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Radio Calls - "Any Traffic In The Area Please Advise."

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Geico266

Geico266

Well Known Member
This phrase has been deemed by the FAA in the AIMS as being "unnecessary".

Copied from the link:

One of the changes that has appeared in the 2007 AIM is in section 4-1-9(g).
Allow me to quote it for you:

"Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast their position or intended flight activity or ground operation on the designated CTAF . . . Pilots stating 'Traffic in the area please advise' is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition."

http://www.faa-ground-school.com/library/Any-Traffic-Please-Advise.htm

Okay, but this does not mean there are not circumstances where it is helpful. An example; On flight following from Lincoln, NE (KLNK) to Crete, NE (KCEK) (a distance of 16 miles) the approach guys will hold you to their frequency and kick you loose 4-5 miles from Crete. In an RV, traveling about 180MPH on decent you can eat up that remaining distance to the pattern in a matter of seconds. There are times when I make the switch and transmit my position and intentions, and ask for traffic. While I think the subject phrase may be overused, I think there are times when it is okay AFTER stating your position, altitude, and intentions.

What started this (never ending) debate again for me was not going into Crete, rather flying into KC yesterday I heard a guy say it, and another pilot scold him for it! I could not believe my ears! On 122.800 (In the busy KC area) to have one pilot scold another for phraseology was pretty bad. He even said this phrase is "forbidden".

Where is the civility among pilots? I hear pilots say some silly stuff, but I know what they mean, or I can figure it out, if not I ask, but I would never dream of "confronting" someone on the radio to correct them (Except the moron that was scolding the other pilot.)

Can't we all just get along? :confused:

Thanks for the rant, I feel better now. ;)
 
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'Traffic in the area please advise' is a waste of time ... at lease in our area I don't respond and don't hear many respond either. I make the normal pattern calls. At our airport we have more than a few 'No Radio' planes flying around ... you really need to slow down 5 miles out or stay high and over fly the airport to check out the pattern.


my .02...
 
Radio call annoyances...

"AAAAANNNNNNDDDDDD.........." Speaking of annoying radio calls, count how many times you hear them prefaced with "And..."!

As for the ones asking for traffic in the area, one of these days I really am going to answer "XYZ traffic, Experimental 123 is 37 miles South, 2500-ft, maneuvering."
 
When I hear....

'Traffic in the area please advise', I am most likely to transmit back 'look our your window and see if you can see me I am out here somewhere'.

I kind of wonder about the pilot. Does he/she have poor eye site? Don't know how to fly the pattern? What advise should I give this pilot? 'Stay away from my airport, go fly somewhere else'.

I seems poor etiquette for you to want me to do your looking for you. After all I am already looking around my plane to make sure no one is near me.

If your short of time to do your job correctly, then slow down or get a slower plane.

Kent
 
This kind of talk on the radio doesn't bother me as much as the, Hay... how was dinner last night. Or how about this one, are you going... tonight. With a continued talk about the personal life, with no breaks for those who need the freq.
 
guilty... i've said it before..... when i was a new student...


and once when i was at an unfamiliar airport, i knew there was a few in the pattern, and i was sure one of them should have been on base or final.. but didn't make any calls... and i was at the hold short and looked everywhere but couldn't find him.... so i said "any traffic on base or final, please adivse" someone else replied that there was a blue Cessna who was only making random radio calls that was low (hidden by trees from me) just turning final. :eek:

i wasn't gonna take the runway without being 100% sure it was clear, but it was nice that someone replied with a real answer and not some smart remark that was unhelpful.

but chances are i won't ask "any traffic please advise" anymore :)
 
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Biggest annoyance for me personally is when people say "10-4". Gimme a break. We get that quite a bit here in the South.

Also, I have a huge pet peeve when people announce instrument procedures on the frequency. Nobody, even instrument-rated pilots, knows where the ZYX intersection is unless they're familiar with the area. Even when you say you're, for example, on the "GPS approach for runway 3", that still gives NO indication what part of the approach you're actually flying and how far you are from the field.

Third thing is when people call up unicom and ask what the active is at a non-towered airport. There is NO SUCH THING as an active runway at a non-towered airport.

