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The store is back open as well as increased pricing statement

blaplante said:
I don't understand something. There's a lot of concern about how much the price will go up for engines. Rotax? Lycoming? Well, whatever, isn't there a cap? How can the price go up beyond what you can buy it direct from Lycoming or Rotax? If it does, then direct purchase is the way to go. Yes, if you have a deposit in place w/Van's then you'd have to abandon your order, and perhaps the deposit.
Click to expand...

That theoretical point is a pretty big number. I think that historically lot of people haven't understood exactly how good the engine discount was through Vans. As a reference, the cost of a new certified IO360 M1B is somewhere around $80 grand. Probably closer to $100 if you don't have a core to trade in.

To me, one of the most attractive things about buying a vans kit was the ability to get the discounted engine price that was tied to a vans kit serial number.
 
Jayhox88 said:
I have two huge X factors right now:

1. When will I get my remaining kits delivered and how much will the price increase between now and then, above the 32% today?
2. What ultimately happens with the prop/engine deposits I have and any corresponding increases?

These factors will determine whether I build on or become an unsecured creditor. I would love to build this plane, but I don't have the capital to get a whole lot beyond my planned budget plus, the 15% contingency I built in. The music is still playing, but not sure if I'm going to be able to stay on the dance floor.
Click to expand...

The pay-as-you-go model might change too. When solvent, it might not be stretch to see a Vans's Financial created for providing loans for kits , and for used RV's. It is a way different business, but once the business thinkers get in the barn . . . who knows. It's an avenue that supports more sales.
 
Be kind and Be creative

Just some thoughts I would like to weigh in on after having watched this site and other forums over the course of the past week, and I don't mean to offend anyone.

I find the comments very callous regarding "if you can't afford the 32% increase then you can't afford an airplane." Given the lead times on kits many builders made the decision based upon a budget that could have been much different just a short time ago, given the rising costs of things in our everyday lives. There's a vast difference today in the spendable income of many builders. Some are just starting their aviation journey, and others are on their second/third/fourth build. I know when I first started our journey of fulfilling my childhood dream of one day building an airplane, I was working two jobs to make ends meet. Luckily, Van's didn't have complete kits for the RV-4 ready to go, so we were able to "meter" out the funds over the course of the build as the kits became available. Luckily, I stumbled upon a new O-320 for $3K, and at the time there was a company called RST (Tom Weir) that provided kit radios, so I could afford that.

Later on in life, I got between jobs (you don't know you are between jobs until you get the next job) and I sold our RV-10. That was a really tough decision. Later, we recovered, and the rest is history.

For those of you whom I see making statement that your dream is gone, I would encourage you to not think that way. Consider it just on pause for a bit. Get creative. All of us builders are "doers." Keep in mind that Vans had and will continue to have a steady stream of orders. There are builders that even today are making the decision to build an airplane and would love to have your kit earlier than having to wait a year or more for one. I am a perfect example---once I make a decision to do something I don't want to delay it. That being said, find a way to purchase the kit at the increased price and I bet you could immediately sell it. You may even be able to find that new builder who might help you with the price increase. Then, as life moves on, and your income or situation changes, you can get your dream back on track. Don't decide to write off the deposit. You will regret that long term. Some of you may find building partners that become friends for life. I've seen that happen more than once when financial circumstances changed for someone.

I'm not here to give financial advice, but I bothers me to the core when I hear that aviation dreamers are thinking about kaboshing that dream. To me, there is no better goal than to be an aircraft builder and an aviator. The memories and feelings of accomplishment that it will unleash is irreplaceable in any other endeavor. DaVinci said it best, and I don't need to requote it.

I just want to encourage you to not give up. Yes, it's a hard pill to swallow right now. I know. I've been there. As have many others. Find a way. A solution is there for everyone.

We all need Vans to come out of this a stronger and better company. I believe they will. It is going to take time, and not all of it will feel good to everyone. There are a lot of other companies that are being seriously affected by this, as many downstream orders for ancilliary items are being delayed or cancelled. Imagine what they are going through. Plus, it's a horrible time of the year for everyone to be going through this.

For those of you who are in a place to weather an unexpected increase, that's wonderful. Try to not be so hard on those who aren't in the same place. :)

Together, we will get through this. It's just going to be different that any of us ever thought, but hopefully one day in the not-too-distant future we will look back and be thankful for the lessons learned and the decisions we made during the bumpy times.

Vic
 
vic syracuse said:
Just some thoughts I would like to weigh in on after having watched this site and other forums over the course of the past week, and I don't mean to offend anyone.

I find the comments very callous regarding "if you can't afford the 32% increase then you can't afford an airplane." Given the lead times on kits many builders made the decision based upon a budget that could have been much different just a short time ago, given the rising costs of things in our everyday lives. There's a vast difference today in the spendable income of many builders. Some are just starting their aviation journey, and others are on their second/third/fourth build. I know when I first started our journey of fulfilling my childhood dream of one day building an airplane, I was working two jobs to make ends meet. Luckily, Van's didn't have complete kits for the RV-4 ready to go, so we were able to "meter" out the funds over the course of the build as the kits became available. Luckily, I stumbled upon a new O-320 for $3K, and at the time there was a company called RST (Tom Weir) that provided kit radios, so I could afford that.

Later on in life, I got between jobs (you don't know you are between jobs until you get the next job) and I sold our RV-10. That was a really tough decision. Later, we recovered, and the rest is history.

