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Tlrguy said:
Such an insignificant dollar amount all things considered. I tallied up everything I need to remove LCP and it’s only 337 parts for a grand RETAIL total of $6100. If Vans only makes 10% on the sale of a full RV10 kit, they are still making money off my original purchase price. I already bought the parts once (and spent 700 hours building with affected parts), and don’t expect to buy anything a second time around. Call me crazy!?
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Not crazy. I totally understand the frustration and aggravation. If I read Vans statements correctly, Vans has said they will replace the LCPs at no cost and associated parts at a deep discount.

For builders like me, who have not invested a ton of time into a build and only have a handful of associated parts to replace, that is good news. For guys in your shoes, I imagine you feel quite differently because of the substantial amount of time invested and significant number of associated parts you may need to address.

For me, the biggest frustration is timely information flow. This thread will be two months old on Sep 4, and the issue first came to light as early as mid-May. I still don't know what to expect with regard to remediation timing. I am trying to remain patient. Truly.

Vans has said a fair bit about testing. I certainly don't mean to diminish the value of testing because testing is crucial for those who have deeply embedded LCPs in their project; however, I would like to know more about parts production and production timelines. If it will take 6-8 months or more, then so be it. I would just like to know what to expect so I may decide if I should a.) keep my tools and parts in my garage and at the ready, or b.) put them all away in storage for the six upcoming icy and cold winter months.
 
ccarlson said:
... I would like to know more about parts production and production timelines.
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I agree. The fact that RV-14 lead times were pushed out almost a year makes me think we won't see volume availability of replacement parts for at least another six months.
 
Brantel said:
Yeah but when was your QB shipped from the Philippines? Greg stated at Osh that there was no way for them to know what parts went into what QB after the containers arrived there. There was no guarantee that it was FIFO.

In my mind, any QB that shipped from the Philippines after the first LCP’s arrived there are suspect all the way up to when Vans told them to stop using them.
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This is my fear... That neither of my QB kits on order is LCP free... And I'll have to wait another year and a half...
 
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What worries me most is whether Van's have the ability to weather that storm or not. I think the last thing any of us want is for Van's to go bankrupt... Months of limbo where Van's are unable to ship parts, and therefore are unable to claim final payments from customers, can't possibly be good for their bottom line/cash flow... I really hope Van's will survive this.
 
Mistfarer said:
... Months of limbo where Van's are unable to ship parts, and therefore are unable to claim final payments from customers...
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They are still requesting final payments. I made the final payment for my tail kit in July (crickets) and final payment for the fuselage in August. Fuselage isn't scheduled for crating until Nov. So, they are keeping some cash flow although it will likely drop for new orders as people see the newly extended lead times (and laser cut parts issue) and possibly go in another direction.

We all have a vested in interest in making sure Vans survives this. That's why it's hard to read posts here where people are saying Vans needs to pay a penalty for causing this problem. IMO, they don't need any penalties beyond what it will cost them to remedy this laser cut parts issue. That alone will have a huge impact on their bottom line.
 
whether Van's have the ability to weather that storm
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They sure have the ability, as we, present and future customers, will finance it...
Simple economics.
In clear, they ...... (feel free to insert any VAF inappropriate past tense expletive), and we will pay for it :)

PS
Ever heard of an insurance company going bankrupt? Neither have I. Call it the law of economics...
 
Dan 57 said:
They sure have the ability, as we, present and future customers, will finance it...
Simple economics.
In clear, they ...... (feel free to insert any VAF inappropriate past tense expletive), and we will pay for it :)

PS
Ever heard of an insurance company going bankrupt? Neither have I. Call it the law of economics...
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There have been many insurance companies which have gone bankrupt. The Florida homeowners insurance market is in the process of going under now, with several companies having already filed and many others leaving the state for good ...
 
Dan 57 said:
They sure have the ability, as we, present and future customers, will finance it...
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Vans can only raise their prices so much to "finance" the laser cut parts problems. Prices have gone up so far in the last couple of years that I suspect any further price increases would really hurt sales - especially with the economy facing headwinds.
 
LCP first reported issue date

ccarlson said:
Not crazy. I totally understand the frustration and aggravation.

For me, the biggest frustration is timely information flow. This thread will be two months old on Sep 4, and the issue first came to light as early as mid-May. I still don't know what to expect with regard to remediation timing. I am trying to remain patient. Truly.
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I think the issue was known much earlier than mid-May 2023.
 
bertschb said:
They are still requesting final payments. I made the final payment for my tail kit in July (crickets) and final payment for the fuselage in August. Fuselage isn't scheduled for crating until Nov. So, they are keeping some cash flow although it will likely drop for new orders as people see the newly extended lead times (and laser cut parts issue) and possibly go in another direction.

