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  #31  
Old 08-30-2022, 10:29 AM
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Carlos151 Carlos151 is offline
 
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Location: Lebanon, TN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcarne View Post
.......on my engine and if my Pmag is timed at 25 degrees on my IO-360 in those conditions I will approach 400 easily in climb. I took out about 4 degrees of timing recently and my CHTs now top out around 385 in hot conditions on climb.
Pretty sure eMag timing is at TDC or 1-6 degrees after TC.

Straight from page 14 of their manual:

"Note 1: Be wary of old magneto timing habits. Magnetos are timed using the 25 degree (or other) BTDC marks. Here, you will time at TDC or slightly after (never before)."

I've got a Plasma III for the top plugs that I've been very happy with for the last 500+ hours. Wire it up just like the manual says and you'll have zero issues. Mine has the Hall effect module.

When Slick came out with their service bulletin a couple of years ago I swapped out that mag for an eMag and have been extremely happy with that ignition system, also with zero issues over the last 150+ hours. To be fair, I had zero issues with the Slick mag for 350+ hours.

Just went flying the other day after completing the annual inspection, 97 degrees OAT, and all CHT's were no hotter than 355. I was also leaning during the climb at 120 kts. Slowed her to 90 kts and highest temperature was 375 on my IO360. At 23/23, anywhere from 5.5k to 9.5k, I get 170 kts TAS burning 7.9 GPH LOP. When I had the Slick mag, I'd burn 8.5 GPH LOP on my IO360 with a Hartzell CS prop.

Pros of eMag:
Super easy to time (compared to a regular mag and/or the Plasma)
No internal plastic parts (that I know of)
Weight savings over a mag
More choice of plugs and consequently much cheaper
21st century product

Cons:
Can't think of any

As far as research, like others have mentioned, I do like the availability and variety of options and responses found on VAF. I'm not into reinventing the wheel but somewhere along the line you have to chose what's right for your aircraft.
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RV-8 N151TK "La Otra Chica"
Flying as of August 14, 2015
RV-15 N302TK "La Proxima Chica"
TN26
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  #32  
Old 08-30-2022, 09:44 PM
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jcarne jcarne is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos151 View Post
Pretty sure eMag timing is at TDC or 1-6 degrees after TC.
Yes you are correct, it was a typo on my part. My Pmag is timed 4 degrees after TC. Slick on the right side is 25 degrees as is standard. Previous post has been fixed.

I'm betting if a guy timed a Pmag at 25 degrees like a traditional mag things really would not go good!
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Last edited by jcarne : 08-30-2022 at 09:47 PM.
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  #33  
Old 09-03-2022, 11:50 AM
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Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacCool View Post
Many of the posters on this forum are very, very new at airplane building/maintenance and new to this forum. The search that some think is so “simple” for them is impaired for the newbie by the “you don’t know what you don’t know” concept, not to mention cumbersome limitations imposed by vBulletin’s arcane search engine. It would seem reasonable to hope that if an “expert” would take the time to read the post and type the response “do a search”, maybe he could help out a less knowledgeable poster and take a little extra time and provide a link. Otherwise…maybe just skip over the post altogether….always an option.
Seems to be a lot of discussion in this thread concerning "forum etiquette". Moderators are happy with it, so let me drop some more "advanced" forum knowledge for those who are new. Consider it a public service:

Forums like this have been around for decades, and if there is a singular cardinal rule across all of them it is to "do a search" before posting a new thread. I did not make this rule up - it just "is". Now, for the true forum newbie, understand that unlike the polite and respectful response I gave earlier in this thread, MANY other forums would be very, very harsh for committing this faux pas. In many cases the "...do a search..." language would be followed up with unflattering opinions about your IQ, your manhood, or numerous emoji characters or memes reflecting the same. We are fortunate to live in a world with a civilized forum such as VAF. Here is an example from another, also polite and civil aviation forum response from just today:

Quote:
Not that new, we already talked it to death here:

...Please search before putting up a new thread.
It should be noted that the above quote was from a forum moderator interested in keeping his forum content organized and useable as a technical reference.