Also, people should say the name of the airport at the beginning and the end of each transmission (within reason).

People should know what they're going to say before they say it.

Hmm...I think that's about it. :D But of course I know that I'm probably preaching to the choir.
 
Runway 8

And there aint no zero in runway 8. Pet peeve of mine is spam can N1234D final for zero eight. Now if your in Canada it's a different story, they got zeros in front of them numbers.
 
I've ranted here before...

... How 'bout this one?
Using the full call sign (N1234X) as if we all know who you are. N1234X on downwind. N1234X on final, N1234X five out. Are you a Cub, a Gulfstream, a 747? Is that Cessna that I see ahead of me N1234X, or somebody else? Unless there's a good reason to do it, I'll often just use "RV turning final..." or "blue RV left downwind"

It's always fun to pull up to the ramp at a new airport after you've called yourself "pink and purple Piper Pacer" on the radio for ten minutes. :D

...AAAAND that's all I've got. 10-4. Anybody disagree - please advise!
 
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reference the AIRPORT

when giving position reports. "Smallville traffic, N123FF is 10 north of the field, manuvering at 8500, Smallville". The flight school students at a nearby State University have a bad habit of giving position reports referencing local landmarks such as "the cheese ponds" or "the temple" or small villages. I live 30 miles away and I don't know where these places are. Imagine what transient pilots think.

No officer, it wasn't me who referenced the nudist camp and brewery.
Steve
 
Jamie said:
Biggest annoyance for me personally is when people say "10-4". Gimme a break. We get that quite a bit here in the South.
Click to expand...
I do live in the South and the guy I flew with this morning did exactly that.

JDRhodes said:
... How 'bout this one?
Using the full call sign (N1234X) as if we all know who you are. N1234X on downwind. N1234X on final, N1234X five out. Are you a Cub, a Gulfstream, a 747? Is that Cessna that I see ahead of me N1234X, or somebody else? Unless there's a good reason to do it, I'll often just use "RV turning final..." or "blue RV left downwind"
Click to expand...
This, along with the "Please Advise" is a big one of mine. The reason I was told to use the aircraft type is because there could be two planes in the pattern by saying the type of aircraft, you give that third airplane in the pattern an idea of who you are and what you are going to do. No way is he ever going to read your N-number but he will be able to tell the difference between a Cessna and a Cherokee.

As for the "Please Advise", I once started giving the guy advice on how to land. It was so funny and took him a while to figure out why. Never heard that from him before.

My last gripe is when guys at uncontrolled airports tell the world they are going to taxi from their hangar to the fuel pumps, runway, or over to Joe's for Pizza. I don't really care, just let me know if you are going to take the active runway, that's all I need to know.
 
N941WR said:
IMy last gripe is when guys at uncontrolled airports tell the world they are going to taxi from their hangar to the fuel pumps, runway, or over to Joe's for Pizza. I don't really care, just let me know if you are going to take the active runway, that's all I need to know.
Click to expand...


RLOL now thats funny!
 
DOH! Active runway?

I hear people on the CTAF here (non-towered airport) all the time advertising they are "taking the active" when no one else is flying...and they do it so often, they don't even announce which runway IS "their" active. How about those that say "clear of the active" without adding a runway number on the end...If I'm going to land or take off and haven't agreed on whether your active is my active...how does that help? Runway number is just SO much less ambiguous than "active." <rant off> Are instructors teaching their students to do this now?
 
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"The Active"

I am always tempted to respond to "taking the active" with "where are you planning on taking it?" "Taking the active" is just as meaningless as "any traffic please advise." Clear position reports and stating intentions with the airport name keeps it simple and safe.

John Clark
FAAST Team Member
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
JDRhodes said:
...AAAAND that's all I've got. 10-4. Anybody disagree - please advise!
Click to expand...
LOL. All joking aside, I think you hit it on the head. No need for full callsigns.

Here's another thing- there is no need, ever, for the word "Experimental" to be uttered on a unicom freq. The word carries no useful information at all. If you say "Experiemntal RV" that is redundant. If you use only the "Experimental 12345" which I often hear, I don't know if I'm looking for a Lancair iV or a Breezy.

