VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

-POSTING RULES
-Advertise in here!
- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

Keep VAF Going
Donate methods

Point your
camera app here
to donate fast.


Go Back   VAF Forums > Model Specific > RV-8/8A
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #11  
Old 01-04-2010, 09:01 AM
RV7Guy's Avatar
RV7Guy RV7Guy is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 2,932
Default Work Great

I love the arguments for and against zip ties vs lacing cord. I'll bet many of the same folks, will have a shiny new EFIS backed up by a bunch of archaic steam gauges. Back then, there was no reasonable alternative to tie wires or replacement for steam gauges. Technology advances and new stuff is invented. The zip ties are one example as are the incredible electronics we now have. The internet allows us to get our underwear in a wad over virtually any issue. Entertaining but mostly without merit.

Zip ties are quick, efficient and just as good as lacing cord. The downside of course is the potential scratches and cuts you can get. As Paul noted, they are not illegal and I'm sure never will be.

For use FWF, get the high temp versions and use with confidence. I had many standard Home Depot zip ties in my engine compartment that lasted through the high temps we deal with in AZ. I have since replaced all of them with the high temp units.

For any contact with the engine mount, I simply use one wrap of the red silicon tape (Rescue tape) before using zip ties or adel clamps. After attaching and cutting a zip tie, I use a razor blade and trim it flush with the housing. In most cases you can get to them.

I have also started using the new "belt" style ties. With a little practice they work much better, look great and you don't get cut.

Finally, the helicopters I fly for work run about 3 million each, all turbine powered. 2 of them made by Eurocopter, the other by Bell. Behind the panel, under the engine cowling and the transmission cowling you'll find only zip ties, no lacing cord. This has got to say something.
__________________
Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
www.JDair.com
RV-7 N717EE-Flying (Sold)
RV-7 N717AZ Flying, in paint
EMS Bell 407,
Eurocopter 350 A-Star Driver
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-05-2010, 01:05 PM
Toobuilder's Avatar
Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,735
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RV7Guy View Post
...Finally, the helicopters I fly for work run about 3 million each, all turbine powered. 2 of them made by Eurocopter, the other by Bell. Behind the panel, under the engine cowling and the transmission cowling you'll find only zip ties, no lacing cord. This has got to say something.

It says a lot... First thing that comes to mind is that these are manufactured by employees who are paid by the hour... The company wants the aircraft kicked out the door as fast as possible and zip ties are "good enough"...

Zip ties are great and may "meet" requirements, but I still think Adel clamps and string tie is "better".
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.

Michael Robinson
______________
Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C

Last edited by Toobuilder : 01-05-2010 at 01:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-06-2010, 05:36 AM
RV8R999 RV8R999 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: na
Posts: 1,457
Default

I agree adel clamps are far superior in strength and reliability but they are a royal pain to install, they are much heavier and when using to secure cable runs - overkill. Plus they decrease the workable unobstructed volume in the engine compartment since they stand-off about 1.5" from the engine mount for the length of the cable run.

The engineer in me agrees with the hourly worker - if its quicker, lighter, easier, and yes CHEAPER and it does the job then it is better. However, since we are all building our own "custom" airplanes to each his own.

At the Naval Test Pilot School there is a slogan above one of the classrooms that reads "Better is the enemy of good enough". I agree.

2c,

Ken
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-06-2010, 08:51 AM
Build9A's Avatar
Build9A Build9A is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Shellmans Bluff, GA
Posts: 517
Default examples

I've read this thread regarding zip ties and started wondering if I had made a mistake in using them FWF. Mine are home depot quality except below the engine where I used high temp. I always inspect them at the annual and have not seen any obvious problems. 4 years and counting and getting ready for my next condition inspection. After reading this I think I will replace them all with new ones. But I am going to leave a few in place to see how long they last.

Does anyone have any examples or pictures of where zip ties actually caused damage to their engine mount? or some other real problem?

thanks
__________________
RV9A N489JE - Flying
Eagle Neck Airpark
Shellmans Bluff, Georgia
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-06-2010, 09:17 AM
dan's Avatar
dan dan is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: ...
Posts: 2,049
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RV7Guy View Post
After attaching and cutting a zip tie, I use a razor blade and trim it flush with the housing.
Or you can use a tie wrap puller such as a Panduit GS2B. I've found 'em on ebay used for not too much. They make tensioning and flush-cutting one-step and pretty much idiotproof.

