What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Major engine/prop overspeed event

Kevin Horton

Well Known Member
This has been an expensive day. I had flown a climb performance test yesterday, and another airspeed calibration test this morning. Everything was going well, and I was hoping to get to the 25 hour point by the end of next weekend, weather permitting. This afternoon I strapped 75 lb ballast down in the aft baggage compartment to move the CG back to the middle of the envelope, and took off to fly a series of tests that I will repeat at successively more aft CGs as I work back to the aft limit.

Many of the points in my test program are pulled from the FAR 23 requirements for single-engine aircraft - they are the same tests that would be done during the type certification flight testing on a production aircraft. I added the FAR 23 test points as I was curious how the aircraft matched up.

One of the tests on the card was a pitch trim check with idle power at VNE, as called for in FAR 23.161(c)(3). I didn?t expect that there was any risk associated with this test, so I didn?t do any sort of build up test points. I pushed over to VNE, then smoothly brought the throttle towards idle. As I got back to about one-third throttle all **** broke loose. The rpm ran away, increasing rapidly through 3500 rpm. My instinctive reaction was to undo the last action I had just taken, so I pushed the throttle forward a bit. The rpm continued to increase, and I saw over 3800 rpm before it decreased back into the normal range.

I stopped the testing, and headed back towards Smiths Falls. The engine showed no signs of distress, but it was clear that the smart thing to do was to land ASAP. I looked at the recorded data, and it shows that shortly after I brought the throttle back the oil pressure started to drop sharply, indicating as low as 22 psi (but, there is almost certainly some air in the line from the engine to the oil pressure transducer, which would dampen the oil pressure indication, so the actual pressure may have been lower), and obviously the prop governor stopped getting the oil it needed to control the prop. The prop will go to low pitch if the oil supply stops, and low pitch and a bit of power at VNE led to a very high rpm. The data shows the max rpm as 3991. Ouch.

Now I need to figure out what to do next. It is clear that all rotating or reciprocating components would have experienced very high stresses. It is possible that no damage was done. It is also possible that the high stresses could have started a crack in a critical component, leading to a catastrophic engine or prop failure down the road. I looked at my Hartzell Propeller Operators Manual, and it calls for an inspection by an overhaul shop if the prop experiences a speed of more than 110% the limit. The limit is 2700 rpm, so the prop saw 148% of the limit. If the prop sheds one blade, the out of balance forces usually cause the engine mount to fail, and once the engine departs the aircraft the CG is so far aft that control is usually lost, resulting in a fatal accident. I'm not willing to risk that, so I?ll either send the prop to an overhaul shop for inspection, or buy a new one. I?ll look into the option of getting an ?aerobatic? prop, which goes to high pitch if the oil pressure drops. Unfortunately, that would require a different spinner, as apparently the counterweights at the blade root won't fit inside Van's spinner. Hopefully the base diameter of the spinner isn't too much larger, or I may have to do some cowling mods too.

I?ll call Bart Lalonde at AeroSport Power to get his take on the engine aspects, but I expect I?ll pull the engine and have him open it up for inspection. I may replace things like connecting rods, pistons, etc.

I was hoping to finish off the mandatory 25 hour test program next weekend. But, now I have grounded the aircraft after 12 flights and 17.4 hours. I expect there will be a couple month hiatus in the test program.

In retrospect, I should have paid more attention to a small drop in oil pressure that I had seen during a power-on dive on an earlier flight. That was a sign that the oil was moving towards the front of the oil sump, away from the oil pickup. After that flight I added some oil, and repeated the condition with negligible effect on the oil pressure. But, I should have recognized that pulling the power to idle could cause the oil pressure to drop, and I should have done a work-up in speed on this test. I.e. do the test at a lower speed, and repeat at successively higher speeds. Also, I had already recognized that the propeller low pitch stop was set too fine, and I had made an adjustment before this flight. I shouldn?t have even tried this test until I was satisfied that the low pitch stop was correctly set (i.e., set so that the rpm is a bit less than 2700 during the initial part of the take-off run).

Also in retrospect (isn't hindsight great?), my response to the event was not correct. I should have pulled the throttle all the way to idle, and pulled a bunch of g to get the nose up to slow down ASAP. But, whether the max rpm was 3500 or 4000, I would still be in the same boat I am now - i.e. looking at expensive inspections.

I'm still trying to puzzle out whether there is something unique about my aircraft that made it more susceptible to this occurrence, or whether this is something that someone else could have happen on their aircraft. There was 8.5 quarts of oil in the system (i.e. the total in the sump, oil filter, prop system, inverted oil system). Maybe I really need to carry more oil. Or maybe there is some anomaly with the oil pickup in the sump. I don't know.

I?m glad this event didn?t occur when I was on the road. If you are going into a large airport, it is not uncommon for ATC to request a high speed until about five miles on final, to facilitate approach sequencing with the airliners. I can envision that I could be coming down the ILS at 170 KIAS, then pulling the power back a long ways to slow down.
 