For those of you whom I see making statement that your dream is gone, I would encourage you to not think that way. Consider it just on pause for a bit. Get creative. All of us builders are "doers." Keep in mind that Vans had and will continue to have a steady stream of orders. There are builders that even today are making the decision to build an airplane and would love to have your kit earlier than having to wait a year or more for one. I am a perfect example---once I make a decision to do something I don't want to delay it. That being said, find a way to purchase the kit at the increased price and I bet you could immediately sell it. You may even be able to find that new builder who might help you with the price increase. Then, as life moves on, and your income or situation changes, you can get your dream back on track. Don't decide to write off the deposit. You will regret that long term. Some of you may find building partners that become friends for life. I've seen that happen more than once when financial circumstances changed for someone.

I'm not here to give financial advice, but I bothers me to the core when I hear that aviation dreamers are thinking about kaboshing that dream. To me, there is no better goal than to be an aircraft builder and an aviator. The memories and feelings of accomplishment that it will unleash is irreplaceable in any other endeavor. DaVinci said it best, and I don't need to requote it.

I just want to encourage you to not give up. Yes, it's a hard pill to swallow right now. I know. I've been there. As have many others. Find a way. A solution is there for everyone.

We all need Vans to come out of this a stronger and better company. I believe they will. It is going to take time, and not all of it will feel good to everyone. There are a lot of other companies that are being seriously affected by this, as many downstream orders for ancilliary items are being delayed or cancelled. Imagine what they are going through. Plus, it's a horrible time of the year for everyone to be going through this.

For those of you who are in a place to weather an unexpected increase, that's wonderful. Try to not be so hard on those who aren't in the same place. :)

Together, we will get through this. It's just going to be different that any of us ever thought, but hopefully one day in the not-too-distant future we will look back and be thankful for the lessons learned and the decisions we made during the bumpy times.

Vic
Click to expand...

Vic, well said.
 
Well said Vic. I’m far from a rich man. I work hard for my money and the big increase hurts. But that plane in my garage will fly at some point. When it does, it’ll be even more satisfying having faced some adversity along the way. Don’t give up people. The hard part is what makes it worthwhile in the end.
 
I would not want to be a new buyer in these times. Now your deposit just holds your place in line and have to pay whatever they decide to charge at shipping, as it should be. With Legacy Vans, this is no issue, as great pains were always taken to keep prices low and fair. I now see the makings of a new Vans; 75-100% increase on all sorts of parts. That points to a far more typical industry practice that follows profit at all cost and not working to keep prices low. This would be concerning for me if I was having to wait another full year to see what the price for my kit was going to be. If my deposit were refundable once the final price was revealed, that is fine, as I could just walk away if it got too high.

I am not really a fan of this "lets just double all the parts prices to get cash more quickly. While a financially strong approach, at some point you are going to lose some customer loyalty. If the cost of the $500 wheel pants has crept up over the last few years, eating into the profit, then raise it accordingly to get it back to a profitable level. Simply doubling all of the parts prices speaks to a new approach and I fear that if that goes unchecked for too long it will erode some loyalty. Staying on the wheel pant theme, that starts to eat into revenue, as there are two other suppliers of wheel pants and suspect they are now cheaper options. Lets not forget that many of these parts are also available from other sources, such as ACS.

When strapped for cash, the easy answer is always to just keep raising prices until we have more of it. Sadly, this has almost as many consequences as selling the parts at a loss. Will need a wait and see approach, but these first steps have me a bit concerned.

There was mention of buying a car and comparing the cost of parts vs the whole car and this is a great vignette to make my point. First, Vans was already doing that, albeit at a smaller level. Lets also remember that when the auto makers started doing that in earnest in the 70's (increasing margins on parts thinking they had a fully captive market) to bolster profits in that segment, they spawned a multi billion dollar aftermarket industry and now only get about 5-10% of the parts marketshare vs the 90% they had before that. Pretty hard to avoid the dynamics of a free market economy. Supply and demand are no less rigid than the laws of gravity. My advice to Vans, though certain they are not listening, would be to strive for a middle ground. Find a strategic pricing plan that works in the industry and stick with it. Lets not forgot that one of the key reasons that Vans is what it is today was the strategy of keeping prices low and affordable.

Larry
 
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Building and flying an RV is an exotic pastime. Roughly the same number of people summit Mount Everest every year as complete RV’s. It’s a project supposedly about the same cost and timeline if you started from zero. The nasty truth is if you have to ask how much you can’t afford it.
 
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lr172 said:
I would not want to be a new buyer in these times. Now your deposit just holds your place in line and have to pay whatever they decide to charge at shipping, as it should be. With Legacy Vans, this is no issue, as great pains were always taken to keep prices low and fair. I now see the makings of a new Vans; 75-100% increase on all sorts of parts. That points to a far more typical industry practice that follows profit at all cost and not working to keep prices low. This would be concerning for me if I was having to wait another full year to see what the price for my kit was going to be. If my deposit were refundable once the final price was revealed, that is fine, as I could just walk away if it got too high.

I am not really a fan of this "lets just double all the parts prices to get cash more quickly. While a financially strong approach, at some point you are going to lose some customer loyalty. If the cost of the $500 wheel pants has crept up over the last few years, eating into the profit, then raise it accordingly to get it back to a profitable level. Simply doubling all of the parts prices speaks to a new approach and I fear that if that goes unchecked for too long it will erode some loyalty. Staying on the wheel pant theme, that starts to eat into revenue, as there are two other suppliers of wheel pants and suspect they are now cheaper options. Lets not forget that many of these parts are also available from other sources, such as ACS.

