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  #31  
Old 07-15-2021, 09:36 PM
jcarne's Avatar
jcarne jcarne is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Worland, Wyoming
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Z View Post
I have seen the weather significantly lower than forecast. I have seen GPSs do really weird and unexpected things. Often simplicity and reliability is key. The ILS is pretty simple and reliable. NAV capability is something I wouldn't go without on an IFR capable airplane. Might not ever plan on using it. However, one day, it might be worth it's weight in gold. Consider a NAV radio like taking more than minimum fuel, probably not needed until it's really really important.

Granted most of us aren't professional pilots with 25,000hr careers and see multiple issues. How much are you willing to bet that you won't see one of those issues that the professional pilot has seen and is warning us about?
I am nominating this for comment of the day.
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  #32  
Old 07-15-2021, 09:48 PM
GimpyPilot GimpyPilot is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Southern California
Posts: 111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EXTAAFLY View Post
This is a subject that I always find interesting and it will likely generate 3+ pages.

I just re-did my airplane’s entire avionics, electrical, and lighting. My airplane is very light IFR and has only a GNX375 for navigation / approach.

Just as a point of reference, to simply understand where I am coming from on my opinion. Opinion’s right? Please don’t take this as someone throwing their log book around because they think they’re an expert. I am not. That being said, I have a few hours in the book. Professional for 29 years, airline for 25 years, CFII/MEI for 29 years, 23K plus hours in the book, all civilian, and lots of time in bug smashers, but only about 1300 hours in single engine airplanes with about 200+ in RV6/8.

I personally look at flying IMC in RV’s like this; I can, if I have to, but I try to avoid it. Personal minimums are 1000/2. I want a fighting chance when I come out of the clouds with the engine stopped. Now, flying IFR? IE filing IFR to work in the system, flying to say an airport underneath a class B shelf to make the experience a little more efficient, mostly VMC? My ride will do the trick and I can always fall back to dead reckoning if everything goes south and I am down to the G5 and the ipad.

Lots of folks on this web page and YouTube have a far greater level of comfort in flying IMC. There will be hundreds of pages about the “impossible turn” and how it can’t or shouldn’t be tried, but little concern for hours in the soup. Approaches to minimums, IMC the entire flight with low ceilings below. Even icing. Building airplanes with double and triple redundancy. All the while sitting behind one engine, that when/if it quits, there isn’t a backup battery in the world that’s going to get you home that day. Not my cup of tea, but to each their own. I live around mountains and I am almost always flying over terrain that I may have a hard time successfully pulling off an off airport landing. My flying is not without risk. I fly my machine for fun. But I hope to get out and do some traveling soon and like to have the OPTION if I need it, but my personal RV IFR minimums are not flexible and I will always prefer VMC operations.

The depends part? I would commend anyone for getting an Instrument Rating. It is the best rating to improve your skill and knowledge. You will fly a more precise airplane and have a far better understanding of the system you’re working in. It’s THEE license to learn with. If, like Doug, you intend to use your airplane to move through ratings and gain experience, to possibly take up a second side career. Maybe getting a CFI to do some flying on the weekend on somebody else’s dime. Then I say yes! Outfit it with redundancy, IFR GPS and VOR/ILS at a minimum. Lots of ways to do that. From very expensive to reasonable as some have mentioned. If you’re just traveling for the fun of it, and occasionally needing to file IFR and light IMC with high personal minimums, then GPS only is likely acceptable.

This is simply one opinion. You should continue your due diligence and think about how you are really going to operate your airplane. What your personal comfort level is. As always, this should not be taken as a recommendation and your mileage may vary as they say.
I enjoyed reading about your experience and your educated opinion. Thank you. My father is a retired heavy driver with some interesting prior experience as well. Not surprisingly, his risk equation is similar to yours, and thus my own. It's nice to read a corroborating opinion so well explained. That said, GPS approaches were not a thing when my dad retired, and he marvels at the pink line approaches we have now. My airplane has a reasonably complete VOR/NAV/ILS suite as a result, and my dad regales me with tails of ADFs and NDBs regularly.
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Last edited by GimpyPilot : 07-15-2021 at 09:53 PM.
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  #33  
Old 07-16-2021, 05:35 AM
Tooch Tooch is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Amelia, Va
Posts: 309
Default No Nav

I trained and took my IFR check ride a few years back in my RV-7A. NO Nav on my plane just GPS. My DPE said Demonstrating that you could fly an LPV approach was as good as flying an ILS. So it depends on the DPE.
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  #34  
Old 07-16-2021, 08:02 AM
lr172 lr172 is offline
 
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Location: Schaumburg, IL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcarne View Post
.

