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  #1  
Old 11-11-2022, 09:20 PM
KeithO KeithO is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Jackson,MI
Posts: 117
Default Viking 110 notice

There have been some RV-12s built with Viking 110 engines, so I just wanted to post some news on this engine here.

In the last 6 months there have been 2 in flight fatigue failures of the gearbox input drive flange ears, one each on 2 different aircraft. One failed at 130 hours total, the second failed at approximately 800 hours. I am attaching a picture showing the fatigue crack on the 800 hour engine where the drive ear departed the airframe after tearing apart the radiator and cooling tube on the side of the engine.

Both failures occurred during take off. one caused the total loss of the airplane, the second the pilot was able to do a 180 and downwind landing on the same runway used for take off. Both had the potential to be fatal accidents, it was just a question of how high above ground the airplane was able to get prior to failure.

If you have one of these engines, PLEASE remove the gearbox and inspect both drive flanges for fatigue cracks. Dye penetrant will find even small cracks. Al that is needed is a new centering bushing from Viking so that the gearbox is properly located when it is put back on.

If you inspect your drive flanges and do find cracks, inform the factory, you will need to get replacement parts. Replacing the flange on the flywheel side is pretty simple but for the pressed on gearbox input flange you may want to ship it back to Viking to get replaced. I'm assuming none of the replacement parts will be free, but if quite a few are needed Viking will be able to make a bigger batch which may save some money. Viking is claiming that only engines that did not comply with the flywheel and drive flange AD are at risk, but based on my investigation the failure at 130 hours was in full compliance with all the correct parts. I would suggest better safe than sorry. Im pretty sure the centering bushing does not cost much if indeed your parts turn out to be fine.

Be careful out there...

Keith Olivier
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  #2  
Old 11-11-2022, 10:58 PM
Marc Bourget Marc Bourget is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Stockton, California
Posts: 385
Default

I was active on the Sonex site around 2009 and, possessing expertise in liquid cooling systems, I started investigating the background of Viking’s Honda conversion. A series of claims advanced by Jan proved to be not just negligent but patently false. In response to one of my questions he claimed to have consulted a radiator manufacturer, but his extended response clearly revealed that he had no idea (at the time, I don't know now) on how to size a radiator. I contacted the radiator manufacturer’s technical department and actually spoke with the design engineer. He was the person that would respond to any such inquiry, had never heard of Jan Eggenfellner and never spoke with anyone regarding an aircraft application for that radiator.

My continued investigation turned another patently false premise. I made a point to visit the Viking tent at OSH that year and not seeing Jan, I spoke with a Viking Rep expressing my desire to speak with him. I was asked to wait while he went in search of Jan. He came back to say he was unavailable and to come back later. As the Rep left, another bystander told me that Jan was there, saw me coming, acted disturbed and left the site.

Just went to the Viking webpage and read the following:

"Here at Viking, we spend every waking moment thinking about torsion dampers, radiator efficiency, and all sorts of things related to engines and flying machines."

Anybody interested would do well by reading the Landoll thread on this site or visiting the Homebuiltairplanes forum and read the thread on PSRU's

Reading the above post I’m reminded of the wise saying:

“ plus ça change plus c'est la meme chose?”
(the more things change, the more they stay the same).

As I said so many years before, Caveat Emptor!

Last edited by Marc Bourget : 11-12-2022 at 07:05 AM. Reason: spelling and content clarity
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  #3  
Old 11-12-2022, 12:17 AM
sc_pilot's Avatar
sc_pilot sc_pilot is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Santa Cruz, California
Posts: 20
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Not sure if it applies to this but I just finished reading a post on Facebook that a SB for the 110 is going to be coming out for adding a 5th gearbox attach point to increase gearbox rigidity. Maybe there will be a SB for this issue too. Not sure, don’t own/know much about a Viking, am interested in one for my rv12 though.

Jacob
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RV-12iS
Emp & Wings - in progress.
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Finish - on order.

Santa Cruz, Ca
EAA 119 ~ KWVI
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  #4  
Old 11-12-2022, 02:15 AM
KeithO KeithO is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Jackson,MI
Posts: 117
Default

Jacob, trust me the 2 things are related. If Jan comes up with a better 110 gearbox mount I expect these issues will go away because he is not having the same problem on the 90, 130, 150 or the turbo engines. Its just a matter of convincing him to do the right thing so the 110 fleet can keep chugging along without falling out the sky...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sc_pilot View Post
Not sure if it applies to this but I just finished reading a post on Facebook that a SB for the 110 is going to be coming out for adding a 5th gearbox attach point to increase gearbox rigidity. Maybe there will be a SB for this issue too. Not sure, don’t own/know much about a Viking, am interested in one for my rv12 though.

Jacob
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  #5  
Old 11-12-2022, 09:54 AM
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rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 6,406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Bourget View Post

Just went to the Viking webpage and read the following:

"Here at Viking, we spend every waking moment thinking about torsion dampers, radiator efficiency, and all sorts of things related to engines and flying machines."

