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  #1  
Old 05-18-2021, 11:55 AM
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jrock836 jrock836 is offline
 
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Location: Burleson, Texas
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Default Van's Instructions

Okay, not wanting to look like an idiot, I have spent way too much time trying to understand what is going on. I give up..

**EDIT: I should have said, I give up on trying to figure out how the instructions could be correct.. I'm not giving up on Van's, my airplane or getting this modification done.. ****

I recently received my baggage bulkhead modification kit and have been getting ready to install it. The kit didn't come with instructions, so I'm using the latest KAI's that Van's sent me on memory stick that deal with the Baggage Cargo Bulkhead.

The section that deals with the Baggage Bulkhead is KAI 33.03.

#1 - What the heck is a AN436AD3-3.5? The instructions seem to indicate it's a rivet. The kit included a bunch of rivets, but they all look the same to me. The instructions seem to indicate that I'm suppose to install 12 of them. I did a Google search of AN436AD3-3.5 and can't seem to find anything. I do notice that just below that it specifies using rivet AN426AD3-3.5 for the other style of platenut...

#2 - I see a Step #9 and a Step #11 in the instructions. Where or what is Step #10?

Are both of these issues just typos or am I missing something? If they are typos, more power to you guys building. If all of the instructions are like this section, the common sense, attention to detail part of me would go crazy by the time I finished building an entire airplane.
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Joe
Van's RV-12 #120566 - ELSA - N49DD
Spinks Airport, KFWS, Fort Worth, TEXAS!


LSRI-A for N49DD / EAA / AOPA
Pvt Pilot since '79! / USNR - MA2
Retired LEO / PADI MSDT / SDI OW Instructor
Scuba Equipment Tech (PT Retirement Job)

If you can walk away from a landing, its a good landing. If you can use the aircraft the next day, its an outstanding landing. Chuck Yeager

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Last edited by jrock836 : 05-22-2021 at 10:53 PM.
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  #2  
Old 05-18-2021, 12:17 PM
NTex NTex is offline
 
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Location: Dallas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrock836 View Post
Okay, not wanting to look like an idiot, I have spent way too much time trying to understand what is going on. I give up..

I recently received my baggage bulkhead modification kit and have been getting ready to install it. The kit didn't come with instructions, so I'm using the latest KAI's that Van's sent me on memory stick that deal with the Baggage Cargo Bulkhead.

The section that deals with the Baggage Bulkhead is KAI 33.03.

#1 - What the heck is a AN436AD3-3.5? The instructions seem to indicate it's a rivet. The kit included a bunch of rivets, but they all look the same to me. The instructions seem to indicate that I'm suppose to install 12 of them. I did a Google search of AN436AD3-3.5 and can't seem to find anything. I do notice that just below that it specifies using rivet AN426AD3-3.5 for the other style of platenut...

#2 - I see a Step #9 and a Step #11 in the instructions. Where or what is Step #10?

Are both of these issues just typos or am I missing something? If they are typos, more power to you guys building. If all of the instructions are like this section, the common sense, attention to detail part of me would go crazy by the time I finished building an entire airplane.
Joe I think you're going to be in for a long road ahead

I'm not familiar with the "new-style" instructions. The older style was more of a narrative, and you would consult the drawings after reading the narrative.

Based on my limited experience the new style, with the narratives and drawings co-located, is more intuitive for me.

Now, I think those are probably typos, and you're right probably 426 rivets. From deduction, since each section has a hardware bag associated with it, and inventory, you can see what hardware goes with each step.

It's usually wise to read an entire section to get idea of how the structure will go together before following the instructions rote.

There's lots of RV guys in DFW so if you need help getting started there's some great mentors to choose from.
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  #3  
Old 05-18-2021, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NTex View Post
Joe I think you're going to be in for a long road ahead

I'm not familiar with the "new-style" instructions. The older style was more of a narrative, and you would consult the drawings after reading the narrative.

Based on my limited experience the new style, with the narratives and drawings co-located, is more intuitive for me.

Now, I think those are probably typos, and you're right probably 426 rivets. From deduction, since each section has a hardware bag associated with it, and inventory, you can see what hardware goes with each step.

It's usually wise to read an entire section to get idea of how the structure will go together before following the instructions rote.

There's lots of RV guys in DFW so if you need help getting started there's some great mentors to choose from.
Well luckily for me, I'm not building an entire airplane.. Just installing this one modification.. Hopefully it's just a short bumpy road, rather than a long one..

I seem to have a special kind of luck.. Often times when I blow off things like this, I later find I should have paid closer attention, because it wasn't a typo.. It was a failure on my part, due to not comprehending them..
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Joe
Van's RV-12 #120566 - ELSA - N49DD
Spinks Airport, KFWS, Fort Worth, TEXAS!


LSRI-A for N49DD / EAA / AOPA
Pvt Pilot since '79! / USNR - MA2
Retired LEO / PADI MSDT / SDI OW Instructor
Scuba Equipment Tech (PT Retirement Job)

If you can walk away from a landing, its a good landing. If you can use the aircraft the next day, its an outstanding landing. Chuck Yeager

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Last edited by jrock836 : 05-18-2021 at 12:29 PM.
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  #4  
Old 05-18-2021, 12:33 PM
Ralph Inkster Ralph Inkster is offline
 
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Joe, there was someone fairly close to you that responded to your previous thread "Low Cost Options". I respectfully suggest, now would be a good time to get his advise & help with your project.