When strapped for cash, the easy answer is always to just keep raising prices until we have more of it. Sadly, this has almost as many consequences as selling the parts at a loss. Will need a wait and see approach, but these first steps have me a bit concerned.

There was mention of buying a car and comparing the cost of parts vs the whole car. First, Vans was already doing that, albeit at a smaller level. Lets also remember that when the auto makers started doing that in earnest in the 70's (increasing margins on parts thinking they had a fully captive market) to bolster profits in that segment, they spawned a multi billion dollar aftermarket industry and now only get about 5-10% of the parts marketshare vs the 90% they had before that. Pretty hard to avoid the dynamics of a free market economy. Supply and demand are no less rigid than the laws of gravity. My advice to Vans, though certain they are not listening, would be to strive for a middle ground. Find a strategic pricing plan that works in the industry and stick with it. Lets not forgot that one of the key reasons that Vans is what it is today was the strategy of keeping prices low and affordable.

Larry
Click to expand...

I have a very strong feeling that the reason we're seeing stuff double isn't because of a money grab as much as they were selling it far below their own costs and now that's catching up to us. These prices probably should have realistically been what we were paying one to two years ago.
 
vic syracuse said:
Just some thoughts I would like to weigh in on after having watched this site and other forums over the course of the past week, and I don't mean to offend anyone.

I find the comments very callous regarding "if you can't afford the 32% increase then you can't afford an airplane." Given the lead times on kits many builders made the decision based upon a budget that could have been much different just a short time ago, given the rising costs of things in our everyday lives. There's a vast difference today in the spendable income of many builders. Some are just starting their aviation journey, and others are on their second/third/fourth build. I know when I first started our journey of fulfilling my childhood dream of one day building an airplane, I was working two jobs to make ends meet. Luckily, Van's didn't have complete kits for the RV-4 ready to go, so we were able to "meter" out the funds over the course of the build as the kits became available. Luckily, I stumbled upon a new O-320 for $3K, and at the time there was a company called RST (Tom Weir) that provided kit radios, so I could afford that.

Later on in life, I got between jobs (you don't know you are between jobs until you get the next job) and I sold our RV-10. That was a really tough decision. Later, we recovered, and the rest is history.

For those of you whom I see making statement that your dream is gone, I would encourage you to not think that way. Consider it just on pause for a bit. Get creative. All of us builders are "doers." Keep in mind that Vans had and will continue to have a steady stream of orders. There are builders that even today are making the decision to build an airplane and would love to have your kit earlier than having to wait a year or more for one. I am a perfect example---once I make a decision to do something I don't want to delay it. That being said, find a way to purchase the kit at the increased price and I bet you could immediately sell it. You may even be able to find that new builder who might help you with the price increase. Then, as life moves on, and your income or situation changes, you can get your dream back on track. Don't decide to write off the deposit. You will regret that long term. Some of you may find building partners that become friends for life. I've seen that happen more than once when financial circumstances changed for someone.

I'm not here to give financial advice, but I bothers me to the core when I hear that aviation dreamers are thinking about kaboshing that dream. To me, there is no better goal than to be an aircraft builder and an aviator. The memories and feelings of accomplishment that it will unleash is irreplaceable in any other endeavor. DaVinci said it best, and I don't need to requote it.

I just want to encourage you to not give up. Yes, it's a hard pill to swallow right now. I know. I've been there. As have many others. Find a way. A solution is there for everyone.

We all need Vans to come out of this a stronger and better company. I believe they will. It is going to take time, and not all of it will feel good to everyone. There are a lot of other companies that are being seriously affected by this, as many downstream orders for ancilliary items are being delayed or cancelled. Imagine what they are going through. Plus, it's a horrible time of the year for everyone to be going through this.

For those of you who are in a place to weather an unexpected increase, that's wonderful. Try to not be so hard on those who aren't in the same place. :)

Together, we will get through this. It's just going to be different that any of us ever thought, but hopefully one day in the not-too-distant future we will look back and be thankful for the lessons learned and the decisions we made during the bumpy times.

Vic
Click to expand...

Well said Vic!
 
vic syracuse said:
Just some thoughts I would like to weigh in on after having watched this site and other forums over the course of the past week, and I don't mean to offend anyone.

I find the comments very callous regarding "if you can't afford the 32% increase then you can't afford an airplane." Given the lead times on kits many builders made the decision based upon a budget that could have been much different just a short time ago, given the rising costs of things in our everyday lives. There's a vast difference today in the spendable income of many builders. Some are just starting their aviation journey, and others are on their second/third/fourth build. I know when I first started our journey of fulfilling my childhood dream of one day building an airplane, I was working two jobs to make ends meet. Luckily, Van's didn't have complete kits for the RV-4 ready to go, so we were able to "meter" out the funds over the course of the build as the kits became available. Luckily, I stumbled upon a new O-320 for $3K, and at the time there was a company called RST (Tom Weir) that provided kit radios, so I could afford that.

Later on in life, I got between jobs (you don't know you are between jobs until you get the next job) and I sold our RV-10. That was a really tough decision. Later, we recovered, and the rest is history.

For those of you whom I see making statement that your dream is gone, I would encourage you to not think that way. Consider it just on pause for a bit. Get creative. All of us builders are "doers." Keep in mind that Vans had and will continue to have a steady stream of orders. There are builders that even today are making the decision to build an airplane and would love to have your kit earlier than having to wait a year or more for one. I am a perfect example---once I make a decision to do something I don't want to delay it. That being said, find a way to purchase the kit at the increased price and I bet you could immediately sell it. You may even be able to find that new builder who might help you with the price increase. Then, as life moves on, and your income or situation changes, you can get your dream back on track. Don't decide to write off the deposit. You will regret that long term. Some of you may find building partners that become friends for life. I've seen that happen more than once when financial circumstances changed for someone.