If anyone disagrees with this idea, I'd be curious to hear your reasoning. I enjoy this discussion and I think it is a valid one.

Here's my last point- I like the idea of starting transmissions with "And..." People have a tendency to chop off the first word of a transmission. I see it all the time at work (law enforcement communications) and while flying. Since the first word is usually the location, the world hears "...traffic, Cessna 12345...) which is worse than useless. Start your transmission with "and" and the word that gets cut is- guess what?
 
Okay what about those low time pilots, such as myself, that don't know better and just learning from the local non-towered airports? What are we to do when this is what we hear before being "corrected" at another airport? I thought this was good safety thing. I'm still searching for traffic but a llittle help which way to point my nose to find you would help from killing you.

I fly an experimental Pazmany PL-1 (N2029), what should I be saying to appease those that already know better than us? Should it be something like "Pazmany two zero two niner, 5 miles NW, inboud rwy 28 full stop"

Even then hardly anyone knows what the h*ll a Pazmany is.
 
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At non-towered airports you should use whatever makes sense to other people in the area. Even "Red & White low wing left down wind runway 17" would be sufficient.
I don't use the "full stop" till turning final. Saying this 5 miles out is useless. By the time you get to final, everyone has forgotten.
 
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N941WR said:
My last gripe is when guys at uncontrolled airports tell the world they are going to taxi from their hangar to the fuel pumps, runway, or over to Joe's for Pizza. I don't really care, just let me know if you are going to take the active runway , that's all I need to know.
Click to expand...

Sometimes, it's not a bad idea. Last week I announced I was taxiing from the ramp to Runway 34. The reason was, that Runway 34 is the designated "calm wind" runway................and no wind was blowing. No other aircraft were using the airport, at that moment either.

In the meantime, two Cessna's who are closer to the opposite Runway 16, announce their taxi to that runway. Now we get someone entering the pattern, who hears the Cessna transmission for runway 16, and begins to do touch & goes on Runway 16.

So tell me.....................what's the "active runway" here? :D

L.Adamson
 
pazmanyflyer said:
...I fly an experimental Pazmany PL-1 (N2029), what should I be saying to appease those that already know better than us? Should it be something like "Pazmany two zero two niner, 5 miles NW, inboud rwy 28 full stop"

Even then hardly anyone knows what the h*ll a Pazmany is.
Click to expand...
Try this:
"Experimental Pazmany two zero two niner, 5 miles NW, rwy 28"

Adding the word Experimental tells people to look for something unusual.
 
But....

Anyone who has been through a recent ppl, at least here in Canada has been taught to announce the heck out of yourself when entering a non towered a/d, keep updating, announce leaving the zone and of course all pattern positions.
Advise you are entering the area, positions and intentions. The instructors beat that into us that you cant really give to much info and that you need to talk lots. Since passing and getting my ticket of course its much stream lined...but..the other side of the coin is flying into an uncontrolled, entering correctly and making all calls and poof, turn final and some other is on a straight in with NO proper joining technique, no radio call.....but its his home a/d so that is just the way it is. Common sense works, but let us newbies mellow with time. Old timers dont forget the rules either.....as there are a few that dont seem to have a clue either. Fly often have fun and be safe.
Did a cross country today, landed at a small uncontrolled. The old timer in the shack wanted to give me and my wife his truck for the afternoon. Love aviation folks....best there are.
 
RickWoodall said:
Anyone who has been through a recent ppl, at least here in Canada has been taught to announce the heck out of yourself when entering a non towered a/d, keep updating, announce leaving the zone and of course all pattern positions.
Advise you are entering the area, positions and intentions. The instructors beat that into us that you cant really give to much info and that you need to talk lots. Since passing and getting my ticket of course its much stream lined...but..the other side of the coin is flying into an uncontrolled, entering correctly and making all calls and poof, turn final and some other is on a straight in with NO proper joining technique, no radio call.....but its his home a/d so that is just the way it is. Common sense works, but let us newbies mellow with time. Old timers dont forget the rules either.....as there are a few that dont seem to have a clue either. Fly often have fun and be safe.
Did a cross country today, landed at a small uncontrolled. The old timer in the shack wanted to give me and my wife his truck for the afternoon. Love aviation folks....best there are.
Click to expand...