__________________
Dan Checkoway RV-7
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-06-2010, 10:00 AM
the_other_dougreeves the_other_dougreeves is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Dallas, TX (ADS)
Posts: 2,180
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RV8R999 View Post
The engineer in me agrees with the hourly worker - if its quicker, lighter, easier, and yes CHEAPER and it does the job then it is better. However, since we are all building our own "custom" airplanes to each his own.

At the Naval Test Pilot School there is a slogan above one of the classrooms that reads "Better is the enemy of good enough". I agree.
To expand on this, every airplane's design and construction can be made better. However, at some point, the airplane has to be judged "good enough and turned loose to go fly, unless you want the aviation version of the Winchester Mansion, or if you want to be the aviation version of Chip Foose, who regularly spends over $1,000,000 building a custom hot rod. As you say, it's up to each of us to decide what is "good enough". Zip ties are good enough for me for most applications.

Applying the concept to one's flying skills is a little different - our skills should always be improving as we age and gather experiences, and those skills quickly deteriorate when not applied. The same isn't true of an airplane's design - it's the same as it was built until we change it.

TODR
__________________
Doug "The Other Doug Reeves" Reeves
CTSW N621CT - SOLD but not forgotten
Home Bases LBX, BZN
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-06-2010, 10:18 AM
Ed_Wischmeyer's Avatar
Ed_Wischmeyer Ed_Wischmeyer is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 1,378
Default

As I understand it -- if I do -- the problem with zip ties on the motor mount is that they can capture grit and that grit, not the zip tie, starts abrading the motor mount. Adel clamps are the high class (not to mention high cost and high hassle) solution. Of course, once the grit has chewed through the paint on the motor mount, then you've got a repair job.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-07-2010, 12:00 AM
jarhead jarhead is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 264
Default

Quoting myself...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarhead View Post
Go here and read paragraph 11-96(b) and (o), then read paragraph 11-146, (a) and (b).

Left alone long enough, a ziptie will cut through the engine mount tubing like a saw - dirt and oil gets between the plastic & steel and acts like a wet saw. I just replaced part of an engine mount on a Bell 412 helicopter due to it being damaged beyond limits by zipties holding drainlines in place. It's been just about a year since this aircraft had last been in to see us (it's in for an annual); there were no zipties on the engine mounts when it last left us.

If you don't want to use Adel clamps everywhere, pick some place other than FWF on your RV...
__________________
Ken

Helicopter mechanic (A&P)
USAFR KC-10 Boom Operator, on final approach to retirement
My RV-9/8/7 dream may be on life support, but it ain't dead yet!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-07-2010, 08:05 AM
brianwallis's Avatar
brianwallis brianwallis is offline
VAF moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: In Walter Mitty's dreams
Posts: 947
Default Not if you can help it...

I've seen a lot of damage from(loose install) zip ties and firmly reccomend adel clamps, use the force.......... Don't win a Darwin Award.
__________________
Brian Wallis
(Exempt AND VAF dues paid 02 FEB 16)
Callsign: VOODOO sold RV3 to pay for ratings !!!
AP/IA COM/Multi/IFR/350 type

Last edited by brianwallis : 01-07-2010 at 11:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-07-2010, 09:52 AM
Snowflake's Avatar
Snowflake Snowflake is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sidney, BC, Canada
Posts: 4,075
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dan View Post
Or you can use a tie wrap puller such as a Panduit GS2B. I've found 'em on ebay used for not too much. They make tensioning and flush-cutting one-step and pretty much idiotproof.
I picked up two of these for $10 from Boeing Surplus back when they used to sell such things. I now keep one in my tool box at work and the other at home. We had a Panduit rep in to my office a number of years ago who saw mine and asked where I got it... I told him, and he said that it's likely that one of the Boeing employees had dropped it in the "scrap" bin and was planning to pick it up in the Surplus store the next day for home use. Apparently that was quite common (maybe it's why there's no Boeing Surplus anymore...). He said they were about $250 each new.
__________________
Rob Prior
1996 RV-6 "Tweety" C-FRBP (formerly N196RV)
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:02 PM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.