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  #21  
Old 06-02-2021, 09:05 PM
MacCool's Avatar
MacCool MacCool is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: central Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_Wischmeyer View Post
AMEN! The glass panel could easily be as big a deal as getting your stick and rudder skills back up. Beg, borrow or steal some time in the same kind of glass, regardless of what kind of airplane it's in.

I've tried to push the idea of training in similar glass for situations like yours, but the feds and vendors are opposed, for whatever reason.
My airplane has a round-gauge ASI, altimeter, and VSI. I've taken to using post-in notes to cover all three to "encourage" me to use my very sophisticated glass cockpit. Old habits do die hard, but I'll tell ya....I'll never go back.
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RV-9A, 2011, bought flying
IO-320D1A
IFR certified
AFS 5400/3500, G5, 430W, some other stuff
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  #22  
Old 06-02-2021, 09:47 PM
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Draker Draker is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Livermore, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacCool View Post
My airplane has a round-gauge ASI, altimeter, and VSI. I've taken to using post-in notes to cover all three to "encourage" me to use my very sophisticated glass cockpit. Old habits do die hard, but I'll tell ya....I'll never go back.
Funny you mention this. In addition to my glass, I also installed a steam altimeter and steam airspeed indicator into my panel, and I plan to initially set up the G5 as a HSI. The real reason for them is redundancy, but I have to admit they will be a nice crutch as I transition over to comfort with the glass panel. Maybe I should try not to rely on them and instead go all in on the glass.
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Ryan Drake
Livermore, CA
https://stiletto.smugmug.com/RV7
Donated 12/31/2020
RV-7A (N12VD): Everything done that can be done at home. Waiting for hangar to finish up.
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  #23  
Old 06-02-2021, 10:28 PM
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MacCool MacCool is offline
 
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Location: central Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draker View Post
Funny you mention this. In addition to my glass, I also installed a steam altimeter and steam airspeed indicator into my panel, and I plan to initially set up the G5 as a HSI. The real reason for them is redundancy, but I have to admit they will be a nice crutch as I transition over to comfort with the glass panel. Maybe I should try not to rely on them and instead go all in on the glass.
I had a round-gauge HSI when I picked up the plane, but shortly pulled it and replaced it with a G5. Now, with a full-on current-gen EFIS, dual GPS's, a dissimilar G5 as backup, and Foreflight on both my iPad and iPhone...I have no shortage of flight and navigation information. Certainly no need to use the round gauges, just need to break some habits.
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RV-9A, 2011, bought flying
IO-320D1A
IFR certified
AFS 5400/3500, G5, 430W, some other stuff
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  #24  
Old 06-02-2021, 11:11 PM
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PaulvS PaulvS is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 666
Default Steam ASI

A steam ASI can be really handy on base/final when the pilot's eyes are mostly outside and just needing to glance at the position of a needle to confirm that airspeed is OK, in my experience.

The RV-9A that I transitioned in has both steam gauges (ASI, altimeter, VSI) plus an older D100 EFIS and I admit I ignored the EFIS and just used the steam gauges.

The plane I'm flying now has got only glass and after 50 hours I'm comfortable and really like it, but still intend to put a steam ASI alongside the glass in the RV project, as backup for the pilot. The glass was a bit overwhelming at first because there is so much information presented together and the brain needs to learn where to look and how to filter and interpret.

I think you will benefit from the steam gauges at first, and then over time the glass will take over.
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Paul vS (yes I'm also a Van)
Building RV-6A #22320 O-320 FP. Wings and tail complete, working on fuselage
Flying my Aeroprakt A-22 STOL and the aero club's RV-9A while I build
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  #25  
Old 06-03-2021, 09:12 AM
wawrzynskivp wawrzynskivp is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Incline Village Nv
Posts: 71
Default Back up flight information

Everybody should have their own opinions, that's good.

Preferring an analog hand on a mechanical dial vs a digital presentation is right in there on the plateau of personal tastes. But I offer that the day is past when one can presume one to be more safe than another.

On early attempts at digital presentation I would agree there was something missing. Our eyes pick up motion and shape relationships much more quickly than processing the meaning of numerical characters. Since then the avionics folks have come a long way to combine motion and shapes along with the raw numbers in our digital displays. Enough so that in this person's opinion the difference is purely a matter of choice rather than readability.

There is no mechanical device that can offer the synthesis of information presented by a velocity vector or "flight path marker" placed accurately on a synthetic display of surrounding terrain. Learning how to use a flight path marker is critical to understanding the difference in the display formats.

I went with all glass, there it is. I expected and got some judgmental criticism about the lack of mechanical analog displays. When the critique took the form of judgement I always asked to hear the reasons. Generally speaking the justifications came from a place of reliable redundancy, a noble thing to pursue in aviation to be sure.

I could count on my system three layers of independently powered redundancy for each piece of flight information including completely isolated battery reserve, except the pitot static system itself of which I have only one heated pitot tube and two connected static ports with the ability to open the static side to cockpit pressure. Still single points of failure that most of us share. This didn't seem to appease those who believed that redundancy had to be displayed by a mechanical device.