I'm agreeing totally!

Now that my RV is flying, it's much too easy to overtake a slower Cessna, Piper, or helicopter if I don't know where they are! Before (while flying the spam cans), I could just keep normal pace with those "slugs". With the subdivisions surrounding our airport, the aircraft seem to blend in much of the time. It's very easy to loose sight of one, while looking for another. And I'm certainly not the only one with this problem. Therefor, I want those position reports......pronto!

Besides, I live under the pattern, and prefer to see it as safe as possible. :)

L.Adamson
 
My other pet peeve is people calling non-towered airports uncontrolled. If it's in class E airspace, it's controlled airspace. If it's in class G, it's truly uncontrolled. The proper term is non-towered or towered airport. ;-)
 
Sorry about that Jamie...

I've always called them that because that's what I've always heard them called. You are right of course and I promise to mend my ways. I have corrected my previous post.
Thanks for getting me back on the right path.
 
CB language on unicom.............

About 20 years ago I was towing gliders at Stead Airport (where the Air Races are held). I listened to the sound of an open mike followed by the background voice of an obvious instructor. The voice said, ".....now give Stead Unicom a call and ask for a traffic advisory." There was a long pause, but still the mike was keyed. Finally the student spoke, "Ahhhhh...Ahhhhh...ahh Breaker-Breaker Stead Unicom. Come on back with a traffic advisory." :rolleyes:
 
Semantics...

Jamie said:
My other pet peeve is people calling non-towered airports uncontrolled. If it's in class E airspace, it's controlled airspace. If it's in class G, it's truly uncontrolled. The proper term is non-towered or towered airport. ;-)
Click to expand...

Class E or G, I would like to think that the airspace around the airport is, in fact, pilot controlled.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
More Commo is Better

If I'm flying near an airport and someone asks "Any traffic, please advise" I'm happy to give them my location. Given the choice between a mid-air (or even a near miss) and some "improper" communication, I'll take the latter. Keep talking out there.

...Joe
 
I fly part 121 jets when I'm at work. Occasionally we operate into an airport after the tower is closed.

I'm in radio contact with approach control until on final (usually). So the position reports on CTAF are made on a second radio.

It would be nice to monitor CTAF and get a feel for where everyone is. But I am a man, and therefore not a real good multitasker. I'm already monitoring ATC calls and running checklists.

"Any traffic please advise" is just a chance to devote my attention to the CTAF 100% for a few seconds to see what's going on. May **** off the radio monitors but I can take it.

Did I mention we're doing all this at 180 knots? Usually after dark?
 
Annnnnnd....while getting ready to depart Bremerton last weekend, a fine uncontrolled, er, non-towered airport, the stuck mike issue came up:
Pilot 1 (Spamcan): So Steve, how much do you weigh?
Guy 2 (Pax in Spamcan): a hundred and eighty
Pilot 1: you do not weigh one-eighty
Guy 2: sure I do
Pilot 3 (fellow RV'r): I used to weigh one eighty
Pilot 4 (another RV'r): yea, me too

So, this exchange really didn't fall within the AIM guidance, but at the time, it was pretty funny.
 
It's Redundant, Demanding, Vague, and Verboten!

Geico266 said:
This phrase has been deemed by the FAA in the AIMS as being "unnecessary".

Copied from the link:

One of the changes that has appeared in the 2007 AIM is in section 4-1-9(g).
Allow me to quote it for you:

"Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast their position or intended flight activity or ground operation on the designated CTAF . . . Pilots stating 'Traffic in the area please advise' is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition."

http://www.faa-ground-school.com/library/Any-Traffic-Please-Advise.htm

Okay, but this does not mean there are not circumstances where it is helpful. An example; On flight following from Lincoln, NE (KLNK) to Crete, NE (KCEK) (a distance of 16 miles) the approach guys will hold you to their frequency and kick you loose 4-5 miles from Crete. In an RV, traveling about 180MPH on decent you can eat up that remaining distance to the pattern in a matter of seconds. There are times when I make the switch and transmit my position and intentions, and ask for traffic. While I think the subject phrase may be overused, I think there are times when it is okay AFTER stating your position, altitude, and intentions.

