VAF Forums

VAF Forums (https://vansairforce.net/community/index.php)
-   Traditional Aircraft Engines (https://vansairforce.net/community/forumdisplay.php?f=21)
-   -   ECI Cerminil Cylinder ? Service Life Experience? (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=83590)

Ironflight 03-06-2012 09:13 PM

ECI Cerminil Cylinder ? Service Life Experience?
 
The engine in the Valkyrie (my RV-8) was built in early 2005 out of all ECI components, and has been one of the smoothest running engines I have ever flown behind (others have remarked on that ? it?s not just me!). Smooth and powerful - but it has never had what I would call ?great? oil consumption ? the best being about 8 hours to the quart, the average being closer to 6.5 hrs/quart. While the engine has continued to run great, the past year has seen increased oil consumption and, more recently, decreasing compression. I finally decided to go ahead and pull the jugs and do at least a re-ringing job.

After discussions with several cylinder shops and engine builders, I decided to take the recommendations of some trusted guys, and go ahead and replace the jugs. The determining factor was the reluctance of shops to hone the nickel cylinders, and the fact that once a jug goes into the shop, it really needs to be checked out completely ? and with that many hours, it is pretty normal to need some valve and/or piston work ? things can add up quickly, and the price of new cylinders just isn?t that much. I decided to go straight to four new jugs.

Anyway, I am curious how others have done with their Cerminil cylinders. I expect that I might be near the high end of hours on a set, but would love to hear how many others have on theirs to date, and if they are still going strong ? or when they had to be replaced.

1450 hours on mine, and going to retire them.

Paul

rocketbob 03-06-2012 11:06 PM

There is no nickel or chrome cylinder in existence that doesn't use oil. Its physically impossible due to the bore being too smooth. No hone pattern to retain oil to prevent the rings from hydroplaning. As they wear to be even more polished, the oil consumption goes higher. It is bothersome but if it were me I'd just live with it until TBO if its running well. There is always the chance that the new cylinders may not have been honed to ideal roughness and so you might end up spending a bunch of $$ and end up not much better than where you are now on oil consumption.

Ironflight 03-07-2012 05:31 AM

That's good information Bob, and I appreciate you adding it - because I think a lot of folks don't know that the hard-plated cylinders do burn more oil. I am one that believes that if the engine is generally running well, leave it alone, so long as nothing is changing. In this particular case, the engine basically dropped off the cliff in a very short number of hours compressions dropped drastically, and oil consumption shot up....I flew it for 30 hours or so more, watching carefully to see if it was just an anomaly - it wasn't. Since I fly it on long trips and IFR, I decided it was finally time to address it. (Group A's that I have done the AD testing on BTW).

But what I really want to do with this thread is get actual hours in service that people have experienced with the ECI Cerminils. Has anyone gone 2,000 hours?

Paul

Stu McCurdy 03-07-2012 07:45 AM

ECI Titan Cylinders
 
I upgraded from Sentry to ECI Titan cylinders several years ago, now have about 500 hrs on them. I started out burning about 8 hrs/qt, then over about 50 hrs it went steadily up to 10, then 12, then 15, and now I get about 20 hrs/qt. Last compression check in February was 80/80, 80/80, 79/80, 80/80 done after flying it for an hour. For about the first 50 hrs I was unable to lean it to expected fuel flow numbers because of CHT, but now I can get what I normally expect.

I ran it hard for first 10 hours to ensure good break in.

Guy Prevost 03-07-2012 07:55 AM

I'm not a high time user with only 350 hours on my bird, but my ECI engine goes 20hrs/qt. There is one other ECI engine on the field that I am aware of. That engine is higher time than mine and uses less oil. I'm interested to see the results of this as well. My compression is 79/80 on all cylinders warm, and 77-78/80 cold.

Guy

Ironflight 03-07-2012 08:05 AM

Thanks Stu and Guy - do you know if your cylinders are Cerminil's or not? ECI has made several different types of bores.

rocketbob 03-07-2012 08:23 AM

Also knowing what rings were used is another variable that has to be considered. ECI rings have a moly face on the top two rings and they have an altogether different shape than do Superior and Lycoming piston rings.

Ironflight 03-07-2012 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocketbob (Post 637187)
Also knowing what rings were used is another variable that has to be considered. ECI rings have a moly face on the top two rings and they have an altogether different shape than do Superior and Lycoming piston rings.

True - let's assume that the engines were assembled with the correct parts.

I'll be totally open - when I had my engien built, the Cerminils were fairly new. Because I have been flying 250 hours a year (or so), I have put a lot of time on in a short period. I'm just wondering if anyone has gotten MORE than 1500 hours on a set of Cerminils, or if I'm just reaching out beyond the experience base.