I'm not here to give financial advice, but I bothers me to the core when I hear that aviation dreamers are thinking about kaboshing that dream. To me, there is no better goal than to be an aircraft builder and an aviator. The memories and feelings of accomplishment that it will unleash is irreplaceable in any other endeavor. DaVinci said it best, and I don't need to requote it.

I just want to encourage you to not give up. Yes, it's a hard pill to swallow right now. I know. I've been there. As have many others. Find a way. A solution is there for everyone.

We all need Vans to come out of this a stronger and better company. I believe they will. It is going to take time, and not all of it will feel good to everyone. There are a lot of other companies that are being seriously affected by this, as many downstream orders for ancilliary items are being delayed or cancelled. Imagine what they are going through. Plus, it's a horrible time of the year for everyone to be going through this.

For those of you who are in a place to weather an unexpected increase, that's wonderful. Try to not be so hard on those who aren't in the same place. :)

Together, we will get through this. It's just going to be different that any of us ever thought, but hopefully one day in the not-too-distant future we will look back and be thankful for the lessons learned and the decisions we made during the bumpy times.

Vic
Click to expand...

Great motivation! 👍
 
In house vs external parts

squeakersc063 said:
I have a very strong feeling that the reason we're seeing stuff double isn't because of a money grab as much as they were selling it far below their own costs and now that's catching up to us. These prices probably should have realistically been what we were paying one to two years ago.
Click to expand...

I think so, too.
As far as I can tell many externally manufactured parts (fuel tank sealant, bolts, cnc parts like fuel cap flange) have not changed price. Either that’s yet to come or those prices already had good margins because they knew exactly how much the cost in production.
That makes it look like Vans did not have a good understanding of how much their in house punching and bending of parts actually cost them.
 
squeakersc063 said:
I have a very strong feeling that the reason we're seeing stuff double isn't because of a money grab as much as they were selling it far below their own costs and now that's catching up to us. These prices probably should have realistically been what we were paying one to two years ago.
Click to expand...

You may be right, but I am not buying it yet. The mold was created years ago and this is just a guy pouring resin in a mold. Yes, I am sure the resin has gone up 30% and labor has gone up 20%. Just don't buy the fact that vans cost has gone up 100%. I don't think this is a money grab. Instead, someone saying lets just double all of the component prices as we could use the cash. I have my doubts anyone has even done a full accounting yet of actual costs. I suppose it is possible that the fiberglass guy is in just as much trouble and he doubled his price. However, it feels more like an arbitrary increase %age that was used for all parts.
 
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rvbuilder2002 said:
The 6 was never dumped. It was replaced by an aircraft that was basically a redesign of the six, but had enough differences that it was given a new model number. The RV-7.
Click to expand...
It's hard to say it's the same plane though. The -7 is bigger, heavier, more expensive, and the optimal engine is an O-360 vs. an O-320. It looks the same, but it's really the "next model up" from the -6, it always was. Similarly, the -14 is the "next model up" from the -7.

And support of the six was continued for those builders that were still not finished with their project when the seven was introduced.
Click to expand...
And that is appreciated. Hopefully that support will continue.
 
lr172 said:
Instead, someone saying lets just double all of the component prices as we could use the cash.
Click to expand...
I find it hard to believe that the parts sales are a significant enough part of the business that it could be used as a cash grab.
 
lr172 said:
You may be right, but I am not buying it yet. The mold was created years ago and this is just a guy pouring resin in a mold. Yes, I am sure the resin has gone up 30% and labor has gone up 20%. Just don't buy the fact that vans cost has gone up 100%. I don't think this is a money grab. Instead, someone saying lets just double all of the component prices as we could use the cash. I have my doubts anyone has even done a full accounting yet of actual costs. I suppose it is possible that the fiberglass guy is in just as much trouble and he doubled his price. However, it feels more like an arbitrary increase %age that was used for all parts.
Click to expand...

Don't forget there's still a healthy backlog of those fiberglass parts. The ones on my backorder list have been on order since Jan 2022. Using your numbers, my 150$ part has a 50% cost increase just in the parts and labor which would put it at 225 but they're now selling it at something around 250. You don't increase prices to precisely match your cost increases you increase them to keep the same amount of margin. If you were making 10% margin which is stupid low at 150$ your price increase to 225 would make your margins even lower which is unsustainable.
 
Apologies if this has been answered. But do we know if Vans are honouring the price when you put your order in? Obviously new orders only. Im thinking of ordering my finish kit, before prices go up further. Is the price quoted now, the price that I will end up paying? Or do I carry the risk of further price rises between order and delivery, which could be years!
 
Jonnyb said:
Apologies if this has been answered. But do we know if Vans are honouring the price when you put your order in? Obviously new orders only. Im thinking of ordering my finish kit, before prices go up further. Is the price quoted now, the price that I will end up paying? Or do I carry the risk of further price rises between order and delivery, which could be years!
Click to expand...

There are caveats on the order form now to that effect. If the price goes up between order and delivery they can increase the amount you owe at the end.
 
squeakersc063 said:
There are caveats on the order form now to that effect. If the price goes up between order and delivery they can increase the amount you owe at the end.
Click to expand...

This unknown cost increase while waiting on kits is a big concern for my budget. I understand why they're doing it, but it will be a factor for me in moving forward or not. I'm hoping we get some better estimates on crating/delivery to make a more informed decision. I'm not looking for pie in the sky projections like you'll get everything next month, but realistically what they think they can hit. If it's 18 months as an example, I would guess there would likely be more increases in that window.
 