What started this (never ending) debate again for me was not going into Crete, rather flying into KC yesterday I heard a guy say it, and another pilot scold him for it! I could not believe my ears! On 122.800 (In the busy KC area) to have one pilot scold another for phraseology was pretty bad. He even said this phrase is "forbidden".

Where is the civility among pilots? I hear pilots say some silly stuff, but I know what they mean, or I can figure it out, if not I ask, but I would never dream of "confronting" someone on the radio to correct them (Except the moron that was scolding the other pilot.)

Can't we all just get along? :confused:

Thanks for the rant, I feel better now. ;)
Click to expand...

Here is the thing, once you announce your position and intentions, other pilots that might be in your path are obligated to communicate their position to you, so "Any traffic please advise" is really redundant. You are telling people to do something that they should do anyway, so your are wasting precious seconds on the radio, time that people in your path could be using to give you a position report.

Now, think about the traffic that is in the area but not a possible conflict. You know, the plane that is departing from the airport southbound while you are coming in from the North, or the plane on short final. When you say ANY traffic please advise, your are demanding that EVERYONE in the area get on the radio and talk to you.

The term "area" is of course vague. Do you mean a 5, 10, 15, or perhaps 37 mile radius?

Can you understand why this phrase "should not be used under any condition"? If this isn't forbidden, I don't know what is.

Announce your position, shut up, listen, and keep your eyes peeled.

In the example you give, you have two non exclusive choices:

1) Monitor the Crete frequency before you are handed off.

2) Slow down before you are released.

There, now I feel better.

Hans
 
Don't let it steal your joy

I'm glad some of you folks don't have the those funny looking tubes on your leading edges that have been known to throw lead projectiles out. Esp the on the military schemes and they work. Talk about road (air) rage!!

I don't like it either but I'm not going to let someone steal my joy when I'm out flying. Bad radio technique yes, but I am willing to forgive when that student pilot is 5 out and is really trying hard to be safe when planning to enter the pattern. With a bit of luck, I might have a chance to give him a tip to make him/her a better pilot when he/she walks up to admire my bird on the ramp.

Vansairforce Forum, my 2 cents departing pattern to the airport and going flying, Vansairforce. Good day.
 
Webb said:
I don't like it either but I'm not going to let someone steal my joy when I'm out flying. Bad radio technique yes, but I am willing to forgive when that student pilot is 5 out and is really trying hard to be safe when planning to enter the pattern. With a bit of luck, I might have a chance to give him a tip to make him/her a better pilot when he/she walks up to admire my bird on the ramp.

Vansairforce Forum, my 2 cents departing pattern to the airport and going flying, Vansairforce. Good day.
Click to expand...

Ya know Web, that is the best advise (and cure) I have heard yet. Trying to change the world is frustrating and futile so why do it? That is what REALLY got to me about this whole thing. Someone critising another pilot on the air in a condesending tone of voice and attitude. I hate know-it-alls. We can all be better pilots, better builders, better people. We can all do it better. Look in the mirror before you try and change the world.

I'm gonna shave and go flying.;) ... Look out everybody Geico is taking the active, This is NOT a drill, CLEAR THE AREA !! A TFR is now in effect for 100NM radius around KLNK. :eek: ,

:D
 
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Sensitive

Boy, some of you guys are sensitive!!!! A couple of comments.

1) Some mentioned instrument students and talking about approaches. It is your responsibility to plan your flight and ALL pertinent information regarding the airport you are going to use. This includes information regarding student activity. It would not be a bad idea to learn the navaid intersections in the area.

2) Regarding the request for any other traffic in the area request, I think this is important. Here's why. I fly medical helicopters in the busy area in and around the busy Phoenix Class B airspace. Recently I had a flight that required me to pass through the airspace of a non towered airport. I was monitoring 122.8 a few miles out. I announced my position and asked if there was any other traffic in the area. Sure enough, there was an aircraft on downwind that had not previously announced his position or intention. I had him in site and was quickly past the airport. Had this guy been doing a touch and go and not announced his intentions and I mine, we could have been close.