We all have a vested in interest in making sure Vans survives this. That's why it's hard to read posts here where people are saying Vans needs to pay a penalty for causing this problem. IMO, they don't need any penalties beyond what it will cost them to remedy this laser cut parts issue. That alone will have a huge impact on their bottom line.
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While I've been less generous to Vans than some on this board, I don't want them to "pay a penalty" - I just want them to rip the band-aid off and deal with the full extant of the issue. They are spending a lot of time, money, and (indirectly) customer goodwill on the testing program which will not matter at all to the majority of affected buyers. Personally, I'd have preferred they focus first on replacements, and testing as required to support what can only be a few dozen completed aircraft with LCP. The rest of us are in various stages of construction and (IMO) are more interested in replacement.

The test program they are running is expensive - probably more than eating replacement LCP & attached parts for the couple hundred of us with paused builds.
 
Dan 57 said:
They sure have the ability, as we, present and future customers, will finance it...
Simple economics.
In clear, they ...... (feel free to insert any VAF inappropriate past tense expletive), and we will pay for it :)

PS
Ever heard of an insurance company going bankrupt? Neither have I. Call it the law of economics...
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AIG?

For what it's worth I get I have a vested interest in Vans' survival and if someone tells me pay 5k extra and we have QB wings ready for crating tomorrow with guaranteed zero LCPs I'll happily pay.
 
dmattmul said:
I think the issue was known much earlier than mid-May 2023.
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My bad - I should have been more clear. It first came to light for me in mid-May.

<break>

re: the post about penalties. I am not at all in favor of a penalty. I hope none of my posts have conveyed, suggested, or implied otherwise. I simply want the punched parts I was expecting when I ordered my kits and - most importantly - a clear idea of when they might become available.
 
Bullpup said:
While I've been less generous to Vans than some on this board, I don't want them to "pay a penalty" - I just want them to rip the band-aid off and deal with the full extant of the issue. They are spending a lot of time, money, and (indirectly) customer goodwill on the testing program which will not matter at all to the majority of affected buyers. Personally, I'd have preferred they focus first on replacements, and testing as required to support what can only be a few dozen completed aircraft with LCP. The rest of us are in various stages of construction and (IMO) are more interested in replacement.

The test program they are running is expensive - probably more than eating replacement LCP & attached parts for the couple hundred of us with paused builds.
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I don’t think any of us here want to see Vans fail, or pay disproportionately to the issue at hand. I hold Van’s Aircraft in high regard, and based on the past 50 years of amazing aircraft and kit design, I also hold them to the highest standard.

Come on Van’s Aircraft, let’s get some morally correct decisions made and get the people moving forward again.
 
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First they need to complete testing and assess the resulting parts schedule. Please don't assume that they they are needlessly delaying either replacement or formulating remedial measures. This is a major impact to them as well as us, and they need to work through it.

In other words - chill.

Dave
 
David Paule said:
...In other words - chill.
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Yep! We have a looooong wait ahead of us.

As much as I wanted to start my build in June when my tail kit was originally supposed to arrive, I don't think I'll have the parts in hand to start my build until next spring.
 
I ordered my RV-10 empennage kit 11/2022 - it will be delivered Tuesday, 9/5/2023. There are some back ordered parts, I suspect those are LCP parts awaiting replacements or at least completion of the testing. Hopefully none of them will hold me up, but I knew this was a marathon, not a sprint. Patience is the least appreciated and most underused trait in the world today IMHO.
 
If it was me, which it is not, I would be using some type of structural adhesive (like PS-870 class C sealant/adhesive or Hysol) during assembly to alleviate concerns of structural integrity. Available in extended cure times. It's what we used to use with the big iron. Put on with a roller it can be pretty thin, but does add a mess factor.
 
Walt said:
If it was me, which it is not, I would be using some type of structural adhesive (like PS-870 class C sealant/adhesive or Hysol) during assembly to alleviate concerns of structural integrity. Available in extended cure times. It's what we used to use with the big iron. Put on with a roller it can be pretty thin, but does add a mess factor.
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I did that using a different adhesive, for the fuselage of my RV-3B. The RV-3B is not a pre-punched kit and most parts are not cut to final size, so it's slow. And at that, the glue process about doubled the time to build. Future parts replacement, if needed, will be difficult at the very best. Please understand this if you decide to do it.

