Unsure about response

I emailed Vans the following question about a week ago:

Hi there,
While removing the poprivets that held the cross brace that came
with my
quickbuild, I managed to oval two of the two holes on the right side.
Specifically, two of the holes where the F-7105B-R attaches to the
F-902-R
bulkhead. Should I just leave it or maybe go to a small screw/nut
arrangement. Thanks for all your help.

Jorge Fernandez
#91128

The response was:

Hi,

Just leave for now and then when you get to that area on the project,
address it then. I will give you time to think about a fix, Which will
probably
be a couple of Oops rivets. I'm not sure if any structure will cover this area
in
the future either so it may be purely cosmetic at this time.
Thanks


Vans Aircraft

What makes me unsure is that Vans technical people should have the plans in front of them before responding. In this case, the F-7105B-R is a subpanel behind the main panel and will eventually be covered by forward top skin. So for them to respond, "I'm not sure if any structure will cover this area in the future either so it may be purely cosmetic at this time" makes me feel they are not giving my question the attention I at least feel it deserves. Since I had not heard from Vans and had another question, I went ahead and called Vans and asked the gentleman I spoke to about this also. He was more reassuring that this panel isn't very critical and to just add another rivet if that would make me feel better. Anyone else get some unsatisfactory answers from Van's Builders Support and what are the qualifications for giving tech support?

Just DO It!

He said it would probably require an "ops rivet". What did you want to hear?

After 3 years of building, I get the impression that we, as builders are pretty much driving the people at Van's nuts with silly, unimportant questions. I try to wait a couple of days before I call nowdays.

Last time I called with a "marginal" question, one of the guys said "Rivet it together , it's a Tractor".

His response just sound to me like he did not know what area I was talking about. If they are not sure they could email me for more info. I did enclose a photo with my question. I just hope they aren't getting to lax with all the silly questions people(me included) ask. My peace of mind depends on it.

Jorge,

The bottom line in your case is to do whatever you think best when you have to....and by the time you have to, it will be obvious.

When I was building, I called the help line a couple of times, and after getting some very patronizing responses, I quit calling. I was miffed, but finally came up with what I THINK is the explaination...
1) The help guys at at Van's are not trained in customer service - they are builders and office guys.
2) They have heard every one of these questions a million times.
3) Because they have head each question a million times, they think that they have answered them already, and therefore have little patience when they are asked again....BUT...because they are not trained customer service folks, they don't realize that to each person that asks, it is a NEW question, and they need to suck it up and treat the person who asks it for the thousandth time with the same respect that they answered the first person....

I said this is my theory, I don't know if its' true...at least it satisfied my own ire.....and the bottom line is that one or two rivets screwed up here or there isn't going to make any difference, so just build on!

Paul

It depends on the day/person (mostly the person, I think). I called and e-mailed couple of times with beginner type questions. Most of the time, I got a courteous, helpful response. One time the guy on the other end basically said, "If idiots like you would pay attention and stop screwing up you wouldn't have to make stupid calls like this in the future". This isn't a direct quote but it's close.

So like most reputable companies, they're not perfect but they're pretty good. I'll mention that I seem to get better and more complete answers via e-mail than I do via telephone but you have to wait a day or two sometimes. That's just my experience but e-mail with a couple of small, attached pictures (or links to a website) seems to work better for me AND them.

FAQ

Agree with Paul.... but it always made me wonder.

Why doesn't Van's have an internal FAQ database or even a publicly accesbile one? Back in college as a co-op I worked for a major CAD/CAM software company on their customer hotline.... this was in the early 90's. Even back then we had a searchable database of questions we frequently got and workarounds. I know Vans has answered thousands of questions. You'd think they document the answers.

tidbit... that company was later absorbed by EDS...

They're a great parts house

I'm currently involved in yet another "who's on first" skit with Van's. I always include my customer number and name with my questions and they ask what airplane I'm building and is it an old or new kit! I said, "all my ribs are like this" and they say "we don't know if all RV ribs are like this." They make so much more work for themselves by having to answer the same question 3 or more times instead of taking just a little more time with it the first time. Now, they'll send new parts for free at the drop of a hat, so I can't complain too much. I plan to build my second RV for free from all the bad parts I'm collecting.

Call early

When I call it's very early Van's time, so I expect some grumpiness. Almost never get any. If you are calling late, perhaps by the end of the day they are tired and looking forward to a cold one.

It's been a long time since I've called, and by now I know what they are going to say to most of my questions - "Build on". And that's what I've done, and it seems to be working. Of course, I'm not flying yet, so...

If they wrote a FAQ, then almost all the answers will be: "Build on".

Call your Tech Counselors!

Like I've said before, probably 90% of your questions can be answered by EAA Tech Counselors. If the tech counselor can't answer your question, he/she will then advise to call Van's.

selling tool

THEY USE CUSTOMER SERVICE AS A SELLING TOOL. there for it should be handled with care. i have said before there aint no warm fuzzys with vans, BUT vans IMHO has really gotten better over the past year. and the shipping ive encountered lately is as good as any other company. i actually get stuff in less than a week form across the country.
as far as technical help i always do what i wanted to in the end. they just want you to relax a bit and possibly gain more skills before worrying to much about it. like mel said get a tech counselor to check it out. and you will also get a better perspective on other things as well.

I tend to always email with photo's attached. Bruce has helped me on several cases and was courtious.


---
RV-7a (wings)

Questions to Van's

I have built four aircraft, including 3 RV's. I have been a technical counselor for many years and have looked at many projects. I teach riveting, metal work, welding, and composite work. I get lots of questions and am happy to answer them without making the builder feel like he is asking dumb questions. It is far better to ask than to forge ahead and make matters worse when something does not seem right. My experience with most builders is that they worry way too much about minor glitches. Van's designs are so over designed that minor deficiencies will not compromise the strength or flying qualities of the plane. That said, ask a tech counselor in your local area and I will bet that he will come over and look at your problem and help you find a good solution and not make you feel stupid. EAA can locate a tech counselor in your area and tell you how to get in touch with them. Personally, I have never called Van's with a question that was not answered promptly and with courtesly and I have never felt like they thought that my questions were so dumb that I was subject to derision.