To me any communications that lets me know there is an aircraft in the area is a good thing.

So, learn everything possible about the airport you intend to land at, the surround airspace and any other possible potential issues. This includes parachute activity, aerobatic boxes and training areas and frequencies.

Do not sacrifice safety for anything.
 
This one is interesting...

RV7Guy said:
.....
1) Some mentioned instrument students and talking about approaches. It is your responsibility to plan your flight and ALL pertinent information regarding the airport you are going to use. This includes information regarding student activity. It would not be a bad idea to learn the navaid intersections in the area.
.......
Do not sacrifice safety for anything.
Click to expand...

I actually would like to know such things as the location of local practice areas when I go to a new arport....

Radio call = "N123XY inbound from practice area"
Me (silently) "where the h*&^ is that?"

Where is this information located? - don't tell me on the local FBO bulletin board - I haven't arrived yet...:)

It's not on the sectional, it's not on www.airnav.com, it's not in the Pilot Guide publications, it might be (but usually not) in the "remarks" section quoted on Airnav - which is extracted from the official FAA IQ-5010 Airport Master Record.
Example - http://gcr1.com/5010web/airport.cfm?Site=CGZ
Very rarely is it on the airport web site - usually part of the city web site.
Example - http://www.ci.casa-grande.az.us/web/guest/airport
Airnav example
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KCGZ

Test for all - pick a nearby airport to your location, and see if you can do any better....:)

The Casa Grande example has a special case of student instrument approaches, which is noted on the sectional. The sectional note is actually more specific than the IQ-5010, since it gives an area - the Remarks don't say which of the four IFR approaches are busy.... but I still have no idea where their student practice area is...:rolleyes:

I don't think there are any other similar (non-military) examples on the Phoenix sectional - even Prescott, home of Embry-Riddle, does not get a sectional note, or even a note in the Airport Master Record Remarks section - I guess the 234,425 yearly operations does give a hint of "busy"

Nice thought, but other than airnav comments section that is extracted from the FAA Airport Master Record, I see no real official sources for actual data.

gil A - VFR with Airnav info, a current sectional, and looking for data....

Still don't know where those pesky practise areas are....
 
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Please help. Low on memory.

RV7Guy said:
Boy, some of you guys are sensitive!!!! A couple of comments.

1) Some mentioned instrument students and talking about approaches. It is your responsibility to plan your flight and ALL pertinent information regarding the airport you are going to use. This includes information regarding student activity. It would not be a bad idea to learn the navaid intersections in the area.
Click to expand...
Yesterday I took off from my home airport, NC25, refueled at KRUQ, hopped over to KJQF to give my sister and her friend a ride, flew to GA27 to rendezvous with eight other TeamRV airplanes, flew with the 9-ship formation to 6GA0 for Kahuna's birthday party (he's 40!) and team photo session, then dropped into 18A for fuel on the way home to NC25. That's six airports in one day, and you are proposing that I memorize all the navaid intersections and research all the student training areas for every airport? And don't tell me to just write it all down on my knee pad. Ever try to read your knee pad in the middle of a 9-ship formation? Please give us transients a break. When you are departing "goofy" IAF on the GPS24 approach, please just tell me you are "5 miles out on the straight-in, runway 24". I can handle that.:D
 
....and also....

RV7Guy said:
So, learn everything possible about the airport you intend to land at, the surround airspace and any other possible potential issues. This includes parachute activity, aerobatic boxes and training areas and frequencies.

Do not sacrifice safety for anything.
Click to expand...

.......for Ag ops like ourselves, flying NORDO, 12-14 flights a day in the summer.

Regards,.
 
Simple Logic

OK, here's why the phrase "Any traffic in the Area Please Advise" does NOT increase safety, and is not recommended - it is a simple logical problem.

1) If you listen for five minutes on the frequency as you approach the airport, and everyone is making position calls, then you know where EVERYONE is.