All I can say is it hurts just to read this. Sometimes things are just not fair at all!

I wish the best possible outcome from a horrible event.
 
Talk to Bart about the engine.

The prop needs overhaul for sure, IMHO.

Kevin, I'm glad things went well enough to get you on the ground. This could have turned out much worse.
 
Last edited:
Similar Experience - Results

Kevin I had a similar experience with my RV-6A during the test period from another cause. Some of this will apply to your situation. I was in level flight after a Vx like climb to 2000 feet after departing the Chino California airport. The prop RPM increased to the low 3000s RPM small streamers of oil appeared on the windshield and I observed the oil pressure was zero. The prop control was totally ineffective and I pulled the throttle back with both hands to get the RPM back in the normal operational range. I advised the tower I had a problem and was returning to the airport. I flew directly to the approach end of runway 26R and the engine was emitting the sounds of self destruction. The engine seized on the rollout and I had to get out and pull the plane off the runway.

The prop speed and time was much lower than yours but it fell the "prop shop" disassembly and inspection required window. I delivered it to the prop shop in Burbank and got it back sometime later recertified with no problems found.

I took the brand new O-360-A1A to the engine shop in Oceanside. It required a new crankshaft, bearings and connecting rods but the cylinders were fine.

I lost all oil throught a fitting that I hand tightened to keep clean during the installation of a new oil cooler. Your low pressure is not the same but the effects could be similar. The fact that your engine is still operating apparently normally is certainly a good sign but as you say it warants an inspection.

Bob Axsom
 
Wow!

Kevin,

First, I am both extremely glad to hear that nothing departed the aircraft during the event, and extremely sad to hear that it happened.

Mostly, I am just sitting here going "Wow - I never even thought about the scenario !" the scenario you are describing makes a whole lot of sense - prop being driven by airspeed, but throttle back on the stop, there is low oil pressure to drive it to high pitch - and I am just surprised that I have never even thought about it before. It's amazing the corners that are still out there to be discovered. I will be extremely interested (as we all will) to discover if something was just misadjustd in the prop or governor that made you setup different than others. I mean, I have a factory engine and factory prop, both set by the factory - if there is something lurking in there, we all need to know it!

There's no need to tell you about the surprises in store in Flight Test - maybe the story will help those with a little less first hand knowledge to realize how serious it can be.

Paul
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sump Problems?

I see you have a fwd facing cold air sump, is there something about the type of sump you have that could cause the oil to run foward and uncover the pickup somehow?
 
Lycoming SB

Kevin.... glad to see you are OK.

Unfortuneately, if you are relying on the 25 hr test period for a certified engine, you probably need to comply with the applicable Lycoming SB

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support/publications/service-bulletins/pdfs/SB369J.pdf

....this is the bad bit, applicable for a 10% overspeed (2970 rpm)....

6. Remove the engine from the aircraft; disassemble it and inspect the parts in accordance with the applicable overhaul manual. Replace any parts that are damaged or not within the service limits as shown in the Table of Limits. In engines equipped with dynamic counterweights, the bushings must be replaced in both counterweight and crankshaft.

Since your overspeed was so much more, compliance with the SB would seem to be the correct thing to do.


Could something have gone wrong with your inverted oil system that could have caused a loss of oil pick up?
 
Last edited:
<<the scenario you are describing makes a whole lot of sense - prop being driven by airspeed, but throttle back on the stop, there is low oil pressure to drive it to high pitch >>

Doesn't make sense. Oil pressure is a function of RPM, not throttle position. Sounds like Kevin had plenty of RPM...thus he should have had plenty of oil pressure and the prop should not have gone to low pitch.

I would suspect an oil delivery problem.
 
Kevin, it is a delight that you are present to report what happened.

An over speed of that magnitude could have been catastrophic. It is a credit to Lycoming and whoever made your prop that no pieces were shed, a blade separation would not have been good at all.

The number 3991 is way off the chart in this matter. For sure you already know a complete tear down is the only route to take.
 
You have my utmost admiration!

Kevin, Thanks so much for posting about your unfortunate event. As I am about to begin my phase 1 testing in a week or so, I eagerly await any wisdom you pass to the group. You have my utmost admiration.

My plan at this point is to not push Vne testing, although I was going to test close to the published limits. I will certainly keep your experience front and center and proceed slowly and methodically while watching for oil pressure anomalies. Thank you for the wake up call! I wish you the best with the inspections.
 
Curiosity strikes again.....

.........One of the tests on the card was a pitch trim check with idle power at VNE, as called for in FAR 23.161(c)(3). .........

Kevin- Just curious what the purpose of this test is? Seems that it would be unusual to retard the throttle completely at Vne in normal operations, but maybe you would on the back side of a loop gone bad?