For the forum newbie - use this forum as a technical library, not an ongoing stream of consciousness journal like farcebook. This forum flourishes when NEW info is added and the existing is archived, organized and available for future users. Understand that its not that people are being lazy when they tell a newbie to "do a search", it is simply the fact that there is such a huge quantity of archived material related to the question that the reader would be dealt a misservice with one or two direct responses. In the case of this thread, there is quite literally HOURS of material available at the firgertips of the requestor. Who am I to try parse out what I think is important to the reader? Its like driving to the library, walking up to the check out counter and asking the librarian "...show me how to make pottery..." - All the while ignoring the volumes of information sitting within reach on the shelf.

That is my public service for the thread. To those who will heed my words and benefit from my years on various forums - you're welcome. For those of you who feel I did not do enough to help out the new guy - It's my burden try to live with the fact that I did not live up to your expectations. No hard feelings either way.
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WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.

Michael Robinson
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Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C - SOLD
RV-8 - SDS CPI - SOLD
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  #34  
Old 09-03-2022, 12:05 PM
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MacCool MacCool is online now
 
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Over the years, I’ve owned three different vBulletin licenses have have had three forums - two specialty-oriented and one general public. I appreciate hearing your opinion, have heard it before, but disagree with it. I’d explain further but there’s no need and I don’t want to appear rude. As you say…no hard feelings and I’ll just leave it at that.
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RV-9A, 2011, bought flying
IO-320D1A (factory new), C/S
Dual Pmags
IFR equipped
AFS 5400/3500, G5, IFD440 navigator,
bunch of other stuff
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  #35  
Old 09-03-2022, 12:40 PM
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Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
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The world would be pretty dull if we all shared the same opinion. As long as we all agree that opinions are equally "valid" from a certain perspective, we can work it all out.
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.

Michael Robinson
______________
Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C - SOLD
RV-8 - SDS CPI - SOLD
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  #36  
Old 11-09-2022, 08:35 PM
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gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is offline
 
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I just bought a pair of PMags.... Yet to fly with them. I have been following EI on airplanes for decades. I remember the early Jeff Rose EI Electroair. The original was crude by todays standards. Electroair is a different company. Then came Lightspeed then EMAG.... now Surefly

The comments above are very good and agree with #2 post. There is one and only one EI that is self powered. PMAG (they don't even make the EMAG anymore). The ease of installation and set up can't be beat.

All EI do similar things, all of them. They all, verses standard magnetos, have more energy and can spark across a larger electrode gap, have advanced timing verses fixed timing, and no "points", triggering is by hall effect typically. Most Electronic ignitions use automotive plugs, because you can gap them wider than massive electrode aircraft plugs, and they are much less expensive; however you can run aircraft plugs if you want with your EI. However aircraft plugs can not be gapped very wide.

There are fancy claims of more spark power by one brand or another of EI. These claims are likely true. Does it matter? All of them are high energy compared to a regular magneto There are only so many volts you can use. Also the ability to fiddle with timing and monitor advance in cockpit is nice but not needed for daily flyer. The PMAG does not come with this ability for inflight adjustment, BUT you can make changes on the ground. Also there is a communication port on the PMAG that works with "EI Commander", an aftermarket cockpit display to monitor and tweak timing. For me I can tweak the PMAG on the ground and leave it alone. No need to fiddle with it all the times and don't care to monitor advance all the time.

The Lightspeed III is different and stands alone as the only CDI ignition. Capacitance Discharge Ignitions in general have advantage of ability to handle extremely high RPM and longer duration spark. In a slow turning aircraft engines this advantage may not be great. If racing at RENO it might be that tiny edge? Most Electronic ignitions on airplanes (and cars) are distributor-less Inductive discharge ignitions.

Customer service. PMAG is known for great service and Brad will talk to you. He is a wealth of knowledge. The PMAG has been around for 20 years. As I said I just bought a set. I was concerned looking at all the post 15 years ago. There were a few issues and 3 service letters (you can look them up on EMAG's website). ALL of this has been sorted out and addressed. Lose magnets fixed by new design. Losing timing reference at start up, due to going into setup mode. This was random, did not affect everyone and may have been Pilot induced, but it was fixed by firmware. Ross at SDS is on these forums. Klaus at LightSpeed has a reputation. Don't know about SureFly, FlyEFI or Electroair.