2) If you ASK everyone to report their position, and ONE person doesn't, then you don't know where EVERYONE is, and if you think you do, then you have a rogue that could get you.

The bottom line is that if you ask everyone to report (just for you), you do NOT know anything more for certain about the traffic in the area than if you didn't make the request.

The rules/procedures are designed to work for everyone, all the time, no matter if you have local knowledge or not. That is why they are common procedures. Using local procedures, techniques, or landmarks lowers the safety margin for any transients in the area. Remember that the majority of mid-air collisions happen in airport traffic areas - this is where we need to be our sharpest in regards to doing it by the book!

Paul

Paul
 
Geico266 said:
Okay, but this does not mean there are not circumstances where it is helpful. An example; On flight following from Lincoln, NE (KLNK) to Crete, NE (KCEK) (a distance of 16 miles) the approach guys will hold you to their frequency and kick you loose 4-5 miles from Crete. In an RV, traveling about 180MPH on decent you can eat up that remaining distance to the pattern in a matter of seconds. There are times when I make the switch and transmit my position and intentions, and ask for traffic. While I think the subject phrase may be overused, I think there are times when it is okay AFTER stating your position, altitude, and intentions.
Click to expand...

In the above example (at the start of the thread) you don't have permission to switch frequencies yet, and must monitor ATC. They don't "kick you loose" to CTAF until you about 5-8 miles away. In a descending RV you are gonna cover that ground quickly. In 5 minutes I'll be locking up the hanger. ;)

Ironflight said:
1) If you listen for five minutes on the frequency as you approach the airport, and everyone is making position calls, then you know where EVERYONE is.
Click to expand...


While I agree the phrase is used too much and it should not be a part of general announcing, I believe there are times when it may be useful. The guy that flies life flight helos for instance. The point is to communicate.
 
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Just communicate -exactly!

I fly Lears into many small and uncontrolled cough* sorry - non-towered airports all over the country. What I have deduced from more than one heart stopping moment is that I don't care what or how it's said, just say it! The nordo aircraft scare me to death when Vref sits around 145kts.
 
Geico266 said:
While I agree the phrase is used too much and it should not be a part of general announcing, I believe there are times when it may be useful. The guy that flies life flight helos for instance. The point is to communicate.
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I agree 100% with you that the purpose of everything that we do on the radio is to communicate - but let's remember that communication occurs when information has been exchanged - not just when someone has spoken.

What scares me about people using the phrase "All Traffic in the Area...." is if the folks using it are actually depending on the responses to give them the complete picture of what is out there. Experiment with me sometime - listen to the CTAF in a busy area for an hour - someone will use the phrase - and almost NO ONE will respond. Yet you KNOW that you have been hearing people making position reports. This should prove that calling for everyone to tell you where they are is not a dependable way of gathering the traffic picture, and therefore is nothing more than additional frequency congestion.

If everyone uses the prescribed procedures all of the time, then we have a SYSTEM that works. if people decide that they are going to "roll there own" based on opinions, hangar flying, and lounge chats, then we don't have a system at all.

One note I'd add is that this problem is perceived differently by people in different geographic areas. In a busy metro area like Houston, we have 5-6 airports in the same range on the same CTAF frequency - it's busy, and any wasted air time can really mess things up. Out in the middle of nowhere, you might not understand why excessive or useless calls are a problem. Might be why people see this differently, but if you follow the AIM, you'll be OK no matter where you go.

Remember, if you drop out of an IFR environment into a VFR environment, you get no special treatment - and that includes avoiding the NORDO J-3 on final that has the same right to be there as the Lear.....

Paul
 
Ironflight said:
Remember, if you drop out of an IFR environment into a VFR environment, you get no special treatment - and that includes avoiding the NORDO J-3 on final that has the same right to be there as the Lear.....
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I'd like to suggest, that in this day and age of miniature handhelds...................that there is no reason not to have radios in busy airport enviroments.

The Russian radial Pitt's M-12 that I share a hangar with, has no electrical system (compressed air starts), but at least it has a hand-held connected to a portable intercom.