Thanks,
 
<<the scenario you are describing makes a whole lot of sense - prop being driven by airspeed, but throttle back on the stop, there is low oil pressure to drive it to high pitch >>

Doesn't make sense. Oil pressure is a function of RPM, not throttle position. Sounds like Kevin had plenty of RPM...thus he should have had plenty of oil pressure and the prop should not have gone to low pitch.

I would suspect an oil delivery problem.

Yeah, upon further thought, I agree with you Dan - the oil pump should be pumping relative to engine speed, and it doesn't care where it's from - drivn or driving.....that's why I've always figured the system was foolproof (as long as there was oil). Hmmmm....

Paul
 
Kevin, I'll bet the check valve in your inverted oil system got a piece of trash in its bore, and hung up the ball.

I've seen this exact thing happen 2-3 times in the past five years. Most recently a guy I know was doing some acro in his -8, lost oil pressure, which trashed the engine when the check ball locked up.
 
Last edited:
Seems like there was another RV engine trashed due to some issue with an inverted oil system at my airport a year or so ago.

You may be feeling the same despondent way I felt when I determined that new oil pressure problems were due to metal clogging the fuel screen. It took a while to get over it but in the end that you are here overrides any concerns about cost or lost flying time.
 
O-360 Vs Automobile engine damage.

With automobile engines, overspeeding under high power output usually results in bent connecting rods. I'd be curious what is found with the O-360?
 
Seems like there was another RV engine trashed due to some issue with an inverted oil system at my airport a year or so ago.

You may be feeling the same despondent way I felt when I determined that new oil pressure problems were due to metal clogging the fuel screen. It took a while to get over it but in the end that you are here overrides any concerns about cost or lost flying time.

Ouch. It sounds to me like the oil sump simply unported. I'm guessing that you didn't push over hard enough go negative, so really should be no issue with oil pickup, how low was the oil level when you started? If it unported once, It's entirely possible that the pump in the governor just hiccuped then cavitated with the massive increase in RPM, but the low pitch stops should prevent blade pitches toward the 4000rpm range. Even in the 300+ hp Extra I flew in, we only hit 3000ish in the down line, and that only briefly while waiting for the governor to take back over.
 
<<the scenario you are describing makes a whole lot of sense - prop being driven by airspeed, but throttle back on the stop, there is low oil pressure to drive it to high pitch >>

Doesn't make sense. Oil pressure is a function of RPM, not throttle position. Sounds like Kevin had plenty of RPM...thus he should have had plenty of oil pressure and the prop should not have gone to low pitch.

I would suspect an oil delivery problem.

I agree with Dan! It was not a function of the engine at idle as you had copious RPM. It is likely a problem at the pick up tube or in your inverted system. You need check your sump and oil supply/return hoses.
Just a thought, you do have the ball check valves oriented correctly?
Wow! What a revolting development. Good Luck and keep us posted on what is found.
 
Inverted oil tests?

Kevin

Sorry to hear what's happened.
Firstly and most importantly you got down in one piece.

Had you tested the inverted oil system. Had it been inverted? Is there a possiblity it may have had air in the lines?

I've read your website. Have you fitted the plug and reduced the oil filter screen in the sump?
How hard did you push over into the dive. Where is the pick up? It should normally take a VERY steep dive to uncover it.

I had to run a similar test as it's part of the UK test requirements and I just built up speed slowly then pulled the throttle back to idle at VNE - all worked fine.


Best of Luck and ghope the damage isn't too great

Peter
 
Thankful.....

....that you're down in one piece, Kevin!!

In our earlier race cars we had lost oil pressure during hard braking as the oil moved forward until we bought a gated oil pan that would trap the oil around the pickup by hinged "gates". You're one of the only people I've read about that did this test. Sounds like the others have said, the oil ran forward since at VNE and idle, there'd be tremendous braking effect and most of the oil accumulated in the front, unporting the pickup....230MPH at idle power would probably put you into the shoulder harnesses.

Regards,
 
Kevin:

Congrats on getting her down in one piece. Do you need new seat cushions now? ;)

Thanks for sharing with the VAF community. These posts are to me the most meaningful on VAF because they contribute to safety and knowledge.

This should serve as a reminder to everyone that Phase I is serious business, even on a proven airframe with a proven powerplant/prop combination.

I am not an engine guru, but what Pierre is saying makes a hulluva lot of sense.

Get your engine torn down, get the prop overhauled, and get back in the air!
 
Ouch. Sorry to hear about the incident. However, it's better that you learned about this during flight test than during an actual flight. Glad you're Ok.

I would suggest tearing down and inspecting in accordance with Lyc's recommendations, although Aero Sport Power may have a different recommendation. If there's something wrong, you'd rather find out now rather than later (to continue the theme). 3900+ RPM is a lot for that engine. It may be able to handle it, but best not to push it.