The big difference is PMAG's are driven off the accessory case like a Magneto. There are NO POINTS or DISTRIBUTOR ROTOR... The shaft drives the trigger magnet and "alternator" to power PMAG. It has to deal with heat and vibration. For that reason it needs a cooling tube and you have to remove PMAG at 12mo condition inspections or every 100 hours per manufactures recommendation, to check lateral play of drive shaft. Not a big deal.

With the other systems you have to drill your ring gear "flywheel" and plant magnets and attach hall effect sensor on case. It is more work but no wear parts like shaft bearings on PMAG. (Note Lightspeed and Electroair offer Triggers that mount in the magneto holes and don't require drilling the ring gear flywheel.)

PMAG is easy to install and it is all self contained. All these other systems, requires a lot more wiring, coils and controller. mounted in different locations. More connections are possible failure points. However nothing is 100% perfect, even traditions Magnetos can and do fail from time to time. That is why we have TWO of them.

Last is cost. They all cost a lot. In Round Numbers they all cost north of $3500 for dual system. Most are fairly complete but with PMAG you do need gears. Those would normally come off your Magneto you removed. If you have to buy them outright it adds another $450 for two gears. On the OTHER ignitions you will need to spend significant money putting in a redundant electrical system, wiring, battery, switches.... so that will even it out. Redundant electrical systems always adds weight.

Every ignition on the market will "work" but you have to weigh all the factors. PMAG is the ONLY self powered EI. All others require redundant electrical system. There are two EI that also can be part of a EFI (Electronic Fuel Injection), SDS and FLyEFI.

Not a factor for your Experimental Amateur built RV, but some brands aircraft EI have certified STC versions, SureFly and Electroair come to mind. I believe PMAG is working on this. I recall the STC requires you retain one Standard Magneto. BTW that is always an option even for Experimental Kit builder. Go with one Electronic ignition and keep standard Mag, verses dual EI and redundant electrical system.

Would I recommend PMAG? Yes for me. However your mileage may very.... literally. All EI will as I said provide a bigger, fatter hotter spark and advance timing alt lower power adding efficiency. How much? Cafe' Foundation did some flight test and I recall 4% to 6% but there are too many variables. For one you have to be under 75% power. Also how you LEAN is key. With EI you can tend to get into the LOP operations, for more savings. It is hard to say how much you will save. It is like driving a car. If you do jackrabbit starts from the stop light and race to the next stoplight, speed verses accelerate slowly, coast to stops and do the speed limit. Same car way different mileage. Is one EI better than another for performance? Don't know, but any EI (even just one and using a regular magneto) is the big jump. I do recall the SECOND EI does not double your efficiency, but it may allow easier and smoother LOP operations. If all you do is fly around at SEA LEVEL at WOT (Wide Open Throttle) a fixed timing regular Magneto will be fine.
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Last edited by gmcjetpilot : 11-09-2022 at 08:59 PM.
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  #37  
Old 11-09-2022, 09:06 PM
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gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos151 View Post
Pretty sure eMag timing is at TDC or 1-6 degrees after TC.
That is pretty much right. The total max advance is 9 degrees. So for a Lycoming it will be 25 deg BTDC after start, and Max advance is 34 Deg (somewhere around 65% power or less).

Yes you set it up at zero, TDC. Internally it advances to 25 deg BTC after engine start. If you NEED less or more base line (100% power advance,) you add or subtract from TDC. Some aircraft engines are not 25 BTDC. EX: You want 23 BTDC, you set up 2 degree past TDC. Then your max advance would be 32 degree.
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Last edited by gmcjetpilot : 11-09-2022 at 09:12 PM.
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  #38  
Old 11-09-2022, 09:37 PM
jclark jclark is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot View Post
I just bought a pair of PMags.... Yet to fly with them. I have been following EI on airplanes for decades. I remember the early Jeff Rose EI Electroair. The original was crude by todays standards. Electroair is a different company. Then came Lightspeed then EMAG.... now Surefly

<<SNIP, SNIP>>

However aircraft plugs can not be gapped very wide.
Lots of good info deleted but one (minor) slightly different view.