The mess factor isn't that great, with some routine care. Also note that there are non-obvious details which are quite important.

Dave
 
swift12 said:
So much conjecture.
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That's what happens when companies leave a communications void during any sort of crisis. *Especially* today, with all the social media, not communicating clearly, honestly, and often can have dire consequences to a company's reputation and, ultimately, bottom line.

I'm really surprised they haven't learned this.
 
swift12 said:
So much conjecture.
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There is. The only thing that will quell it will be definitive results/answers/plans from Van's. The problem there will be the people who aren't happy with Van's proposal/conclusions/offers.

So the ruckus will continue in a different form.
 
Bullpup said:
The fact is that the testing is spending money and time which, for the vast majority of impacted customers, would be better spent on communication and replacement parts. Does anyone disagree with this?
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Vans definitely needs to improve their communication. As mentioned many times in this and other threads, they are making the classic mistake of thinking less communication is better. If I was running Vans, I would require my staff to release weekly updates regardless of whether or not there was anything new to report. Not doing so is a major mistake on their part. Business Communication 101.

As for spending time and money on testing, I sort of disagree with you. I think there are many builders with completed or semi completed assemblies who do not want to start over. If testing shows no or a slight reduction in the lifespan of the assemblies, they may very well continue their builds with laser cut parts already installed. I think testing results would be critical for them. It certainly would be for me.
 
bertschb said:
As for spending time and money on testing, I sort of disagree with you. I think there are many builders with completed or semi completed assemblies who do not want to start over. If testing shows no or a slight reduction in the lifespan of the assemblies, they may very well continue their builds with laser cut parts already installed. I think testing results would be critical for them. It certainly would be for me.
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Fair enough - I'm skeptical (but hoping to be wrong!) that the testing will be sufficient to account for the variations in LCP and build quality present in the community, at least to the level required for eventual resale value retention, etc.

100% agree that it comes down to communication. We had a year and a half of engineering and supply chain errors alongside "trust us, build on." At the least, they'll need to explain the disagreement from prior guidance on cracks (specifically discouraging construction practices which may increase susceptibility; warned against not deburring dimpled holes in section 5 as it could increase likelihood of cracking, etc.) and offer very concrete inspection and acceptance guidance going forward.

That said, I recognize that I'm probably just letting the delay and uncertainty get to me. I'm eagerly looking forward to more information and a way forward, along with a timeline for replacement parts.
 
I think everyone wants a way forward now. Testing is one thing, but people want to move on with their builds.

What Im hoping is that Vans have used the last few months to really ramp up production of the affected parts across all kits. I really don't want to be told I can't start building until the spring because all the parts are on backorder.
 
Jonnyb said:
I think everyone wants a way forward now. Testing is one thing, but people want to move on with their builds.

What Im hoping is that Vans have used the last few months to really ramp up production of the affected parts across all kits. I really don't want to be told I can't start building until the spring because all the parts are on backorder.
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The problem is, I believe new kits going out the door will get parts priority and LCP replacement will not.

Simply because shipping new kits = revenue and shipping replacements ≠ revenue.
 
I recall at the Tuesday Airventure gathering Rian said the relative priority is to get parts to the QB centers as they can't 'afford' to let them go idle waiting for new kit parts to put together. From a business perspective there's logic to that and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what's going on already and one reason they have delayed opening up the portal for the rest of us.
 
Lucmac said:
I recall at the Tuesday Airventure gathering Rian said the relative priority is to get parts to the QB centers as they can't 'afford' to let them go idle waiting for new kit parts to put together. From a business perspective there's logic to that and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what's going on already and one reason they have delayed opening up the portal for the rest of us.
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That does make sense. The LCP part the QB centers need are the same one we all will need. Hopefully, they make a big enough batch of replacement parts to satisfy everyone.
 
Paul Thomas said:
That does make sense. The LCP part the QB centers need are the same one we all will need. Hopefully, they make a big enough batch of replacement parts to satisfy everyone.
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Sure seems like it would be easier to estimate the required quantity of replacement parts if they accepted orders from those of us who need replacements!
 
I would guess at this point they are waiting to take delivery of the new punch machines they said they are buying. After that they need to set them up and train staff. Production starts after that. It's gonna be many, many, MANY more months before there is widespread availability of replacement parts.
 