If this is the worst thing that happens to the airplane, life is good.

TODR
 
An unloaded 4k rpm would not bother me at all.
Since I have no liability in this game, Id fly it as is.

Always easy to sit on side lines and recommend rip it out and start over. After all thats the SAFE thing to do any everyone always recommend SAFE.
Who can argue with that?

I guess I will. If it were my money. Id give her a thurough once over, scratch my head on why the over run, find and address that, & fly it. If it did not catostrofically fail right then, its likely fine. If it makes it several hours after this incident under high loads, Id argue its just as likely as any engine to make it to TBO. Its pretty easy to safely put a few hard hours on it and see.

Any prop and engine shop will always recommend you rip it out casue thats their business and their liability sit on it. DOnt expect any business to ever recommend anything other than the safest most expensive thing to do. Safe Safe Safe Safe Safe. Drives me nuts.

OMG did he just tell him to fly it??? YES!

Just another one mans opinion.
 
Thanks for sharing

Hi.

Thanks for sharing this and I'm very glad you and the plane made it to the ground in one piece!

I'm certainly going to keep your post in mind when I'm told by ATC to hold high speed inbound and slow down as late as possible. That'll be a scenario in which to be careful for!

Hope you'll able to get your bird in the air again soon!

Good luck!
 
UGH!

Hey Kevin:

Glad you're OK -- this test pilot stuff is not the most boring job around...

Sounds like the pump unported (could be several reasons here), or you had a hose collapse (difficult to trace), or the diverter valve malfunctioned (likely cause: a piece of trash). I test flew a Rocket that had a light/warning horn that would blare at me as I descended into the pattern due to the pump unporting -- I sure didn't care for that! We slower the warnings by running the engine with 12 qt oil on all flights.

Another ship in the test period had a hose collapse (we think) causing an OP loss, and ensuing RPM loss. Removing the inverted system allowed test flights to continue with this ship.

What was your dive angle? Dave Anders had the pump unport on his Reno racer at 'the release', causing an overspeed, and the ship was wrecked in the following emergency landing (very bad runway surface conditions); Dave got out OK...this particular incident caused me to switch to counterweighted props for most applications.

Why the switch to a c/w prop? Normally, a/c equipped for aeros have a counterweighted prop along with the inverted oil and fuel systems, to eliminate the scenario you experienced during the expected oil pressure fluctuations seen during that sort of flight profile. The counterweighted props fail toward high pitch/low RPM, generally eliminating the chances of engine damage. You may want to change to that style prop if lots of aerobatic activity, or oil pressure fluctuations, are normal in your flight profile.

BTW an overspeed on a 6 cyl engine generally causes the prop bolts to shear due the the crankshaft harmonics....this is generally not a good day either, tho losing the prop is a much smaller CG shift compared to losing the entire engine.

Additionally, you may want to check the location of your oil pickup -- as I recall, the manufacturer wants the pickup nearer to the fwd area of the sump (the 540s have 2 available bosses), and the sumps available thru Kevin Murray/Sky Dynamics (again, for the 540) have a swivel fitting, fitted into a sort of lower sump area, that allows knife edge flight -- you might want to have a look to see if a similar sump is available for your engine.

Please, let us know what you find as the root cause.

Carry on!
Mark
 
In normal cruise, the centrifugal force acting on the hub is 19 tons. This was told to me by a Hartzell engineer. If I remember my college physics correctly centrifugal force is logarithmic so double the RPM and the forces acting on the hub, shank, bearings, races, etc. go way up. This is where a composite blade has a big advantage, and why the gyroscopic forces are so much less.

About six months ago a gent I know with an RV-8 was doing some loops, and lost oil pressure. He came back to the airport basically at idle, the main and rod bearings were trashed on teardown. I believe Bart covered half of the rebuild and the inverted system manufacturer covered the other half. The cause was the ball in the check valve got stuck. I believe the clearance in the check valve is something like .001", so it doesn't take much to get one stuck.
 
the usual suspect

Notice how many have mentioned the inverted system? I've got 2 friends who have had problems with them, one on a certified Decathalon & the other on a Pitts. The Pitts happened just a month ago. Plumbing around the system gave normal oil pressure. Nothing was found when he disassembled the ball assy, but after disassembly, cleaning & re-installing it, pressure was back to normal.

Charlie
 
Scary! Glad you are ok Kevin.

That Lyco was very strong indeed to stay together!

I don't agree with some other posters here to leave it together. At that rpm, you could have tagged the valves due to valve float or seriously stressed the rods, crank or valve springs. The low oil pressure alone at such a high rpm would be cause to lake a look.

I know why I like electric props now.
 
Take it apart, magnaflux the crank and rods, and like Ross said, check the valves. The closed-throttle overspeed is the worst possible case. No opposing gas pressures to reduce rod stress at TDC due to piston inertia. Plus it is a 3-main crank, so opposing cylinder pairs put a bending moment on the crank due to the same piston inertia and the cylinder offset.