Been running "Jeff Rose" ignition since 2002. Just changed it out for a second PMAG (because the plastic nipple on the MAP sensor from 25 years ago finally broke.)

During the 20 years of use, I was able to use aircraft plugs gapped at (I think) .035" as opposed to .019-.022 (I think) that is the traditional gap. The plugs I typically used were REM37BY's. Tried some AC Delco ??486's as well for a short period.
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  #39  
Old 11-09-2022, 09:38 PM
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gmcjetpilot gmcjetpilot is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lr172 View Post
I am not sure that Pmags are anymore reliable than mags. My hanger neighbor just had his Pmag die and had to send it in for repair at well less than 500 hours. Similar stories out there - search for bearing failures.
Your buddy and heard of others is not super scientific, but yes some have failed in the 20 years they have been flying. How long has SDS CPI-2 been flying? 3 yrs. How many revisions has Ross made? Pretty common development and I agree it is a great ignition from all I see. As far as PMAG there is NOT a bunch out there failing on regular occasion. I would not throw out PMAG's are not reliable with out data and statistics. ALL ignitions can and do fail. Bearings. I talked to Brad. In my opinion there should NEVER be "bearing failures", but there is wear. I say NEVER if you are doing the continued airworthiness inspection, you check the lateral play of drive shaft every annual. If no play good to go. How long do they last before bearing change? Depends on engine, prop, how you fly. Some early PMAGS are still flying with original bearings but don't have hard hours. However it is a wear item, granted. Just check it at annual (condition inspection).


Quote:
high CHTs caused by overly agressive (aggressive) timing maps that cannot be adjusted for the operating conditions.
Aggressive? The PMAG has one of the more conservative advance MAP and can be tweaked. As already stated if you don't have a CHT issue now with a magneto it is unlikely to be created with a PMAG. You can set the timing baseline timing, and it is fixed at the baseline advance you set. You can adjust the the advance starting early or later. TOTAL advance does not start until under 75%. Total advance is a fairly conservative 9 degrees. Some other brands will advance 15 degrees.

Quote:
However, it has drawbacks too, such as losing that b/u if the RPMs fall below around 800 and won't re energize.
I have a constant speed Hartzell and RPM never get's so low the PMAG would cut out (around 800 or 900 RPM. Let me rephrase RPM would not get so slow and cause the PMAG to not be self sustaining, until rolling out after landing.

Quote:
Thank about pulling the throttle back on final and then needing to go around. Small SLA batteries cost $25 and are very easy to install. The SDS system even has built in circuitry for charging and using it; Just wire the small battery to their box. Couldn't be easier. You can also do one mag and one EI, then no worries about power source.
All true but easier? Drilling ring gear flywheel wiring is not as simple as PMAG drops in the Mag hole and has Power, P-Lead (ground), Ground, Tachometer signal if you want. There is a COM channel if you want to monitor the ignition in cockpit. Redundant electrical is not something to take lightly. Ross has built in an option for backup battery. That is cool. However a Dimond DA62 Twin Engine planes with electrically dependent diesel engines, cost $1.5 million, have had more than one off field landing due to loss of power from electrical failure. To be fair to Dimond I know one of the accidents was Pilot induced. However this plane has LOTS of electrical redundancy yet several have lost electrical power which caused loss of power. Don't discount the internal self powered aspect of the PMAG.

Quote:
Not trying to push my bias here, just trying to drive you to do the research. You have many choices today, however, Caveat Emptor still applies. Larry
SDS CPI-II is pretty good. Yes do your research.
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Last edited by gmcjetpilot : 11-09-2022 at 09:50 PM.
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  #40  
Old 11-09-2022, 10:09 PM
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Walt Walt is offline
 
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Mags have higher spark energy than most EI’s





https://www.flyefii.com/products/efi...on-comparison/
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EXP Aircraft Services LLC
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RV7A built 2004, 2000+ hrs, New Titan IO-370, Bendix Mags, MTV-9 prop
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Last edited by Walt : 11-09-2022 at 10:13 PM.
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