Maybe I have missed something, but did Vans ever tell us how we can definetely determine if the parts we got are LCPs?
The only thing I‘ve heard so far was the blue vinyl indicating it‘s a punched part, but I have several parts in my kits crated in the mentioned timeframes without the blue vinyl but no burning marks. Is there a chance that these parts are also punched? Would be very annoying for us to stop building for months if not neccessary at all.
 
flyingRV said:
Maybe I have missed something, but did Vans ever tell us how we can definetely determine if the parts we got are LCPs?
The only thing I‘ve heard so far was the blue vinyl indicating it‘s a punched part, but I have several parts in my kits crated in the mentioned timeframes without the blue vinyl but no burning marks. Is there a chance that these parts are also punched? Would be very annoying for us to stop building for months if not neccessary at all.
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They did:
https://www.vansaircraft.com/2023/0...impled-hole-cracking-on-some-laser-cut-parts/

and in particular: https://www.vansaircraft.com/wp-con...unched-Part-Identification-Key-with-edits.pdf
 
Not an update

Greg, as much as I'd like to feel a sense of relief that progress is being made, this is not an update. You've pointed us back to information that has been on your site for weeks. That update states that a new web site will be up in early September so that replacement parts can be ordered. I've been down for almost 2-months, and I expect that it will take a considerable amount of time after parts are ordered before they are available and shipped. I too would like to know what the plan is for bad parts already incorporated into the build, but most importantly, a timeline for when you actually expect to be able to move forward and provide replacement parts. Naturally I just purchased fuel sealant and the expiration date is quickly approaching. Any chance we can get the mandatory "replace" parts soon (like fuel tank baffles)?
 
14A DK said:
Greg, as much as I'd like to feel a sense of relief that progress is being made, this is not an update. You've pointed us back to information that has been on your site for weeks. That update states that a new web site will be up in early September so that replacement parts can be ordered. I've been down for almost 2-months, and I expect that it will take a considerable amount of time after parts are ordered before they are available and shipped. I too would like to know what the plan is for bad parts already incorporated into the build, but most importantly, a timeline for when you actually expect to be able to move forward and provide replacement parts. Naturally I just purchased fuel sealant and the expiration date is quickly approaching. Any chance we can get the mandatory "replace" parts soon (like fuel tank baffles)?
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Are you referring to the links I shared that are a few weeks/months old?

Just in case there is any doubt, I'm not Greg and I don't work for Van's... I was just trying to answer one of the builders asking if anything had been published by Van's to help identify laser-cut parts.
 
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its due today.....on or before the 5th sep. hopefully we will hear soon. im on the site everyday....:rolleyes:
 
14A DK said:
Greg, as much as I'd like to feel a sense of relief that progress is being made, this is not an update. You've pointed us back to information that has been on your site for weeks. That update states that a new web site will be up in early September so that replacement parts can be ordered. I've been down for almost 2-months, and I expect that it will take a considerable amount of time after parts are ordered before they are available and shipped. I too would like to know what the plan is for bad parts already incorporated into the build, but most importantly, a timeline for when you actually expect to be able to move forward and provide replacement parts. Naturally I just purchased fuel sealant and the expiration date is quickly approaching. Any chance we can get the mandatory "replace" parts soon (like fuel tank baffles)?
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How in the world did this not get removed? Something stinks.
 
flyingRV said:
Maybe I have missed something, but did Vans ever tell us how we can definetely determine if the parts we got are LCPs?
The only thing I‘ve heard so far was the blue vinyl indicating it‘s a punched part, but I have several parts in my kits crated in the mentioned timeframes without the blue vinyl but no burning marks. Is there a chance that these parts are also punched? Would be very annoying for us to stop building for months if not neccessary at all.
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A punched part will have a slight rolled edge on one side. Find a part that has blue vinyl and compare the edge with parts not covered in blue.
 
Hi folks.

I apologize for the lack of an update today. I've been out of the office and back late. We've met internally today (just out of that meeting) regarding info updates and will share some information on Wednesday. Apologies for the delay. We do understand the frustration over waiting for both information and parts. As soon as we are able to share new info, we will certainly do so.

Thank you.

greg
 
flyingRV said:
Is there a chance that these parts are also punched? Would be very annoying for us to stop building for months if not neccessary at all.
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Please refer to this document for directions related to determining punched vs laser cut parts. There are some punched parts that do not have blue vinyl, specifically parts that were punched but where the material is heat treated.
 
greghughespdx said:
Hi folks.