The usual flat motor inverted oil system does not guarantee oil supply. You should see the whirl-a-gig pickup/vent system in an M14 oil tank.
 
Oil Accumulator

I installed a Moroso oil pressure accumulator on my drag race engine to prevent oil pressure fluctuations. These are used by both drag and stock car racers for this purpose. I just checked the Moroso site and they come in 1-1/2 and 3 qt sizes. If there is room to install this it would certainly help prevent this type of accident. By using solenoids they can be used to prelube the engine before starting and if the engine is turbo charged can provide oil to the turbo after shut down.

Bob Parry
 
I just got off the phone after talking to Bart Lalonde. He says that Lycoming would recommend replacing a whole long list of components, but in his experience he would magnaflux everything and only replace as necessary. He would replace the con rod bolts and crankshaft counterweight bushings on spec. He offered a very fair price to do the inspection, so I will be pulling the engine and shipping it back to him.

Bart says that he has seen problems with the standard Christen oil pickup on the angle valve engines, as the pickup is near the back of the sump. Apparently Raven sells a longer pickup that puts it near the middle of the sump. I'll look into that.

I sent an e-mail to Hartzell asking if they make counterweighted props with the blended airfoil blades. If so, I'll be very tempted to buy one of those, but I'm not looking forward to sorting out the spinner. If I can't get a counterweighted blended airfoil prop, I'll look for an aerobatic version of my current prop, which has the older 7666 blades. I'm not sure whether I would sell my existing prop as-is, or whether I would have it inspected and then sell it.

I went through all the phases of grief yesterday afternoon. At first, I was in denial, and for a few minutes I was tempted to just pull the oil filter and look for metal, and then fly it as-is, hoping everything was OK. But I pretty quickly realized that I wasn't prepared to take the risk, given the potential consequences. Then there was anger and depression. Today I am simply happy that I and the aircraft are OK. There is nothing wrong that a bit of time and a bunch of money can't fix.
 
The closed-throttle overspeed is the worst possible case. No opposing gas pressures to reduce rod stress at TDC due to piston inertia.


Dan in his note he said as he approached 1/3 throttle, allXXXX. and so forth.
I agree the closed throttle is worse, but he was not there at run away.

Would you not agree that his throttle setting was "Best case" senerio?
 
I went through all the phases of grief yesterday afternoon. At first, I was in denial, and for a few minutes I was tempted to just pull the oil filter and look for metal, and then fly it as-is, hoping everything was OK. But I pretty quickly realized that I wasn't prepared to take the risk, given the potential consequences. Then there was anger and depression. Today I am simply happy that I and the aircraft are OK. There is nothing wrong that a bit of time and a bunch of money can't fix.

Kevin, we have all done stuff we wish turned out different. I'm just glad you did not join the "smokin hole club". You are making good decisions now and thats all you can control.

I would go with what Bart says. He certainly is an experienced expert in diagnosing and rebuilding aircraft engines and has seen it all, and then some.;)

Good luck and keep us posted as to what they find on the tear down.
 
While I would...

Kevin, we have all done stuff we wish turned out different. I'm just glad you did not join the "smokin hole club". You are making good decisions now and thats all you can control.

I would go with what Bart says. He certainly is an experienced expert in diagnosing and rebuilding aircraft engines and has seen it all, and then some.;)

Good luck and keep us posted as to what they find on the tear down.

...disagree with the "keep on flying" post....:rolleyes:

It is good to know that there is a really large safety margin built into our Lycoming engines....:)

You almost hit a 50% overspeed (and probably a lack of lubrication) and the engine ran OK to get you home - how many other engines would survive that??
 
<<Dan in his note he said as he approached 1/3 throttle, allXXXX. and so forth. I agree the closed throttle is worse, but he was not there at run away.
Would you not agree that his throttle setting was "Best case" senerio?>>

Good point Mike. I was thinking he snatched the throttle shut when it ran away, but a re-read says he didn't.

Kevin, this is so well documented (in your usual style, my compliments), that I hope you and Bart will take a few minutes later to report exactly what you find in the inspection.
 
Momentary loss of oil pressure

Kevin,

Early in the Doll's flight testing I discovered that I could stall the oil flop valve or uncover the Christen inverted oil pickup in certain maneuvers. High deceleration maneuvers like you described would cause a decrease in oil pressure. I never had a runaway like you described but at the top of a hammerhead or two, I got rpm surges that I caught with power reductions. I fixed the problem by installing a oil accumulator on the firewall plumbed to the top of the oil port leading to the oil pump.

At Oshkosh, Bart Lalonde gave me a fitting to replace the plug fitting on the top of the oil genial on the accessory case. The fitting screws in like the plug, but has a #6 male flair on top.

