VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

-POSTING RULES
-Advertise in here!
- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

Keep VAF Going
Donate methods

Point your
camera app here
to donate fast.

  #61  
Old 09-04-2020, 10:54 AM
Rightfooted's Avatar
Rightfooted Rightfooted is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Oro Valley, AZ
Posts: 31
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MElstien View Post
I would also like blending the manual flight controls with some automation. in-flight automation is probably the easiest with speech commands converted to electronic commands that may simulate an autopilot controller (Garmin 507 for example) talking to the MFD/PFD. Garmin already makes an audio panel with voice control. Why not an autopilot with voice control.

I have always wanted to add FADEC. This would be a great time to do that. Using linear actuators or stepper motors to manipulate throttle, mixture and prop, again with some type of slip clutch for an override.

All the switches could be digital switches or controlled by a digital relay taking a voice command or some type of mouth or head movement command.

How can we make this conversation turn into a well run project?. I am an engineer but we will need PMs to keep us on track. I am confident many people on this forum will contribute with their skills when asked. There are so many amazing people on this forum.
I may need to see exactly what your suggestions are in the real world but I appreciate your emphasis on safety!

There’s certainly a lot to be worked out! My first goal is to choose an airplane that can be modified, then try to raise the funds to get it, then I’ll definitely need the help delegating all the little bits that need to be done!

Thanks for the suggestions!
__________________
Jessica Cox
First Armless Pilot
Currently exploring customizing a homebuilt experimental to fly with my feet
www.JessicaCox.com
www.RightfootedFoundation.com
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 09-04-2020, 01:22 PM
1001001's Avatar
1001001 1001001 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Just Minutes from KBVI!
Posts: 1,124
Default

The fly-by-wire concept is interesting, but it seems it would need to be a redundant system, in case a servo were to fail. A friend had his roll servo fail in flight the other day in his RV-10; not a real problem for an airplane with mechanical linkages, but disastrous in a true fly-by-wire system without reversion to mechanical or redundant electrical or vacuum controls.

I'd stick with mechanical controls, but of course add an autopilot for convenience and safety.

I wonder if there are any project airplanes languishing out there that are close to the quick-build stage of fuselage completion? It would offer a good test bed for controls mods. An owner of such a project who couldn't complete it might donate it to Jessica's foundation, which is a 501(c)3
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 09-04-2020, 01:23 PM
jjbardell jjbardell is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 227
Default

Jessica,
Agree with a few of the others on the post that a 9A would be a great platform. The controls are so much more forgiving than any other model, except maybe the 10. The 9 has so much rudder surface area and overall authority that with the right modifications you would need little input on a nice flying day. For those gusty x-wind days you could easily get the authority you need without much effort.

Along with the control modifications, I would also research the idea of modifying the panel layout to move forward / after and height to optimize for your seating position.

Also would recommend looking at the slider vs. the tip-up and how it will be for managing you entry / exit. The slider has options which may help with the seat position over the tip-up too which is something else to consider.

I am in south Phoenix and would love to see how I can also assist in your RV adventure. Being without a plane as I transition to my next project, I am eager to chat or be put to work on some sort of project! I have watch your flying career with such admiration. The people and resources in the Vans community is second to none!

Feel free to PM me anytime for my contact information.
__________________
Cheers, Josh

Building - Zenith 750 [11323] CruzerDuty27.5
N67LJ RV9-A [90504] - SOLD
N83LJ Sonex [0864] - SOLD

https://rvpilotlife.wordpress.com/blog/home/
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 09-04-2020, 04:11 PM
vgb vgb is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: northern Cal
Posts: 115
Default Controls For RVS

Ok Vans Aircraft. I know you watch this forum. So you engineers get your heads together and help this lady out. I know you guys can do it. It would be cool if you did.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 09-04-2020, 05:13 PM
BillL BillL is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Central IL
Posts: 5,742
Default Now we are talking . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by beav View Post
Hi Jessica,

I work at Apple and have worked closely with the Accessibility team. We always start with a clear understanding of the user's abilities before designing a system to accommodate them. Given that, I'd like to understand what motions or manipulations you would be prefer to use for aircraft control and your relative strength and precision for each motion.

1. Pushing and pulling your feet
2. Moving your knees from side to side.
3. Rocking your feet forward (like pushing a gas pedal) or backward.
4. Twisting your feet left and right (around an axis through your lower leg).
5. Gripping or manipulating controls with your toes.
6. Mouth controls (blow/suck tube)
7. Any upper torso motion?
8. Anything I'm missing?

Once we know which motions you'd like to use for each aircraft control, I have no doubt that this group has the brain power to come up with the modifications necessary to give you that control.

I'd be happy to help in any way I can; I'm close enough to fly down if necessary.
The mechanisms can be adapted and fit just about anywhere, but I bet you have the best ideas about a desirable interface. This group can make that a reality. I am afraid I have no clue what forces, movement, digit dexterity abilities are needed to do all the functions.

There are the basic controls, pitch, roll, rudder, but there are engine controls, and radios that come into play.

Help the VAF team generate some ideas to meet some specific needs!!

I, for one, am looking forward to progressing with (and learning from) your challenge to the group.
__________________
Bill

RV-7
Lord Kelvin:
“I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about,
and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you
cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge
is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind.”
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 09-04-2020, 05:21 PM
moosepileit moosepileit is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 672
Default

Since, like most Ercoupes with Stromburgs, there is only a single throttle power control on the 912- got to thinking when I saw above-

Could not a one-off ish RV-12 mimic the Ercoupe? Reduce crosswinds and aft gear reset to landing crabbed like a no rudder pedal ercoupe.