I apologize for the lack of an update today. I've been out of the office and back late. We've met internally today (just out of that meeting) regarding info updates and will share some information on Wednesday. Apologies for the delay. We do understand the frustration over waiting for both information and parts. As soon as we are able to share new info, we will certainly do so.

Thank you.

greg
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No worries, Greg. Cheers!
 
That document helps you determine laser vs. punched if you haven't installed it yet. If you have installed it you've filled most holes with rivets and other holes you've deburred along with deburring all of the edges. Those are the tough ones to know. I don't prime many parts, but if you did that would make it even harder.

I have a question about the markings on the parts. The red text that has the thickness, lot #, etc., is that put on before or after the blue vinyl? Is it also on laser cut parts? When the blue vinyl is removed it appears to take some of the red text with it. That might be another way to know if your part had blue vinyl or not.

Here is one example I have. Not the greatest pictures, but it shows the red text along the edge of the part as much more legible with the blue vinyl than without.
 
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dstates said:
That document helps you determine laser vs. punched if you haven't installed it yet. If you have installed it you've filled most holes with rivets and other holes you've deburred along with deburring all of the edges. Those are the tough ones to know. I don't prime many parts, but if you did that would make it even harder.

I have a question about the markings on the parts. The red text that has the thickness, lot #, etc., is that put on before or after the blue vinyl? Is it also on laser cut parts? When the blue vinyl is removed it appears to take some of the red text with it. That might be another way to know if your part had blue vinyl or not.

Here is one example I have. Not the greatest pictures, but it shows the red text along the edge of the part as much more legible with the blue vinyl than without.
Click to expand...

The red text is applied at the aluminum manufacturer. Van's normally adds the blue vinyl to their sheet stock before they start cutting the sheets up for parts. Not sure if they never applied it to parts that were destined to be LC or had the LCP vendor remove it before zapping them.
 
Those of us with QB kits? I have fully assembled parts that I have never seen or taken pictures of that are completely closed. Your information has these QB kits with LCPs. We are still waiting for word.

So far it appears you want us to do the following:

Completely rip apart/disassemble a fully built wing and fuselage then inspect for laser cut parts, which is near impossible with the guidance you gave us. Then take these parts that are unassembled and rebuild the thing all over again hopping you got all the LCPs. You would have to have three lifetimes of spare time and the skill of a master metal worker to pull that off. No thanks, not possible and you know it.

Any other QB folks that have their kits; already delivered with the LCPs have thoughts? Have you had any direct communication with Vans? So far all my emails have been ignored.
 
tenacious9 said:
Those of us with QB kits? I have fully assembled parts that I have never seen or taken pictures of that are completely closed. Your information has these QB kits with LCPs. We are still waiting for word.

So far it appears you want us to do the following:

Completely rip apart/disassemble a fully built wing and fuselage then inspect for laser cut parts, which is near impossible with the guidance you gave us. Then take these parts that are unassembled and rebuild the thing all over again hopping you got all the LCPs. You would have to have three lifetimes of spare time and the skill of a master metal worker to pull that off. No thanks, not possible and you know it.

Any other QB folks that have their kits; already delivered with the LCPs have thoughts? Have you had any direct communication with Vans? So far all my emails have been ignored.
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With all due respect, Vans has not even suggested this. I agree that they have been too quiet re QB kits, but nowhere has there been even a hint that they will expect buyers to disassemble QB kits. I expect QB kit owners will be given the choice of either waiting for replacement kits or some compensation and the parts to fix what they have. Results from the Testing may be important for some folks to decide what is best for them.
 
Cessnadog said:
With all due respect, Vans has not even suggested this. I agree that they have been too quiet re QB kits, but nowhere has there been even a hint that they will expect buyers to disassemble QB kits. I expect QB kit owners will be given the choice of either waiting for replacement kits or some compensation and the parts to fix what they have. Results from the Testing may be important for some folks to decide what is best for them.
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To look at what you said from a glass half empty perspective:

Vans also has NOT said "(We) don't expect buyers to disassemble QB kits".

An omission in words or language, under present circumstances, is possibly the same as inclusion of the aforementioned quote.

I hope you are right cessnadog! But pay attention to what they do, not what they say.
 
YES!! Pay attention to what they do… And with the corrosion issue they had a few years ago they gave people a choice. Wait for new kits or get paid and deal with it. Why would you automatically assume they are going to screw you?

I am frustrated too. But folks need to chill out just a bit. Hopefully we will get good news today.
 
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