At least one must be flown without the use of autopilot and without the assistance of radar vectors. The
yaw damper and flight director are not considered parts of the autopilot for purposes of this Task.
.[/indent][/i]
This is interesting. WHen I took the checkride the rule stated that one aapr must be done with the AP. Looks like now the applicant can use AP for two of them. That makes things easier I suppose.
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  #35  
Old 07-16-2021, 08:13 AM
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jcarne jcarne is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lr172 View Post
This is interesting. WHen I took the checkride the rule stated that one aapr must be done with the AP. Looks like now the applicant can use AP for two of them. That makes things easier I suppose.
Interesting. I think the new reg makes sense; if I have an autopilot I am going to use it most of the time. Makes sense to let a candidate use it more often than not. I wonder if it is up to the DPE or candidate to choose which one is done without it.
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  #36  
Old 07-20-2021, 09:40 AM
RV74ME RV74ME is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Auburn, AL
Posts: 231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EXTAAFLY View Post

I personally look at flying IMC in RVs like this; I can, if I have to, but I try to avoid it. Personal minimums are 1000/2. I want a fighting chance when I come out of the clouds with the engine stopped. Now, flying IFR? IE filing IFR to work in the system, flying to say an airport underneath a class B shelf to make the experience a little more efficient, mostly VMC? My ride will do the trick and I can always fall back to dead reckoning if everything goes south and I am down to the G5 and the ipad.


This is simply one opinion. You should continue your due diligence and think about how you are really going to operate your airplane. What your personal comfort level is. As always, this should not be taken as a recommendation and your mileage may vary as they say.
I have the exact same setup as Jason (GNX 375 only), and 100% agree with everything he says. To take it one step further, I make sure I have an alternate that is forecast to be VFR.

In my 35 years/15K hours of flying, I have only lost GPS signal couple of times, and only for a few seconds. I use the exact same personal minimums and am completely comfortable flying GPS only.
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  #37  
Old 07-23-2021, 07:41 PM
tom_AZ tom_AZ is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 39
Default GPS only v. GPS + NAV

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_AZ View Post
Two separate questions:

1) What will I use 99% of the time?
2) What do I feel comfortable with?

The answer to (1) is GPS. Great stability on approach, both lateral and vertical, easy to create non-airway routes, etc... However, at least in the SW, there are FREQUENT NOTAMS about (possible) GPS outages--centered on the White Sands Missile Range, Yuma Proving Grounds, or other locations. Affected radii, even at 4K feet, can be large--400 nm. I flew from Tucson, AZ to Ames, IA the other day, with a fuel stop in the TX panhandle--mostly VFR, but needed to pick up a clearance for an approach. There were NOTAMS as mentioned above on that day. The system wasn't actually affected, but certainly could have created a challenge if it had been and GPS was the only option available to me. Even VFR, there is a lot of relatively featureless landscape along that route--as well as a few needles to be threaded to avoid Restricted Airspace. Sure, we've all done pilotage and ded reckoning, but how much of that have you done recently on long trips over terrain w/o much in the way of landmarks (especially if your sectional is an iPad screen, that now isn't geo-referenced). Doable, yes. Fun, not so much.

I don't disagree a bit that other b/u instrumentation is more important in terms of being able to keep the shiny side up, but there's no reason, except AMUs, that it has to be "or" rather than "and".

Note to self, don't tempt fate by saying that even though there are NOTAMs, the system not actually affected all that often...

Flew home more or less via the reverse course today. Similar NOTAMs, but today the system WAS affected. Motoring along approaching El Paso after deviating a little east to avoid a convective SIGMET. Suddenly the GPS advises signal has been lost and it's in dead reckoning mode...suggest using an alternate navigation source if available. Queried ATC, wondering if it was me or the system. Sure enough, White Sands was jamming GPS from the El Paso area to near Tucson. We were VFR, but it would have been "interesting" if in IMC and there weren't a NAV as backup.
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  #38  
Old 07-24-2021, 03:01 PM
McStevens McStevens is offline
 
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Location: Edmonds, WA
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I'm not a radio guy, but the info I could find says GPS transmits 45 watts from 12,500 miles away and ILS is 25 watts for 15 nm minimum.

Inverse square... something... but again I'm no expert. Seems to me GPS is much weaker and susceptible to outages/interference. So I'm going with a terrestrial backup.
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  #39  
Old 07-25-2021, 01:38 AM
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Steve Ashby Steve Ashby is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Stone Mountain, Georgia
Posts: 490
Default Getting back to the original question . . .

My question is: Are there any ILS/LOC approaches left that do not have a GPS overlay? Also, what about Europe and the rest of the world?
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  #40  
Old 07-25-2021, 11:01 AM
C. Brenden C. Brenden is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Rio Rancho, NM
Posts: 138
Default GPS Jamming is prevalent in the SW

Flew from Albuquerque to Las Cruces NM last week and just south of Albuquerque GPS and ADSB lost due to jamming from White Sands Missile Range. The next day, the same thing happened on the way back. No GPS, no ADSB. This is a regular occurrence and without a VOR some may wander into the restricted area.
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