“ plus ça change plus c'est la meme chose?”
(the more things change, the more they stay the same).
Jan might spend a lot of time "thinking" about these things but he actually still doesn't understand much about either topic as evidenced by poor design after poor design he puts out. Cutting his rubber/ corded damper with a saw ranks right up there with his other guesses.

He should have a qualified engineer on staff experienced in these fields. Could have saved a lot of money, time and grief for himself and customers.

Yeah, with enough trial and error you may eventually get it right- or not. In the meantime customers are at risk due to your lack of knowledge.

Why not do a proper TV study and the design the PSRU properly from the get go? The cost could be amortized over many hundreds of engines.

Thanks Keith for your research and bringing this to the attention of Viking owners.
__________________

Ross Farnham, Calgary, Alberta
Turbo Subaru EJ22, SDS EFI, Marcotte M-300, IVO, Shorai- RV6A C-GVZX flying from CYBW since 2003- 460.7 hrs. on the Hobbs,
RV10 95% built- Sold 2016
http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiy...g2GvQfelECCGoQ



Last edited by rv6ejguy : 11-12-2022 at 10:00 AM.
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  #6  
Old 11-12-2022, 01:23 PM
KeithO KeithO is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Jackson,MI
Posts: 117
Default

I made a posting on ZENITH ZODIACS 601/650 LOW WINGERS and first Alissa then Jan attacked anyone who had anything to say and eventually the entire thread was deleted and Jan and Alissa got blocked. I was disapointed that the original post same as this one was not left up. There are a lot of people that need to know.

The attached did get posted on Zenith Aircraft Engines FB page yesterday after some public shaming.
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  #7  
Old 11-12-2022, 06:13 PM
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rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 6,406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeithO View Post
I made a posting on ZENITH ZODIACS 601/650 LOW WINGERS and first Alissa then Jan attacked anyone who had anything to say and eventually the entire thread was deleted and Jan and Alissa got blocked.
Nothing much has changed in the last 15 years since the Subaru days. Bring problems out into the open which could injure people and you're vilified.

TLAR/TLAW engineering isn't a good approach for a vendor selling critical airplane parts. You'll be forever redesigning stuff that fails and apologizing to your customers while reducing confidence in your products and capabilities.

Almost no design or product is perfect first time around, no matter how much engineering and testing went into it and all designs can benefit from field experience to be made better. But when you are guessing and don't do any long term testing, you're asking for a lot more problems down the road.

I don't have a problem with amateurs making their own PSRUs for themselves but that's in a different realm than selling it to others thinking they are getting a well tested, reliable and safe unit. Your customers should not be your beta testers unless they are fully aware of that fact.
__________________

Ross Farnham, Calgary, Alberta
Turbo Subaru EJ22, SDS EFI, Marcotte M-300, IVO, Shorai- RV6A C-GVZX flying from CYBW since 2003- 460.7 hrs. on the Hobbs,
RV10 95% built- Sold 2016
http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiy...g2GvQfelECCGoQ


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  #8  
Old 11-12-2022, 07:34 PM
lndwarrior lndwarrior is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Cloverdale CA
Posts: 339
Default Not fair

This has turned into a Jan bashing. Unfairly, I think.

Last edited by lndwarrior : 11-12-2022 at 07:40 PM.
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  #9  
Old 11-12-2022, 10:23 PM
warmi warmi is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Frankfort,IL
Posts: 5
Default

Penny Wise and Pound Foolish - Rotax is certainly more expensive but it does have well tested (50 000+ engines ) package - and I do mean the entire package, including gearbox.
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  #10  
Old 11-12-2022, 10:33 PM
KeithO KeithO is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Jackson,MI
Posts: 117
Default

Folks, the problem is totally fixable. Its just not something that the average owner can do himself. When Jan developed the Viking 110 engine he had not yet discovered the "proper" way to utilize a modern car engine, but he has learned. The 130 and 150 and 90 engines are far more mature and robust.

You will see that Jan leaves these engines alone and just adds the parts he needs to have an airplane engine. The gearbox mounts are 1000% better than the Viking 110. The days of sawing bits off the block and adding a ton of cnc billet parts are over. The engines are also left vertical as the car makers intended and the gearbox gets an extra gear to put the prop hub in the right place. Steel flywheels are used, not pocketed out billet aluminum that cracked at the crank interface and has ring gears that flew off.

So, Jan knows how to fix the Viking 110 but has been downplaying and suppressing the failures that have been out there and blaming them on the customers. Given that according to their records 450 of the engines were sold, that is a lot of engines that could fail in the manner described in this thread, in takeoff mode and sooner or later people are going to be killed. It seems, after some ribbing that he has now actually considered this liability a bit more seriously. He can now develop a new gearbox back plate and add a bracket to the block to attach it to on the opposite side of the block to where all the current mount pads are at and then it becomes a mandatory update and people will pay for the parts and get their engines updated. I certainly hope he goes through with it because it will save all the owners who have the 450 Viking 110s from being forced to re-power after we get some deaths from the gearbox failing. Because that is the way this is going to go if nothing happens.
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