The accumulator charges with oil when the engine is running and empties back into the engine when the engine is shut down. Anytime the oil pickup is interrupted due to a zero "G" manuever like in a hammerhead, or by rapid deceleration, the accumulator continues supplying oil to the main oil pump and prop governor for several seconds. I have not experienced any oil pressure drops since. I'd recommend that you make this simple addition to you aircraft.

Ask Bart about this fitting. Contact me if you want pictures or information on the accumulator in the Doll.
 
Last edited:
My understanding is that in normal operation the valves are being pushed open by the rocker and pushed shut by the spring. When things get going too fast, the valves get thrown open. Once this happens, the greater the valve's inertia, the more it wants to keep moving (towards the piston!). This ballistic motion of the valve also sends the spring into a pretty chaotic motion which I'm told can ruin it. I suspect those big heavy valves are one of the main rpm limiting factors for our motors.

In any case, if these motors could run at 3900 rpm, wouldn't we optimize the intake and exhaust for this, cut the prop down and go? It sucks that this happened, but I think the best thing is to bite the bullet and tear it down. Good luck and please keep us all informed about what you find.
 
Last edited:
My understanding is that in normal operation the valves are being pushed open by the rocker and pushed shut by the spring. When things get going too fast, the valves get thrown open. Once this happens, the greater the valve's inertia, the more it wants to keep moving
(towards the piston!). This ballistic motion of the valve also sends the spring into a pretty chaotic motion which I'm told can ruin it. I suspect those big heavy valves are one of the main rpm limiting factors for our motors.
Yes; super-high RPM, high-compression motors now use high-pressure air instead of springs to shut the valves - otherwise, you get valve float, no bueno.

TODR
 
The pneumatic valve actuation systems you are mentioning are considerably more complicated then that. We had a seminar here at UBC awhile back with an engineer from Daimler describing a variable cam timing system he was developing. It is the variable cam timing that the F1 engines are using the pneumatics on I believe. The system the Daimler engineer described was hydraulic with a positionable linkage system that could vary both the lift and duration. His system was limited to about 5000 RPM. I asked him if he knew what the Mercedes F1 engine used that at the time turned to around 20,000 RPM!!!! He said that he had asked but that they would not tell him. I suspect that he knew exactly what they were doing but was under a non disclosure agreement.

I have read that Ferrari uses a 3 dimensional cam lobe with a profile that was not just lift and duration but had another axis that the "lifter" could move along to vary lift and timing. Far far out stuff not really needed on what amounts to a constant speed engine such as GA aircraft, but really wild stuff to read about.

I would like to know where the pneumatics come in as air is not a very precise medium for positioning purposes.

Bob Parry
 
The pneumatic valve actuation systems you are mentioning are considerably more complicated then that. We had a seminar here at UBC awhile back with an engineer from Daimler describing a variable cam timing system he was developing. It is the variable cam timing that the F1 engines are using the pneumatics on I believe. ...
I would like to know where the pneumatics come in as air is not a very precise medium for positioning purposes.
Yes, there's a lot of simplification that went in to that, but the basics are correct. F1 engines have used pneumaticly actuated valves for years as they went to around 15krpm. Pneumatically actuated engines are also being used in MotoGP engines. AFAIK, it is plain old compressed air that is used to actually actuate the valves.

TODR
 
Responses to a few of the questions and comments follow:

Ouch. It sounds to me like the oil sump simply unported. I'm guessing that you didn't push over hard enough go negative, so really should be no issue with oil pickup, how low was the oil level when you started? If it unported once, It's entirely possible that the pump in the governor just hiccuped then cavitated with the massive increase in RPM, but the low pitch stops should prevent blade pitches toward the 4000rpm range. Even in the 300+ hp Extra I flew in, we only hit 3000ish in the down line, and that only briefly while waiting for the governor to take back over.
I had 8.5 quarts of oil in the system before the flight, and it shows about the same now. Note that this is 8.5 quarts in the whole system, including whatever is in the prop, oil filter, oil cooler, inverted oil system, etc. The amount in the sump would be less than that.

I didn't push anywhere close to zero g. The pushover was very smooth, probably no lower than 0.9 g.

I know that the prop low pitch stop, as delivered from Hartzell, was not set correctly, as the engine could turn up to 2700 rpm as soon as I started the take-off run. Ideally, the low pitch stop would be set coarser, so the prop was actually sitting on the low pitch stop during the initial part of the take-off run. The rpm would be approximately 2650 at the start of the run, and would increase as the airspeed increased, and then the governor would take over and limit it to 2700 rpm. I had adjusted the low pitch stop in one half turn before this flight, and it still turned up to 2700 as soon as I advanced the power. I highly recommend that everyone note the rpm during the initial part of the take-off run (get a pax to watch the tach, while you fly the aircraft).