There's not much any builder can do to protect against a price increase between the time they order a kit and the time they get it - but you can insulate yourself to some degree on the future kits. You can order them all now (bank note if needed) and be sure that your are paying that increase just one time on those kits and won't be exposed to multiple years worth of increases. The interest you'll pay on the bank note will likely be very small compared to the year-over-year price increases over the life of the build. Just inventory each kit carefully upon receipt to make sure you have everything, smile, and build on.
 
deMan said:
I think so, too.
As far as I can tell many externally manufactured parts (fuel tank sealant, bolts, cnc parts like fuel cap flange) have not changed price. Either that’s yet to come or those prices already had good margins because they knew exactly how much the cost in production.
That makes it look like Vans did not have a good understanding of how much their in house punching and bending of parts actually cost them.
Click to expand...

Here is an example where applying an arbitrary 100% price increase on parts hasn't really worked out. It feels like Vans still doesn't really have control of its prices vs costs. I get they need cash now but long term this is not a good strategy. Customer aren't going to be happy.

Matco brakes from Vans $2,520 for set of 2.
https://store.vansaircraft.com/u-00011-grove-wheels-brakes-6-x-6-00-u-00011.html

Direct from Matco who I'm sure give Vans a discount so they don't under cut
$1220 !!!
https://matcoals.com/product/whl-brk-wi600-rv-10-config/
 
fr0gpil0t said:
Here is an example where applying an arbitrary 100% price increase on parts hasn't really worked out. It feels like Vans still doesn't really have control of its prices vs costs. I get they need cash now but long term this is not a good strategy. Customer aren't going to be happy.

Matco brakes from Vans $2,520 for set of 2.
https://store.vansaircraft.com/u-00011-grove-wheels-brakes-6-x-6-00-u-00011.html

Direct from Matco who I'm sure give Vans a discount so they don't under cut
$1220 !!!
https://matcoals.com/product/whl-brk-wi600-rv-10-config/
Click to expand...

Interesting, I wonder how this will play with engines and props?
 
airguy said:
There's not much any builder can do to protect against a price increase between the time they order a kit and the time they get it - but you can insulate yourself to some degree on the future kits. You can order them all now (bank note if needed) and be sure that your are paying that increase just one time on those kits and won't be exposed to multiple years worth of increases. The interest you'll pay on the bank note will likely be very small compared to the year-over-year price increases over the life of the build. Just inventory each kit carefully upon receipt to make sure you have everything, smile, and build on.
Click to expand...

I ordered all of the kits over 6 months ago, so we'll see what they communicate with us in the next week or so. I agree, tough to fully insulate yourself from price increases, but if you have a relatively accurate delivery window, you in theory would have a better idea. Also, I've already placed orders and deposits for my engine and prop in the same order window. I will really need to see what they do with those. There's no doubt if my engine and prop deposit are "gone" so to speak, then likely so are my building plans for the foreseeable future. I would have to decide then whether to not accept terms or not and simply try to sell.
 
fr0gpil0t said:
Here is an example where applying an arbitrary 100% price increase on parts hasn't really worked out. It feels like Vans still doesn't really have control of its prices vs costs. I get they need cash now but long term this is not a good strategy. Customer aren't going to be happy.

Matco brakes from Vans $2,520 for set of 2.
https://store.vansaircraft.com/u-00011-grove-wheels-brakes-6-x-6-00-u-00011.html

Direct from Matco who I'm sure give Vans a discount so they don't under cut
$1220 !!!
https://matcoals.com/product/whl-brk-wi600-rv-10-config/
Click to expand...

The Van's parts are Grove Brakes
 
fr0gpil0t said:
Here is an example where applying an arbitrary 100% price increase on parts hasn't really worked out. It feels like Vans still doesn't really have control of its prices vs costs. I get they need cash now but long term this is not a good strategy. Customer aren't going to be happy.

Matco brakes from Vans $2,520 for set of 2.
https://store.vansaircraft.com/u-00011-grove-wheels-brakes-6-x-6-00-u-00011.html

Direct from Matco who I'm sure give Vans a discount so they don't under cut
$1220 !!!
https://matcoals.com/product/whl-brk-wi600-rv-10-config/
Click to expand...
Those are Grove brakes, not Matco.
 
deMan said:
That’s 33% up. Looks like the 9 got a 33% increase across the board on all kits
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Whoa. So I looked back when I was crunching numbers in preparation to start the journey. I have the notes and a receipt for my 7. The 9 is the same fuselage and I believe empennage as the 7. The price I wrote down was 8150 for the fuselage kit and I ordered the emp for 2350. That is apparently a 100% increase since then.

I ordered and crunched numbers in 2021 not 2004.

I will say Lycoming also went up about 100% since then as well. All this in 3-4 years . Whoa! It just really surprised me that it could be that drastic in 3 years.
 
Ive got an order from 2019 when I ordered my empennage.
This is for an RV-8, all slow build.
Empennage $2000
Wings $8025
Fuselarge $9050
Finish $6425
Total: $25500
I wonder if it will have doubled? I know the finish kit has more or less.
 
squeakersc063 said:
Don't forget there's still a healthy backlog of those fiberglass parts. The ones on my backorder list have been on order since Jan 2022. Using your numbers, my 150$ part has a 50% cost increase just in the parts and labor which would put it at 225 but they're now selling it at something around 250. You don't increase prices to precisely match your cost increases you increase them to keep the same amount of margin. If you were making 10% margin which is stupid low at 150$ your price increase to 225 would make your margins even lower which is unsustainable.
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In the past three years, I have watched the cost of Epoxy that I use for small parts more than double in price but not quite triple. Yes a vendor that buys larger quantities than I do may not see as much of a price increase but they still saw a large increase that was higher than inflation.
 