Vans covers basic sheet metal working principles in Chapter 1 of the build manuals, by the time a builder normally gets to fuselage bulkhead panels, it's assumed those basic building skills would have already been conquered.
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built a few RVs, rebuilt a few more, hot rodded more, & maintained/updated a big bunch more
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  #5  
Old 05-18-2021, 12:35 PM
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jrock836 jrock836 is offline
 
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Maybe Step #10 should be "Dimple the platenut holes so they will lay flush to the aluminum BEFORE completing Step #9".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Inkster View Post
Vans covers basic sheet metal working principles in Chapter 1 of the build manuals, by the time a builder normally gets to fuselage bulkhead panels, it's assumed those basic building skills would have already been conquered.
I have completely read Section 5 .. My issue is with Chapter 33 and what appears to be conflicting information. Are you saying that by the time you get to Chapter 33, most have learned to ignore the Van's instructions and bad info contained within?
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Joe
Van's RV-12 #120566 - ELSA - N49DD
Spinks Airport, KFWS, Fort Worth, TEXAS!


LSRI-A for N49DD / EAA / AOPA
Pvt Pilot since '79! / USNR - MA2
Retired LEO / PADI MSDT / SDI OW Instructor
Scuba Equipment Tech (PT Retirement Job)

If you can walk away from a landing, its a good landing. If you can use the aircraft the next day, its an outstanding landing. Chuck Yeager

DONATED

Last edited by jrock836 : 05-18-2021 at 01:24 PM. Reason: Not Section 1... Section 5
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  #6  
Old 05-18-2021, 01:12 PM
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rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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An important part of the standard build manuals / KAI, is Section 5

It is the general build knowledge section that explains a lot of the standard stuff that needs to be learned (including what the part # and sizing nomenclature of rivets means)
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  #7  
Old 05-18-2021, 01:12 PM
FlyingDiver FlyingDiver is online now
 
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Other than the fact there appears to be a typo with the step numbers (11 should be 10), the instructions seem clear. Unless 10 was to countersink the nutplate holes. Which is possible.

First, align the holes on the two pieces, hold them together with clecos, and match drill.

Then dimple the 12 holes that the rivets go through and rivet the nutplates to the sheet part (F-00103). Use a squeezer for that (pneumatic or manual). If they don't seem to fit right then the missing step was probably the countersink.

Then you attach the F-00103 to the F-00102 with the AN526C832R8 screws.

Then on the next page you install the combined pieces again using screws into pre-existing nutplates.
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Last edited by FlyingDiver : 05-18-2021 at 01:14 PM.
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  #8  
Old 05-18-2021, 01:21 PM
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jrock836 jrock836 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
An important part of the standard build manuals / KAI, is Section 5

It is the general build knowledge section that explains a lot of the standard stuff that needs to be learned (including what the part # and sizing nomenclature of rivets means)
Thanks Scott.. I took his word for it being Section 1... Yes, I have read and looked at all of KAI, Section 5... Section 1 is just the Introduction..
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Joe
Van's RV-12 #120566 - ELSA - N49DD
Spinks Airport, KFWS, Fort Worth, TEXAS!


LSRI-A for N49DD / EAA / AOPA
Pvt Pilot since '79! / USNR - MA2
Retired LEO / PADI MSDT / SDI OW Instructor
Scuba Equipment Tech (PT Retirement Job)

If you can walk away from a landing, its a good landing. If you can use the aircraft the next day, its an outstanding landing. Chuck Yeager

DONATED
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  #9  
Old 05-18-2021, 01:21 PM
N8DAV8R N8DAV8R is offline
 
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I can't speak for Ralph and what he is saying, but my own reaction would be that builders learn to deal with these situations pretty early on in the build. Most of us do that during the tail kit when the risk is relatively low and our mindset is one of learning how this all works.

What you raise is kind of a funny question. I think most of us would look at that and recognize both problems as typos. Half of us would think that it's no big deal because it's not hard to determine the correct rivet and step #'s aren't that important. The other half of us would look at and make those same assumptions, but question it 5 times over because typos like that are incredibly rare so maybe we're missing something. Not saying they are non-existent, but very very rare.

I guess my overall point is that I understand why you are upset with having to figure this out, but your mistaken if you jump to the conclusion that RV-12is instructions are so bad that we learn to ignore them.

It's not that hard. You just skipped the learning process part. Get a little help like others have suggested. Or just put the 426 3-3.5 rivets in, take 10 steps, and build on with the bulkhead modification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrock836 View Post
Maybe Step #10 should be "Dimple the platenut holes so they will lay flush to the aluminum BEFORE completing Step #9".



I have completely read Chapter 1.. My issue is with Chapter 33 and what appears to be conflicting information. Are you saying that by the time you get to Chapter 33, most have learned to ignore the Van's instructions and bad info contained within?
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  #10  
Old 05-18-2021, 01:23 PM
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jrock836 jrock836 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingDiver View Post
Nutplates don't get dimpled, they get countersunk.
I would direct you to KAI Section 5R that deals with Installing Nutplates.. unless that's something else I should just ignore..

Basically it says that if you dimple aluminum structure, you dimple the nutplate behind it. It even talks about modifying the dimple die so that you can prevent the center nutplate screw hole flange from interfering with the die.. With that said, I can't see why countersinking the nutplates wouldn't work too, as long as the nutplate is at least .032 thick.. Van's seems to feel better about only countersinking material that is .040 or thicker.. Pretty sure the nutplate isn't that thick.. But then again, we're not building the space shuttle here either.. Cheers!
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Joe
Van's RV-12 #120566 - ELSA - N49DD
Spinks Airport, KFWS, Fort Worth, TEXAS!


LSRI-A for N49DD / EAA / AOPA
Pvt Pilot since '79! / USNR - MA2
Retired LEO / PADI MSDT / SDI OW Instructor
Scuba Equipment Tech (PT Retirement Job)

If you can walk away from a landing, its a good landing. If you can use the aircraft the next day, its an outstanding landing. Chuck Yeager

DONATED

Last edited by jrock836 : 05-18-2021 at 02:40 PM.
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