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  #11  
Old 07-19-2021, 07:59 PM
BillL BillL is offline
 
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Interesting discussion.

I had arrived at ORD in a 747 from Japan about 8 am, we were taxiing to the terminal area and had a perfect seat to observe a pickup truck coming 90 deg to the 747 off to my left. I saw him coming 100 yrds away 35-40 mph. I was thinking he does not see this airplane and is going under the wing and hit us. Suddenly all four wheels lock up, he slides to a 45 deg angle and the tip of the wing goes over the top.

Apparently the 747 had right-of-way.
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  #12  
Old 07-19-2021, 08:07 PM
David Z David Z is offline
 
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Airplane definitely has right of way. There isn't much that has right of way over an airplane landing. The event described meets the Canadian definition of a runway incursion. The whole runway belongs to the landing aircraft. There's even some distance needed to be maintained beyond the runway edge, however I can't recall the number.

I agree with talking to the airport manager about this.
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  #13  
Old 07-19-2021, 09:47 PM
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rv7boy rv7boy is offline
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Question Who “HAS” the right of way?

Somewhere in my car driving learning experience, I was told by a person with more experience than me, that nobody HAS the right of way. Rather, one driver YIELDS the right of way to the other. The idea of courtesy is prominent.

This may not apply to the operators of an airplane and a mower, but maybe it should. Avoidance of conflict is obviously the desired result, regardless if who is “at fault,” or the least courteous.

Be careful out there.
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  #14  
Old 07-20-2021, 07:04 AM
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riseric riseric is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Z View Post
The event described meets the Canadian definition of a runway incursion. The whole runway belongs to the landing aircraft. There's even some distance needed to be maintained beyond the runway edge, however I can't recall the number.

I agree with talking to the airport manager about this.

I also agree that anywhere there's some maintenance on or around a runway, the workers should have some way of knowing that aircraft are coming or going.
While working TWR, we had to clear anyone or anything (people, mowers, tractors, snowblowers, trucks, etc) 200 FEET away from the runway to use it for landing or take-off otherwise it was a runway incursion.
The runways were(are) 150 feet wide.
That was the norm (didn't check but presume it a federal regulation) to respect at the airport. Mind you, at an international airport.
I'm curious to find out if there's a national or ICAO norm concerning different size airports... will search and try to find out...

Found this from the FAA. Seems that a Runway Safety Area exists, 300 Meters from centerline (when practical)
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Last edited by riseric : 07-20-2021 at 07:25 AM.
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  #15  
Old 07-20-2021, 08:15 AM
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Low Pass Low Pass is offline
 
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So. We don't have 300 meters safety zone on either side of the runway, but we do have mowing on and near the strip. I know how incredibly unsafe this may sound (spontaneous human combustion and die dangerous), but low passes are encouraged to make sure the mower moves aside and stays clear. (Are we really up to two pages talking about this??)
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  #16  
Old 07-20-2021, 08:25 AM
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PaulvS PaulvS is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Pass View Post
So. We don't have 300 meters safety zone on either side of the runway, but we do have mowing on and near the strip. I know how incredibly unsafe this may sound (spontaneous human combustion and die dangerous), but low passes are encouraged to make sure the mower moves aside and stays clear. (Are we really up to two pages talking about this??)
Would that be a low pass, presumably with a steep pullup to safely clear the trees at the end?
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  #17  
Old 07-20-2021, 05:55 PM
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Default Steep climb

The steep climb would be to clear the horns of that beast... !!!
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  #18  
Old 07-21-2021, 10:27 AM
wawrzynskivp wawrzynskivp is offline
 
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Default Right of way

Interesting topic and perhaps easily misunderstood.

'Right of way' codes do not describe rights in the classic sense. For example states grant the privilege to operate a vehicle on state owned roads, so rights are not involved in motor vehicle right of way. Somebody touched on duty which is closer to how the codes are written.

91.113 is where we go for aircraft. I haven't a clue where or even whether civil or federal code might be found for intramural meeting situations.

Then there are operating procedures written by organizations like airports and golf courses and the like.

Consider a blind person in a meeting situation with a sighted person operating a vehicle and expectations easily get turned on their head.

Even our own rules under 91.113 are often misquoted. For example 91.113g speaks to the special circumstance of an aircraft on final. That aircraft has the right of way over all other aircraft inflight or on the ground, and all others finding themselves in that meeting situation must maneuver clear. So an airplane on final would have the right of way over a balloon in a meeting situation. Yet many would argue that an aircraft at an uncontrolled field who has been in the pattern and is on base has the right of way over an aircraft on final from a straight in. Such a person might try to quote an AC or AIM, but 'right of way' only exists where it is codified as right of way. In fact I had a email exchange with an active co-author of AC 91-66B at the FAA who claimed that the AC gives right of way to the aircraft on base! Even the authoring desk didn't understand that in its seminal definitions of Advisory Circular structure AC 00.2-13 declares that: "the contents of an advisory circular are not binding on the public" By contrast we know that FARs are binding. If anyone noticed, that part of 91-66 that lent confusion has since been re-written.

When properly understood, 'right of way' codes exist to mutually deconflict meeting situations by standing procedure. Yes, they have an after the fact component but that is not where the value lay. The 'stand on' and 'give way' participant in a meeting situation each have a duty under law that provides deconfliction and is pre-coordinated. In the case of a mower vs an airplane if the airplane continues toward the recognized meeting situation there probably isn't anything the mower can do to deconflict.

For aircraft vs mower (and this happens WAY too much and is usually fatal for the schmuck on the mower) we have 91.13

From another perspective the burdened (or give way) vehicle is usually the more maneuverable, or the one in a position with more maneuvering options.

Then there is common sense of course and even common courtesy which may or may not be as common as it is expected.

Last edited by wawrzynskivp : 07-21-2021 at 09:24 PM.
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  #19  
Old 07-21-2021, 11:25 AM
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MacCool MacCool is offline
 
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"Right of way" doesn't make any difference whatsoever (except maybe after-the-fact) when you have a person mowing the runway, mowing the edges, or plowing snow without regard for incoming traffic and/or without communication so they can even know that traffic is coming in.
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