JeremyL said:
Whoa. So I looked back when I was crunching numbers in preparation to start the journey. I have the notes and a receipt for my 7. The 9 is the same fuselage and I believe empennage as the 7. The price I wrote down was 8150 for the fuselage kit and I ordered the emp for 2350. That is apparently a 100% increase since then.

I ordered and crunched numbers in 2021 not 2004.

I will say Lycoming also went up about 100% since then as well. All this in 3-4 years . Whoa! It just really surprised me that it could be that drastic in 3 years.
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I'm not surprised at all. As you said, engines have gone up almost 100%. I'll have to go back and look at my invoices to be sure, but it looks to me like Garmin avionics have gone up about 50%-100% over the same time frame depending on which box you look at.

My (adult) son has loved Old Monterey frozen burritos his whole life. We typically have a package in the freezer for when he comes around. For over a decade you could buy an 8 pack of those things at Kroger for $3.49. Earlier today I was at the store and saw them on "sale". for $5.99.

If something as mass produced and inconsequential as a frozen burrito can have a 70% increase in 3 years, it's pretty easy to make the prediction for something as complicated as airplane parts.

They say a rising tide lifts all ships, but in this case, that rising tide is a widespread economic shift in cost vs. purchasing power.
 
Desert Rat said:
I'm not surprised at all. As you said, engines have gone up almost 100%. I'll have to go back and look at my invoices to be sure, but it looks to me like Garmin avionics have gone up about 50%-100% over the same time frame depending on which box you look at.

My (adult) son has loved Old Monterey frozen burritos his whole life. We typically have a package in the freezer for when he comes around. For over a decade you could buy an 8 pack of those things at Kroger for $3.49. Earlier today I was at the store and saw them on "sale". for $5.99.

If something as mass produced and inconsequential as a frozen burrito can have a 70% increase in 3 years, it's pretty easy to make the prediction for something as complicated as airplane parts.

They say a rising tide lifts all ships, but in this case, that rising tide is a widespread economic shift in cost vs. purchasing power.
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I love the burrito reference. Yeah rising tide lifts all ships….. my salary is definitely not a ship haha, truly wish it were.
 
As an example, the price of the latch part (C654-1) for the sliding canopy has increased overnight by 75%. I'm struggling to understand the logic of the pricing both before and after Chapter 11.

The price bc11 was $15 and is now $26 (whole dollars). That part is just a bare piece of aluminum, $2 retail worth, cut to shape for the builder to finish. The selling price represents at least 1,300% of the material cost, so I wonder are Van's manufacturing costs that high, or are they applying a big markup as profit?

(BTW, the part was on backorder when I needed it, so I cut a couple on the bandsaw. The original part that came in the kit was too short to be usable and Van's have subsequently revised the size.)
 

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Deposit increase

I'm not clear on something. If you have a kit ordered and accept the higher pricing, do you also have to increase your deposit?

I'm not in inclined to give more money to a company who has not properly delivered my first kit I ordered over 2 years ago.
 
PaulvS said:
As an example, the price of the latch part (C654-1) for the sliding canopy has increased overnight by 75%. I'm struggling to understand the logic of the pricing both before and after Chapter 11.

The price bc11 was $15 and is now $26 (whole dollars). That part is just a bare piece of aluminum, $2 retail worth, cut to shape for the builder to finish. The selling price represents at least 1,300% of the material cost, so I wonder are Van's manufacturing costs that high, or are they applying a big markup as profit?

(BTW, the part was on backorder when I needed it, so I cut a couple on the bandsaw. The original part that came in the kit was too short to be usable and Van's have subsequently revised the size.)
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So I was curious how on demand manufacturer would quote this to have some real data to compare. As I didn't have a dimensional drawing I just sketched it up roughly in 5 minutes (price is usually based on tool run time and material used so as long as its roughly the same shape the price should be pretty close). I made it 3mm thick using 6061T6 which if I recall should be roughly correct.

At a quantity of 100 using a waterject the cost is 3.78$ per part manufactured in the US (quote attached below). If you ordered 10 its 11.84$ and it gets worse for smaller quantities due to shipping cost and setup time and a minimum profit Xometry takes. Even if you use CNC machining which is total overkill for this part it would be 11$ at a quantity of 100. That includes shipping with a 5 business day turnaround . It obviously also includes a profit for Xometry as well as the actual manufacturer (Xometry is a middle man).

So all the money is really in Van's overheads. No wonder they want to streamline their shipping operations... .

Oliver
 

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Just a retired engineer

I am just a retired engineer. As an engineer, I do not have all the answers to business operation.

I am retired and living on my savings. What I do know about business (and my retirement) is that it may cost me a certain amount to produce a part. As I ramp up production, I need some place to store the part. At some point, I run out of storage space and need to acquire more space by buying or renting it. This is a NEW cost that adds to my overhead. I do not know of any place that I have lived that new property and or new rental property cost the same same as it did 3-years ago or going back to when I purchased my property. Interest on loans are also 2 to 3 times what it was when I purchased my property.

If I did not own my property today, I would have a much more difficult time acquiring it than I did 6-years ago but could still do it but it would be at a much higher price with much higher financing costs.
 