If you hit 2700 rpm as soon as you advance the throttle, you really should consider adjusting the low pitch stop. Loosen the jam nut on the prop dome. Turn the adjuster screw in to move the low pitch stop towards the coarser position. Torque the jam nut to 15-20 ft-lb. Adjusting the low pitch stop to get about 2650 rpm at the very start of the take-off run won't hurt performance at all, but it will help limit the max rpm if you ever have an oil pressure problem, and it will reduce the windmilling drag (and improve glide performance) if you ever have an engine failure.

I see you have a fwd facing cold air sump, is there something about the type of sump you have that could cause the oil to run foward and uncover the pickup somehow?
I've got the standard Lycoming sump for the IO-360-A1B6.

Kevin

Sorry to hear what's happened.
Firstly and most importantly you got down in one piece.

Had you tested the inverted oil system. Had it been inverted? Is there a possiblity it may have had air in the lines?

I've read your website. Have you fitted the plug and reduced the oil filter screen in the sump?
How hard did you push over into the dive. Where is the pick up? It should normally take a VERY steep dive to uncover it.

I had to run a similar test as it's part of the UK test requirements and I just built up speed slowly then pulled the throttle back to idle at VNE - all worked fine.
I had not yet pushed to negative g, so I do not know if the inverted oil system was working properly. I believe the inverted oil system was properly installed, but I obviously need to take a closer look at it to reconfirm everything. The dive was at 20 degrees nose down. Not all that steep.

Kevin- Just curious what the purpose of this test is? Seems that it would be unusual to retard the throttle completely at Vne in normal operations, but maybe you would on the back side of a loop gone bad?
To be honest, I don't know what the history of that particular FAR 23 requirement is. I simply viewed it as a requirement to ensure that there was adequate pitch trim authority to cover all possible stabilized flight conditions. I hadn't viewed it as an engine requirement, but the test obviously identified an engine oil system deficiency on my aircraft. I'll need to find the cause of the problem. Maybe it is an inverted oil system installation problem. Or maybe I need to change the oil pickup location to move it further forward. Or maybe I need to run with a lot more oil in the sump. Or...

I can envision a few operational scenarios that would lead to pulling the throttle to idle at high speed - an aerobatic manoeuvre gone bad, ATC keeping you fast until short final, and an emergency descent following an O2 anomaly at altitude are a few examples.

In retrospect, next time I do this test, I will do a build up starting at much lower speeds, paying very close attention to the oil pressure, repeating the test at successively higher speeds. I'll probably also have an aerobatic prop, so an oil pressure anomaly won't lead to an overspeed condition.
 
Important

This problem with the pitch stops on the propeller nearly caused an off airport landing for me several years ago flying an experimental 2/3 scale composite P-51D with a 350 Chevy auto conversion turning a 4 bladed MT constant speed. In my scenario (first flight in this configuration) the loss of a prop governor rendered the aircraft unflyable and in my case I was lucky to make it back to the airport, just barely, and the engine was toast (I spun the main bearings). I was a hired-gun so I'm not an expert on auto conversions or certified installations for that matter. But no oil pressure or prop governor failure are one and the same from the prop's perspective and the stops should be set so that aircraft can still maintain thrust for flight and not be uncontrollably flat.

This is certainly a wakeup call for me as I assumed the props on RVs would be setup properly, or at least close, for our installations.
 
Ovsp

Hello Kevin, I'm very glad to hear you are still with us. I'm impressed that everything stayed together as well. I'd (we) would love to hear the detailed report after everything is said and done. I'm so sorry that this has happened to you, however I'm super glad that the prop did not separate and that you were able to make it back to the field.

Best
Brian Wallis
 
Adjust those Prop's!

Kevin

Thanks for the response.

I'm particularly interested as I have a inverted oil system sitting in my garge awaiting installation.

I was surprised how far out the prop fine pitch stops were when they came from the factory. It took me at least 6 attemps at winding the stops back incrementally to get no more than 2700 rpm on a static run-up.
It was really quite noticeable in the glide performance and change in braking effect with the throttle closed.

Hope all goes well with the engine and prop inspections

Peter
 
Kevin, I'd skip this test

In retrospect, next time I do this test, I will do a build up starting at much lower speeds, paying very close attention to the oil pressure, repeating the test at successively higher speeds. I'll probably also have an aerobatic prop, so an oil pressure anomaly won't lead to an overspeed condition.

Kevin. Lets think about this a bit differently.

What really could be the value of testing pitch trim at VNE and idle power? Unless you have some grossly unconventional propulsion system that has huge destabilizing effects on the aircraft this test serves no useful purpose.

If the RV8 were a brand new design with some really unconventional design features, then this test might make some sense. But its not. We have many thousands of hours on this fleet and I've yet to hear about the 8 having pitch trim issues due to design flaws. We're not going to run out of pitch trim authority at VNE, nor is our trim system going to suffer any ill effects under the proposed test conditions. The RV8 remains statically stable at the test point. Pitch control is not an issue.