Link rudders to nose gear directly, not free castoring- like a Rocket link tailwheel.

Brakes, like a Sonex- one motion, shared cylinder to both pistons.

Pitch trim/flaps- is the 12 pitchy at flap extension/retraction?

Is the gain vs Ercoupe by mirroring it with a -12 worth the gains or is a 9A more the target, done similarly?

From one of the guys leaving in the C-17 at KOSH'12 Jessica waved at.
__________________
RV-6, bought from builder.
O-320, slider, carb, mags, FP
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 09-04-2020, 05:27 PM
scard's Avatar
scard scard is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Cedar Park, TX
Posts: 3,197
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moosepileit View Post
Since, like most Ercoupes with Stromburgs, there is only a single throttle power control on the 912- got to thinking when I saw above-

Could not a one-off ish RV-12 mimic the Ercoupe? Reduce crosswinds and aft gear reset to landing crabbed like a no rudder pedal ercoupe.

Link rudders to nose gear directly, not free castoring- like a Rocket link tailwheel.

Brakes, like a Sonex- one motion, shared cylinder to both pistons.

Pitch trim/flaps- is the 12 pitchy at flap extension/retraction?

Is the gain vs Ercoupe by mirroring it with a -12 worth the gains or is a 9A more the target, done similarly?

From one of the guys leaving in the C-17 at KOSH'12 Jessica waved at.
Her stated mission dictates a 4 seat hauler (rv10). Anything less sounds like it wouldn't complete the mission.
__________________
Scott Card
CQ Headset by Card Machine Works
CMW E-Lift
RV-9A N4822C flying 2200+hrs. / Cedar Park, TX
RV8 Building - fuselage / showplanes canopy (Done!)
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 09-04-2020, 05:45 PM
moosepileit moosepileit is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 672
Default

OK, same thing- scale the Ercoupe up to RV10. If a yoke works, lower it/reset for comfort. Folks replace Swift yokes with stick retrofits- reverse it.

Aft gear set for crabbed landings in crosswinds, single brake control, direct nose steering.

Pitch trim /flap link/rate/deflection matching.
__________________
RV-6, bought from builder.
O-320, slider, carb, mags, FP

Last edited by moosepileit : 09-04-2020 at 05:47 PM. Reason: Typos
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 09-04-2020, 09:45 PM
agent4573 agent4573 is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Mountain view
Posts: 246
Default

Lots of good suggestions so far, but at this point they're all just kinda shots in the dark. The apple guy is asking some of the right questions to get started in defining what is/isn't a possible solution. I didn't see anywhere in the thread the other half of the requirements question, and that is, what are you legally allowed to fly per your license restriction? Does it currently say just an ercoup or are you restricted to anything that links rudder and aileron controls? Are you willing to deal with the FAA to expand your restrictions or would you like a solution that fits inside your current allowables? Gotta define the system level requirements before you start creating the technical solution.
__________________
www.rv7build.com

2020 dues paid.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 09-04-2020, 10:12 PM
pjc's Avatar
pjc pjc is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 183
Default

Jessica,
Plenty of motivated experimenters here to help, but likely few of us understand your unique capability. Would be great to understand these things better:
Quote:
Originally Posted by beav View Post
Hi Jessica,

I'd like to understand what motions or manipulations you would be prefer to use for aircraft control and your relative strength and precision for each motion.

1. Pushing and pulling your feet
2. Moving your knees from side to side.
3. Rocking your feet forward (like pushing a gas pedal) or backward.
4. Twisting your feet left and right (around an axis through your lower leg).
5. Gripping or manipulating controls with your toes.
6. Mouth controls (blow/suck tube)
7. Any upper torso motion?
8. Anything I'm missing?
The idea below is close to my first thought which would be to use an oversized “Track ball” (maybe 6” radius?) implementing 3 axis control. Roll the ball Fore-Aft for elevator, Right-Left for aileron, and Twist at the ankle for yaw. We might find enough mechanical advantage to do this manually if you have sufficient strength. Alternatively we go digital and just use this as an input control using autopilot servos for actuation. Other foot available for a pedal throttle and brakes like a car.

Remainder of switches, controls resized and relocated to the floor for foot operation (flaps, lights, ignition, starter, etc). Fuel selector also on the floor.

Should allow a normal upright seating position with normal rest positions for hips, knee, and ankle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbsdad View Post
How about a boot to fit your feat in. Twist for rudder, for and aft for elevators, right and left for ailerons. That would leave the Other foot/leg for throttle, flaps, and brakes. Changing radios etc by voice command. That way she would have a more comfortable seating position. Also I think the 8a would be the ezest to modify. Entry/egress I think you already have a handle on. Wish I had more resources to offer, but if there’s anyway I can help feel free to ask. Good luck on this project I’m shure someone with your tenacity will get it don.
Perhaps a purpose made shoe would ease operation of the “track ball”. Here’s another similar idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
I really like the idea of a boot that would allow you to use what is essentially a three-axis joy stick. We use that type of roll/pitch/yaw hand controller in spacecraft, and it is very natural - assuming you can get the mechanical leverage you need.

Paul
Finally, if you have adequate fine motor control, two small joy sticks have been used to fly R/C aircraft for decades. They could be floor mounted and Would operate autopilot servos (plenty of folks here who could make that happen).

Thanks for checking in. Exactly the sort of challenge that gets us excited. Let’s make it happen!

Peter
__________________
Vans RV6 flying
SZD 48-2 sold
2018, 19, 20 Dues paid
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:20 PM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.