I've lived under a "non-towered" airport pattern for nine years, and have witnessed numerous un-necessary problems with airplanes pretending they're still flying in the golden age of open green pastures and few aircraft.

Use a radio! I don't care if it's a Cub or ultra-light.

L.Adamson -- RV6A
 
Ironflight said:
What scares me about people using the phrase "All Traffic in the Area...." is if the folks using it are actually depending on the responses to give them the complete picture of what is out there.
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No, not really. It's just phraseology, I don't think people who say that are even really expecting a response. It's just semantics. A different way of just announcing intentions.

I'm sure I'll catch a ton of flack but I agree that in this day and age comm and mode c for everyone would be nice.
 
RV7Guy said:
I announced my position and asked if there was any other traffic in the area. Sure enough, there was an aircraft on downwind that had not previously announced his position or intention.
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So, what did asking for "any traffic in the area please advise" accomplish that simply stating your position wouldn't have accomplished? The other guy was obviously listening and paying attention, and he answered up when you announced your position. Adding the additional verbage simply ties up more precious radio seconds.

I agree about not sacrificing safety for anything, but in a busy Unicom environment, unnecessary radio transmission makes things less safe, not more safe.

PS- Sorry about your Cubbies (snicker...)
 
Matt-8 said:
The nordo aircraft scare me to death when Vref sits around 145kts.
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Big jets scare me to death when I'm in a nordo aircraft ;)

There seems to be an attitude among the Big Jet pilots coming into non-towered fields that has a lot to do with this discussion. When I hear "Peapatch traffic, Lear 12345, 20 miles straight in for runway 18, ANY TRAFFIC IN THE AREA PLEASE ADVISE," what is really being said is "any traffic in the area, get out of my way because I'm making a long, fast straight-in."

Not to pick on you Matt, but you are the first guy to bring this issue up.
 
Works fine around here. Usually the first person to answer says something to the effect of "three in the pattern and one inbound from the north". (great to know if your ALSO north) No need for the rest to do anything else but continue normal traffic reports. One transmission each, the full picture had by all. This way, the folks with radios are taking care of their brothers not so equipped.
Pretty much worked that way everywhere I've been the last 25 years. Maybe I've just been lucky.
BTW, the freight haulers bring heavy jets into uncontrolled fields all the time. If I call asking for "traffic in the area to please advise", silence would not be your best option. The jet doesn't have to hit you to kill you. Wake turb and all that. By the same token, RV's are pretty fast. Getting the lay of the land with one helpful transmission is a big plus.
As always, your free to do whatever YOU think is right... ;-)
DM


n468ac said:
'Traffic in the area please advise' is a waste of time ... at lease in our area I don't respond and don't hear many respond either. I make the normal pattern calls. At our airport we have more than a few 'No Radio' planes flying around ... you really need to slow down 5 miles out or stay high and over fly the airport to check out the pattern.


my .02...
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sprucemoose said:
Big jets scare me to death when I'm in a nordo aircraft ;)

There seems to be an attitude among the Big Jet pilots coming into non-towered fields that has a lot to do with this discussion. When I hear "Peapatch traffic, Lear 12345, 20 miles straight in for runway 18, ANY TRAFFIC IN THE AREA PLEASE ADVISE," what is really being said is "any traffic in the area, get out of my way because I'm making a long, fast straight-in."
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Don't worry.................'cause you won't even hear the Lear's transmission, in your nordo (no radio) aircraft.... :D

L.Adamson ---- RV6A --- installing radio #2
 
That about sums it up... Just sounds nicer the other way. ;-)
BTW, the long straight in is the safest thing to do in a big A/C. We could fly the pattern with you, but you wouldn't like it. <G>

DM


There seems to be an attitude among the Big Jet pilots coming into non-towered fields that has a lot to do with this discussion. When I hear "Peapatch traffic, Lear 12345, 20 miles straight in for runway 18, ANY TRAFFIC IN THE AREA PLEASE ADVISE," what is really being said is "any traffic in the area, get out of my way because I'm making a long, fast straight-in."
 
"Any traffic in the area, please advise." is a call I will never ever answer under any circumstances.
 
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