Obviously when we are up against opinions the discussion often becomes less meaningful, often pointless.

I'm a guy that started flying in the DC-3 in the 70s, transitioned to glass when it came along, and am able with either.

So my opinion is this: Don't think you need a mechanical display because it is inherently safer as a fall back device. Sure there are scenarios one can contrive where only the mechanical device would continue. The same is true for contriving scenarios where only the mechanical device will fail.

Regarding the airspeed itself I am in the AoA camp rather than a floating speed reference. The RV does have some slightly tighter numbers when it comes to landing without a bounce on a short field owing to moderate wing loading. Many avionics packages now offer aural AoA feedback to let you hear a range of AoA rather than just the approach to stall. In that last phase of flight it is very nice to never have to bring your eyes inside at all for speed reference.

If you like the older style then install it, that's why the Experimental category exists! I just implore us to look rationally at whether each is actually a more "safe" device/display.

Not saying anyone here has fallen on one side or the other of this discussion, just sharing the experience of having had that one sided conversation way too many times. Perhaps again here.

Last edited by wawrzynskivp : 06-03-2021 at 09:32 AM.
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  #26  
Old 06-03-2021, 09:49 AM
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akschu akschu is offline
 
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A few comments.

The first time I flew glass it was odd feeling, but at the end of the day I knew how to fly the airplane and recognize what it was doing so I had some margin there. I don't think this is a big deal for you especially since you have an analog airspeed.

As far as learning to fly again, go get your tailwheel endorsement. While you don't need it to fly your airplane it will wire your head up for good stick and rudder skills which really make a difference in crosswind landings and mountain flying since your head becomes a yaw damper.

I think you would learn a lot more than 10 hours in a 172, and it's for sure more satisfying.
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  #27  
Old 06-03-2021, 10:07 AM
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MacCool MacCool is offline
 
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Location: central Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wawrzynskivp View Post
I went with all glass, there it is. I expected and got some judgmental criticism about the lack of mechanical analog displays. When the critique took the form of judgement I always asked to hear the reasons. Generally speaking the justifications came from a place of reliable redundancy, a noble thing to pursue in aviation to be sure.
No criticism from me, and I got my PPL long before anyone had even conceived of Global Positioning Satellites. It's 2021. Too many advantages and too much useful information immediately available from modern avionics. Time to move on.
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IFR certified
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  #28  
Old 06-03-2021, 02:18 PM
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keen9a keen9a is offline
 
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Location: St. Louis, MO
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I can't believe that no one has yet asked what the heck is this paper chart you mention! Actually probably a good idea to start in a new local since you can see it big, but you'll quickly forget about paper after that. For VFR grab an inexpensive tablet of your preference, and download several of the free EFB apps to find which one you like.

You're already ahead of the game with a plan. I agree with the others that it takes way less time to get back into it then you listed. Start with the glass panel C-172 if that worries you, but if you can do glass on a pc flight sim, its not really different in the airplane. I used the AFS-4500 six pack display on my first flight, and then never looked at it again. It is personal preference, but to me the glass presentation is way better.

Mr. Seager will teach you what to do with the blue knob (its not that hard), and when he signs you off, you will be ready, and most insurance will accept his endorsement.

PS it will be hard to fly those Cessna things after you feel the control and performance of the RV!
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  #29  
Old 06-11-2021, 08:02 PM
hpdmp3486 hpdmp3486 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Magnolia Tx
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30 years between flying. Bought a used RV9A with the help of an experienced vans builder and pilot. Did 25 hours of Rusty pilot training in a Archer, found out my radio work was bad, was much more comfortable aborting takeoffs and landings when things did not feel right in my old age. Did another 20 hours of transitioning into my RV9A and got my 3rd class medical and BFR signed off. Still learning, still getting comfortable, still getting used to a very responsive aircraft and the glass panel. Just went through my second annual, learning and getting better with taking it apart and putting it back together. Also mentor at a local high school building a RV12. Went to Oshkosh this winter and last year and took the EAA electrical and sheet metal building classes. Very busy but what a ride!!
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  #30  
Old 06-12-2021, 01:13 AM
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rv8ch rv8ch is offline
 
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Location: LSGY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draker View Post
Funny you mention this. In addition to my glass, I also installed a steam altimeter and steam airspeed indicator into my panel, and I plan to initially set up the G5 as a HSI. The real reason for them is redundancy, but I have to admit they will be a nice crutch as I transition over to comfort with the glass panel. Maybe I should try not to rely on them and instead go all in on the glass.
I installed analog "backups" as well and expected to use them a lot while I transitioned to glass. In the end, I never look at them. The "transition" to glass that's needed to replace ASI/VSI/Alt is about 30 seconds. For heading, I'm still experimenting with finding the right setting of track/heading and gps/magnetic. I only have a "whiskey" compass because it's required. I do still like my mechanical ball slip indicator, gotta confess.
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