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The RV7 kit form is up now also. Something to note in the pricing. Fuselage kit went from $10500 to $14500 but now includes the electric trim and dual brakes as standard items rater then upgrades.

This seems to be the same for the other kit order forms also. They have made upgrades part of there standard parts list now.
 
well, $46k for a slow build kit isn't awesome, but it's also not surprising.

It's great that they're continuing to manufacture the 7. Some had theorized that it would be scuttled.
 
Desert Rat said:
well, $46k for a slow build kit isn't awesome, but it's also not surprising.

It's great that they're continuing to manufacture the 7. Some had theorized that it would be scuttled.
Click to expand...

I don't think vans could afford to deal with dropping the 7 too many builders still building the kit do to its popularity and lower cost compared to the 14
 
spatsch said:
So I was curious how on demand manufacturer would quote this to have some real data to compare. As I didn't have a dimensional drawing I just sketched it up roughly in 5 minutes (price is usually based on tool run time and material used so as long as its roughly the same shape the price should be pretty close). I made it 3mm thick using 6061T6 which if I recall should be roughly correct.

At a quantity of 100 using a waterject the cost is 3.78$ per part manufactured in the US (quote attached below). If you ordered 10 its 11.84$ and it gets worse for smaller quantities due to shipping cost and setup time and a minimum profit Xometry takes. Even if you use CNC machining which is total overkill for this part it would be 11$ at a quantity of 100. That includes shipping with a 5 business day turnaround . It obviously also includes a profit for Xometry as well as the actual manufacturer (Xometry is a middle man).

So all the money is really in Van's overheads. No wonder they want to streamline their shipping operations... .

Oliver
Click to expand...

This isn't just about shipping or streamlining day to day manufacturing ops. Someone first designed the part that you sketched up. If you're willing to build a plane that has no engineering behind it, then you are right that you could sketch out parts and have some guy in a shop manufacture the parts relatively cheaply. But outside of that, something has to pay for the thousands upon thousands of hours of engineering time, computers, prototype build, destructive testing, tech support, warehouse storage, etc that go into making the design that you copied. Think of the cost to pay engineers to design a plane for a couple of years before seeing the first dime from it. The customer has to pay for that time, not just pay for the cost to manufacture and ship the parts.

We got pretty spoiled with absolutely dirt cheap prices (relative to the rest of the market anyway) that I'm guessing didn't have solid accounting for all of the up front costs. Maybe it's an overcorrection now that will swing back a little over time. Who knows.
 
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Parts that Van's does not make can be found elsewhere, like Aircraft Spruce. A good shopper will at least price check.

In the upcoming months, I am sure Van's will find many errors in their pricing and correct them, as the program adding up all the part prices needed for a complete airframe, far exceeds the posted kit price.

As others have said..... RV3-4-6 plans show how to make the part. And it was fun...:)
BELLCRANK.JPG
 
APicard said:
The RV7 kit form is up now also. Something to note in the pricing. Fuselage kit went from $10500 to $14500 but now includes the electric trim and dual brakes as standard items rater then upgrades.

This seems to be the same for the other kit order forms also. They have made upgrades part of there standard parts list now.
Click to expand...

Apparently it’s gone up again since your post. A 7 fuse kit is 16500 now! If you have your center section already, it’s 15,300. Almost doubled since I placed my order, put down a deposit and never got the kit...

Finish kits for the 7 are 17000! Maybe if you buy all 4 kits together, they’ll throw in an engine :)
 
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skelrad said:
This isn't just about shipping or streamlining day to day manufacturing ops. You're forgetting that someone first designed the part that you just sketched up. If you're willing to build a plane that has no engineer behind it, then you are right that you could sketch out parts and have some guy in a shop manufacture the parts relatively cheaply. But outside of that, something has to pay for the thousands upon thousands of hours of engineering time, computers, prototype build, destructive testing, tech support, warehouse storage, etc that go into making the design that you copied. It may just be one little part, but it was designed to work in an entire airframe, not on its own as a simple standalone part. Think of the cost to pay engineers to design a plane for a couple of years before seeing the first dime from it. The customer has to pay for that time, not just pay for the cost to manufacture and ship the parts.

Yep, the parts cost is much higher than it was just a few weeks ago. I'm guessing the reality is that when the new leadership took a pencil to the books, they saw that virtually everything was a "materials plus" price, and nobody had actually figured out if that percentage was enough to cover the exploding cost of doing business the last 3 or 4 years. Prices are simply now where they probably should have been a long time ago to make the company sustainable. We're all just bummed because we got used to Van's being SO much cheaper than everybody else.
Click to expand...

Let's say they spend $400k a year on engineers' salaries. If they ship 650 kits a year. That's $615 per kit, a small fraction of the kit price. We have an idea what it costs to manufacture parts based on the more expensive cost of on demand manufacturing (which includes material cost, labor, plus third party profit). With cheaper in house manufacturing, I believe the SB kits could easily be much cheaper than they are and still turn a profit. But as you allude to, they have a big overhead and it seems that overhead is not directly related to kit manufacturing.

I think the big overhead problem is overstaffing and trying to be an airplane manufacturer (RV-12 + QB components) in addition to a kit manufacturer, which are really two different business models--the former having very unpredictable costs over the long production cycle. The result is that people that just want to buy sheet metal parts in a SB kit have to subsidize a huge portion of the airplane manufacturing business.

If they keep raising prices on the basic kits to keep the other parts of the business open, then they're going to have fewer and fewer customers and dwindling business, just like the other airplane manufacturers whose prices have gone up astronomically and whose customer bases have all but disappeared.