Also, do you plan on flying the RV through aerobatic maneuvers that require large negative G, rapid airspeed transients, sustained high speed low power dives, gyroscopic maneuvers, etc etc? IMHO once again, the RV is not the airplane for any of this. Its great for aileron rolls, loops, barrel rolls, etc... the positive G "gentlemen aerobatics" but not the hard stuff. All this to say I don't think you need a counterweighted prop. Its all driven by how you will fly the airplane, and our RV's are just too fragile (in the tail esp) for hard acro.

Finally, its hard for me to post these types of thoughts - in somewhat sterile language - knowing they can be taken as an attack. Of course, that would be wrong. The internet is a funny place. I only want to give you my view here, nothing more. I know there have been many many times that friends of mine have opened my eyes to new ways of looking at things I'd become too familiar with.

I sincerely wish you the best, and look forward to seeing your 8 airborne once again!
 
this test serves no useful purpose

I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable as many of you guys about this stuff, but I'm not sure i agree with the above comment. The underlying purpose of any testing is to discover problems. From my understanding, Kevin did indeed discover a problem by performing this test. By doing so close to the airport, with no pax and in a "flight test" frame of mind, the outcome was very fortunate. Now he will be able to identify and remedy the problem and it won't lead to less fortunate outcome down the road.
 
...If the RV8 were a brand new design with some really unconventional design features, then this test might make some sense. But its not...
Kevin's airplane was completely in the normal envelope, positive G, not over VNE, no maneuvering, so it is hard for me to say the airplane shouldn't be in that situation. To say we shouldn't go there because we probably never will in the flying we plan is something I disagree with. Lots of unexpected things can happen.

Kevin's paying job is to carefully explore the corners of the envelope of airplanes that theoretically should have no problems. I have long thought that his RV-8 would maybe be the first RV, other than maybe the factory ones, that would be completely tested. Indeed, this discouraging incident seems to have shown us all some possible difficulties that we may not have thought of.
 
Larry, I have seen no indication that this has any bearing on the RV-8 airframe. Issues seem to dwell on the prop, inverted oil system, oil pickup etc.
 
Kevin. Lets think about this a bit differently.

What really could be the value of testing pitch trim at VNE and idle power? Unless you have some grossly unconventional propulsion system that has huge destabilizing effects on the aircraft this test serves no useful purpose.

If the RV8 were a brand new design with some really unconventional design features, then this test might make some sense. But its not. We have many thousands of hours on this fleet and I've yet to hear about the 8 having pitch trim issues due to design flaws. We're not going to run out of pitch trim authority at VNE, nor is our trim system going to suffer any ill effects under the proposed test conditions. The RV8 remains statically stable at the test point. Pitch control is not an issue.

Also, do you plan on flying the RV through aerobatic maneuvers that require large negative G, rapid airspeed transients, sustained high speed low power dives, gyroscopic maneuvers, etc etc? IMHO once again, the RV is not the airplane for any of this. Its great for aileron rolls, loops, barrel rolls, etc... the positive G "gentlemen aerobatics" but not the hard stuff. All this to say I don't think you need a counterweighted prop. Its all driven by how you will fly the airplane, and our RV's are just too fragile (in the tail esp) for hard acro.

Finally, its hard for me to post these types of thoughts - in somewhat sterile language - knowing they can be taken as an attack. Of course, that would be wrong. The internet is a funny place. I only want to give you my view here, nothing more. I know there have been many many times that friends of mine have opened my eyes to new ways of looking at things I'd become too familiar with.
Hi Bill - I'm not at all offended by posts like yours that ask honest questions or make honest comments.

I agree that looking at this from a purely longitudinal control point of view, there is really no issue whether the aircraft has enough pitch trim authority to trim at VNE with idle power or not. But, I want an aircraft where I can do whatever I want with the throttle, anywhere inside the normal flight envelope. I want to know that I can safely pull the throttle to idle if I ever need to. Clearly right now I cannot do that, and I need to find the reason and correct it. That will require doing this test several more times.

Looking at this another way, if there is an issue, the right time to find it is during the flight test program, when you are close to home, with no pax on board, wearing a parachute and helmet, and mentally ready to bail out if need be.

As far as the "need" for an aerobatic prop goes - I agree that the RV is not the right aircraft for hard core aerobatics, and I do not intend to do snap rolls, lomchevaks, etc. I know that many other RVers successfully do the type of aerobatics I want to do without an aerobatic prop. But, until I get to the bottom of my apparent oil pickup or inverted oil system issue, I run the risk of having a similar event happen again. If it does, I would sure rather have an aerobatic prop, so this is only a failed test point, and not another multi-month, mega dollar event. So, while I haven't yet made a hard decision, I am certainly leaning towards purchasing an aerobatic prop.
 
Back
Top