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  #11  
Old 10-04-2012, 07:39 AM
wrongway john wrongway john is offline
 
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I was hoping to get to it through the flat end on the front of the rudder to get to it. It’s got room for about a 1½” hole which I hope I could get a wrench in there for both nuts. I would hate to go from up top, which I guess means cutting two small holes big enough for the nut driver. I’m not going to do anything until I get the drawings, then I’ll have a little better idea of how I want to go about this. Thanks.
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  #12  
Old 10-04-2012, 09:50 AM
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Neal@F14 Neal@F14 is offline
 
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You might find the nuts counter-sunk deep enough into the lead weight that you cannot get an end-wrench on them coming in from a hole in the front portion of the fiberglass.

However you cut the fiberglass to get to them, I'd put some LocTite on the threads before tightening it down. Since they came loose, I'm wondering if maybe the nuts used were not locknuts, but plain nuts. Even with locknuts, I'd add LocTite to them anyway.... and probably use the red formula to ensure it ain't gonna come loose again.
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  #13  
Old 10-04-2012, 03:18 PM
wrongway john wrongway john is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neal@F14 View Post
You might find the nuts counter-sunk deep enough into the lead weight that you cannot get an end-wrench on them coming in from a hole in the front portion of the fiberglass.
Van?s immediately sent me a drawing, and you?re right about them being countersunk, so I?ll come in from the top with a nut driver as others suggested.

Quote:
However you cut the fiberglass to get to them, I'd put some LocTite on the threads before tightening it down. Since they came loose, I'm wondering if maybe the nuts used were not locknuts, but plain nuts. Even with locknuts, I'd add LocTite to them anyway.... and probably use the red formula to ensure it ain't gonna come loose again.
Makes sense to me, and am going to do just that. I?m curious now as to what kind of nuts they used myself, will find out soon.
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  #14  
Old 10-04-2012, 03:38 PM
Bavafa Bavafa is offline
 
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Location: Sacramento, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrongway john View Post
Makes sense to me, and am going to do just that. I?m curious now as to what kind of nuts they used myself, will find out soon.
Try to view the counter weight on the sides and make sure it is not being held up by the rivets end. One other possibility is that the nut was bottomed out. As I recall, I had to put two washers to make sure my nut is not bottoming out.
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  #15  
Old 10-06-2012, 01:48 PM
wrongway john wrongway john is offline
 
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After studying the drawings Van?s sent me, I decided to go ahead on the end after all. I used a 1 3/8th hole saw. It gave me plenty of room to see everything, and get either a small socket or box end in there with no problem. Both work quite well, only really need one or the other.

I didn?t see any problems on what could have caused these two nuts to back out. They were the locknuts that were supposed to be on them. Both had the washers. I tightened them all back down at first, to see if they would, and they did. Then took the bolts, washers and nuts all out to look at it some more. I used strong hand pressure to see if the locknut could go on that way, but it was still tight, and wouldn?t go any further after a few turns indicating to me the locknuts are still just fine. This 8 rudder is only 4 years old, and probably doesn?t have 200 hours on it. As another suggested, I did check to see if the lead weight was resting on any rivet. It wasn?t, it was nice and flat. The nuts still had threads to spare on the bolts, so they weren't bottomed out.

Neal, what red stuff are you referring too? The red silicone I have in the pic? Should I cover the top of the threads and nut with it after I use some Loctite or equivalent on threads too?

Here are the tools I used along with a few other things.

If you?re wondering what the magnets are for, well, here goes. The nut to the back bolt fell off, and there was a very small opening at the rear where it fell down further into the rudder. It went completely out of sight. I located it about 6? further down into the rudder before it caught on the stiffener. I knew it was there, because I would take my magnet, and it would rattle around. Since the plane is aluminum and non-magnetic, and the nut was magnetic, I was only picking up on it.

I took the long claw pick that has magnets on it (Harbor Freight, best $2.00 I ever spent) and placed it horizontally as far as it would go in the opening I cut and let it rest there. I then took the machinists magnetic base and put it between my plane and a piece of paper to keep from scratching my paint. I slowly wriggled it back up to the top, hoping I could get it to stick to the other magnet pick up. The magnetic base has a on and off switch which I turned off when at top hoping it would catch on the other magnet. I didn?t hear anything drop back down. Went to gently pull the magnetic claw pick out, and sure enough the nut was on there! I got it out the first try! Man that was fun! I rarely get that lucky.

Even if I wasn?t able to retrieve it with the magnet, it was still loose in there, and I could have took off the three nuts to the rudder, then undo the tail wheel clips, pulled the whole thing out, turned it upside down, and shake it out that way.

I?m showing the other 150 lb magnet from Harbor Freight in the pic to show you that one that didn?t work. The force was too spread out to lift the nut, but the other one shown you can also get at HF works great, and has plenty of lifting power along with a on and off switch which I think helps keep your object from being lost again, by gently releasing the magnetic force.

Now just wondering if I should re-use the same nuts, or go with two new locknuts? For extra insurance I?m going to use something like threadlock no 71 which I already have, unless others advise against it and instead think I should go with Loctite. I?d use it if I could find it locally. I?ll just have to order through mail and wait a week or so to get it.