My opinion is that they need to split the business up and have each company focus on one product type and drop the intercompany subsidizing.
 
bmellis11 said:
Let's say they spend $400k a year on engineers' salaries. If they ship 650 kits a year. That's $615 per kit, a small fraction of the kit price. We have an idea what it costs to manufacture parts based on the more expensive cost of on demand manufacturing (which includes material cost, labor, plus third party profit). With cheaper in house manufacturing, I believe the SB kits could easily be much cheaper than they are and still turn a profit. But as you allude to, they have a big overhead and it seems that overhead is not directly related to kit manufacturing.

I think the big overhead problem is overstaffing and trying to be an airplane manufacturer (RV-12 + QB components) in addition to a kit manufacturer, which are really two different business models--the former having very unpredictable costs over the long production cycle. The result is that people that just want to buy sheet metal parts in a SB kit have to subsidize a huge portion of the airplane manufacturing business.

If they keep raising prices on the basic kits to keep the other parts of the business open, then they're going to have fewer and fewer customers and dwindling business, just like the other airplane manufacturers whose prices have gone up astronomically and whose customer bases have all but disappeared.

My opinion is that they need to split the business up and have each company focus on one product type and drop the intercompany subsidizing.
Click to expand...

Agreed.. seems they are punishing the Slow builders with inflated kit prices to subsidize the QB kits..
 
Jslow2 said:
Yeah $3k for the top and bottom cowl makes the Sam James cowl look very affordable
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With the exception that now you can not delete it and must buy it, if I understand their announcement correctly.

This surely going to effect some third party vendors that sold upgrades outside of VANS.
 
APicard said:
The RV7 kit form is up now also. Something to note in the pricing. Fuselage kit went from $10500 to $14500 but now includes the electric trim and dual brakes as standard items rater then upgrades.

This seems to be the same for the other kit order forms also. They have made upgrades part of there standard parts list now.
Click to expand...

How are you guys seeing the kit order forms and prices? When I click on the black oval button on the top of their website that says "Order a Kit" it still comes up with the note that says they are updating and will be back soon.
 
scsmith said:
How are you guys seeing the kit order forms and prices? When I click on the black oval button on the top of their website that says "Order a Kit" it still comes up with the note that says they are updating and will be back soon.
Click to expand...

We found a back door!

It is via the Home page, then AIRCRAFT, then pick RV-7 from the drop-down. On the RV-7 specific page, click on the KIT ORDER FORM oval and it brings up the order form and price.
 
skelrad said:
This isn't just about shipping or streamlining day to day manufacturing ops. Someone first designed the part that you sketched up. If you're willing to build a plane that has no engineering behind it, then you are right that you could sketch out parts and have some guy in a shop manufacture the parts relatively cheaply. But outside of that, something has to pay for the thousands upon thousands of hours of engineering time, computers, prototype build, destructive testing, tech support, warehouse storage, etc that go into making the design that you copied. Think of the cost to pay engineers to design a plane for a couple of years before seeing the first dime from it. The customer has to pay for that time, not just pay for the cost to manufacture and ship the parts.

We got pretty spoiled with absolutely dirt cheap prices (relative to the rest of the market anyway) that I'm guessing didn't have solid accounting for all of the up front costs. Maybe it's an overcorrection now that will swing back a little over time. Who knows.
Click to expand...

I was thinking about that when I wrote overhead. The reason I didn’t point out design explicitly is that it’s a small part. Le’s say an engineer costs 200k a year with overhead. That’s 100$ an hour. If I recall correctly that part is at least in every RV-8 of which more than 1000 are flying. So giving the engineer 10 hours to design/test this part which is pretty conservative adds 1$ per part to the manufacturing cost or about 25%.

On the other hand I can see them spending 10+ $ on warehousing the part and receiving, processing and shipping the order if they are not set up efficiently.. .

Oliver
 
spatsch said:
I was thinking about that when I wrote overhead. The reason I didn’t point out design explicitly is that it’s a small part. Le’s say an engineer costs 200k a year with overhead. That’s 100$ an hour. If I recall correctly that part is at least in every RV-8 of which more than 1000 are flying. So giving the engineer 10 hours to design/test this part which is pretty conservative adds 1$ per part to the manufacturing cost or about 25%.

On the other hand I can see them spending 10+ $ on warehousing the part and receiving, processing and shipping the order if they are not set up efficiently.. .

Oliver
Click to expand...

Dont forget to take into consideration any SB rework that may come up with a part. Look at SB00036 for example it had 3 Revisions before it made it out to most builders.
 
bmellis11 said:
If they keep raising prices on the basic kits to keep the other parts of the business open, then they're going to have fewer and fewer customers and dwindling business, just like the other airplane manufacturers whose prices have gone up astronomically and whose customer bases have all but disappeared.
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Yes, I was one of those prospective customers.

Now fully out of the market. :(

First started looking a number of years ago, then had health problems for a while. Now I could have been back in the market, however prices in used aircraft as well as now Vans kits have doubled. Vans may make good hay on the current batch of customers, however, one could imagine in 3-5 years they will be selling kits at a far diminished rate...

-Paragon
 
Taltruda said:
Agreed.. seems they are punishing the Slow builders with inflated kit prices to subsidize the QB kits..
Click to expand...

I don't know about punishing but I do definitely agree that the premium they are charging for QB's is nowhere near enough considering the history of those things. IMHO, they appear to be subsidizing them with income from other parts of the business.

One of the reasons QB's have been so popular is that people knew they were getting a steal of a deal on them.
 
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