come on this thread to dismiss lcp kit owners time in this situation. It’s real and every builder knows it.
 
2theskyy said:
So if your time is worth $10/hr, you are ahead. But I had this conversation with a friend looking at a plane and a ~5 yr plan. Building an RV 10 or getting a cirrus. Not apples to apples although both planes fit his bill. When all said and done the sr22 was less expensive and dealing with certified AD’s and such rather than issues with issues such as lcp. Not a fair comparison, but the word is out and not for the good.
Does Vans care? Some say yes. Others say no

What say you, Vans.
Click to expand...

Nope, not buying it. Those numbers are not even close to reality for a brand new aircraft with those names tied to them.

If you want to claim the time "away from work" as additive to the equation, then I can go write a check for an SR22, and while doing that it took away from my time available to buy the winning powerball ticket. That SR22 just cost me a billion dollars. "Opportunity Cost" does not appear on any accounting spreadsheet.
 
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airguy said:
Nope, not buying it. Those numbers are not even close to reality for a brand new aircraft with those names tied to them.

If you want to claim the time "away from work" as additive to the equation, then I can go write a check for an SR22, and while doing that it took away from my time available to buy the winning powerball ticket. That SR22 just cost me a billion dollars. "Opportunity Cost" does not appear on any accounting spreadsheet.
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Didn’t say new cirrus but look at nice used ones. Your reality and mine must be very different.

My point was lcp kit owners time is worth $, $10/hr, maybe more but in current situation it’s $0/hr.

Talk about a different reality. Who’s ok with their time being worth $10/hr
Maybe this is why lcp kit owners are frustrated?
 
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