I hope this helps others, and do your Vanhead friends a favor, and remind them to check those two bolts each time on every preflight. Nobody will ever have to remind me.
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  #16  
Old 04-25-2018, 08:51 PM
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donaziza donaziza is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrongway john View Post
My 6 has a RV-8 tail, and during the condition inspection today, we came across this:



The two screws are loose, won?t tighten nor will they come out. My A&P wrote Van?s which will send him rudder drawings. The front screw has another little hole beside it; not sure if it has a purpose or somebody did a screw up. Had any of these screws come down another few thousands on an inch, it could have easily caught on the vertical stabilizer. This has got bad news written all over it. Looks like I?ll have to drill out some rivets to get to it.

I?ll be making this a part of my pre-flight inspections from here on out.

Anyone else experience this?
Yeah, I had a mechanic point to one of these screws backing out on my 1st RV 8. ( I wasn't a builder) SHAZBUTT!! I now regularly pre-flight these screws
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  #17  
Old 04-26-2018, 05:41 PM
rightrudder rightrudder is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyboy1963 View Post

Part of most walk-arounds is to; remove all control locks, move the control surfaces to their full travel, look at all gaps and hinges, listen for chafing, and of course, verify all weights, cables, pushrods, hinges, fasteners are secure and clear.
THe downside of an -A model is that it's not easy to grab the rudder tip and check for security, but if you want to be thorough, go grab the ladder from the Cessna beside you, and get up and look things over. Don't be surprised if the top of the VS is full of bird ****!
Another good thing is to grab both sides of the elevator and check for differential movement. If any is detected, it most likely means your control horns-to-pushrod bolt is loose!
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  #18  
Old 04-26-2018, 09:58 PM
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goatflieg goatflieg is offline
 
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This thread had me heading out to the shop to stare at my rudder a bit; metal work done for a while but tips not on yet. Want to head this problem off before closing it up, but don't want to add the weight of a top plate on the lead. Was wondering... what about a single ply of fiberglass along the bottom of the counterweight to keep the screws in place... and some epoxy around the nuts and possibly the base of the weight to hopefully keep it from shifting and loosening... or will the malleability of the lead defeat all this? I'm thinking that if this is going to be a sealed area, it should be treated as non-serviceable, therefore sealing the screws won't be an issue. Just pondering here...
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  #19  
Old 04-26-2018, 10:21 PM
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CubedRoot CubedRoot is offline
 
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This is something that always concerned me about my RV-7 build. The RV-7 rudder has a metal skin covering the "box" that the counterweight sits in, and theres no easy way to get to those bolts to check their tightness during an inspection.

Here's what I am talking about:



If I had to ever tighten those nuts, would it be OK to take the fiberglass fairing off, and then enlarge the holes (pink arrow) in the R-903 tip rib to fit a nut driver in there?

Or would you drill a hole in the forward side of the R-913 counterbalance skin to get a wrench in there and hope you could get it in the countersunk holes for the nuts?

Additionally, I am kind of in agreement with Martin. Might it be a good idea to do a "wrap" of thin fiberglass cloth around the screw heads and around the fiberglass tip? That would certainly help keep the screws from falling down and jamming the rudder. Even if the counterweight (on an RV-7 rudder like above) got completely loose, it would be trapped in its little metal box made by the skin and 912 and 903 ribs.
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Last edited by CubedRoot : 04-26-2018 at 10:24 PM.
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  #20  
Old 04-27-2018, 06:31 AM
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BillL BillL is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CubedRoot View Post
This is something that always concerned me about my RV-7 build. The RV-7 rudder has a metal skin covering the "box" that the counterweight sits in, and theres no easy way to get to those bolts to check their tightness during an inspection.

Here's what I am talking about:

If I had to ever tighten those nuts, would it be OK to take the fiberglass fairing off, and then enlarge the holes (pink arrow) in the R-903 tip rib to fit a nut driver in there?

Or would you drill a hole in the forward side of the R-913 counterbalance skin to get a wrench in there and hope you could get it in the countersunk holes for the nuts?

Additionally, I am kind of in agreement with Martin. Might it be a good idea to do a "wrap" of thin fiberglass cloth around the screw heads and around the fiberglass tip? That would certainly help keep the screws from falling down and jamming the rudder. Even if the counterweight (on an RV-7 rudder like above) got completely loose, it would be trapped in its little metal box made by the skin and 912 and 903 ribs.
This is a little more complicated than it might need to be. Two issues, coming loose, and checking it after the part is constructed.

1. Coming loose. The lead is not real solid due to they way it has been cast. It also is softer than, say, a lead balance weight. I bought some extra weights for another purpose and tested it's ability to accept standard torque. It wouldn't , the lead would embed even a standard washer. If your weight is like this there is no way it will stay tight in service. I machined an aluminum washer/spacer with a diameter of the counter bore and retested the torque acceptance to 30 in lb. It was nice and hard.
2. Retorqing. A couple of nut plates attached to a strip of aluminum in place of the nuts will allow a one sided check/retorque of the nuts. This is a standard design now for the RV14. But they still have not addressed the spacer issue, so take note.

Just because I was going belt and suspenders, I bedded my weight in proseal per recommendation from Walt. Likely overkill with good torque retention.
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