CPSONE 03-07-2012 10:09 AM

rings for cerminil
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rocketbob (Post 637187)
Also knowing what rings were used is another variable that has to be considered. ECI rings have a moly face on the top two rings and they have an altogether different shape than do Superior and Lycoming piston rings.

Ditto...Make sure you use the ECI recommended rings for the cermilil cylinders. See my post on broken rings here. My engine shop which I will never use ever again put the wrong rings in. Result low compression on one cylinder (one broken ring) and 0 compression on another cylinder (both compression rings broken). (btw I had all other cylinders removed and re-ringed)
They run smooth as silk though.

rocketbob 03-07-2012 10:34 AM

Spelled out here: http://www.eci.aero/pdf/94-4-1.pdf

So it is prudent to know when comparing Titan cerminil cylinder service history which ring sets were used; CC201 or CC202. There's a big difference between the two sets specified for Cerminil cylinders.

Guy Prevost 03-07-2012 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironflight (Post 637178)
Thanks Stu and Guy - do you know if your cylinders are Cerminil's or not? ECI has made several different types of bores.

My cylinders are Nickel+Carbide. I'm not sure if this is the same as Ceraminil or not. The engine was built by Mattituck in late 2007.

Guy

Brockster 03-07-2012 11:22 AM

Upper compression ring problem
 
Right now I have 4 ECi cerminil cylinders with 325 hours on a O-360 that the coating on the upper compression ring is actually peeling off the ring. In the process of submitting warranty claim. Have learned that this is a common problem and uncertain if it has been resolved. Will take a picture tonight and post tomorrow. Never seen anything like it before. Supposedly the difference in the expansion rates of the base metal and the coating are different enough to cause this issue.

jbDC9 03-07-2012 12:06 PM

Ruh roh... makes me wonder if I have troubles ahead on the horizon. My O-360 has original Lycoming jugs but overhauled by ECi using their Cerminil process in 2005. I'm at around 890 hours and so far, so good. Compressions are usually in the mid-70's and oil burn is usually 8-10 hours per quart. After hearing so many reports of other engines getting 20-25 hrs per qt I was disappointed in my consumption, but after reading Paul's and Bob's posts, I guess it's not really that bad. I'll keep on tracking the oil and maybe start doing more regular compression checks, just in case. That and keep my fingers crossed!

Tom Martin 03-07-2012 12:17 PM

At four hundred hours I sent my cylinders back for the warranty work. When we removed them we found the piston skirts scuffed and the surface of the compression rings delaminated. Apparently this happened on some, not all, of the early rings in this series. I did get cylinders but the pistons had to be replaced. Oil consumption was going up and it is a good thing that I went for the warranty job. Anyways, the rings have been done with a new process and as of last year there were no reported problems. I am happy with the four new, two rebuilt cylinders. So far normal oil consumption after 150 hours. I thought ECI handled the situation ok, at least in my case.

RONSIM 03-07-2012 01:16 PM

How about a quart every two hours
 
on the RV-10, from day one -- new ECI Nickel cylinders in early 2005 --- "A" Group, 120 hrs total. ----- What is not coming out the breather (lots), I assume is getting burned --- just did compression check, one at 69, rest mid 70's.

Does not sound like Paul is finding anyone with really high-time ECIs.

Bummer!

Ironflight 03-07-2012 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Martin (Post 637253)
When we removed them we found the piston skirts scuffed and the surface of the compression rings delaminated. Apparently this happened on some, not all, of the early rings in this series. .

I took a close look at the pistons that I removed, and I am seeing the same thing Tom! A post earlier talked about the same thing. I have the scuffing on the skirts, and that's one of the reasons that i just decided to go ahead and get all new assemblies - rather than nickel and diming, I just figured I'd call it a top - which isn't that bad at this number of hours.

Still looking for someone (else) with high time Cerminils!

Paul

aerhed 03-07-2012 06:36 PM

Not trying to get OT, but I've always associated scuffed skirts to be indication of too high piston temps. The lyc pistons are cam ground after all and supposedly they do go from oval cold to round at some temp. If they exceed that temp they start to go oval the other way with the big axis perpendicular to the pin. Isn't that right?

rocketbob 03-07-2012 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerhed (Post 637353)
Not trying to get OT, but I've always associated scuffed skirts to be indication of too high piston temps. The lyc pistons are cam ground after all and supposedly they do go from oval cold to round at some temp. If they exceed that temp they start to go oval the other way with the big axis perpendicular to the pin. Isn't that right?

Yep correct.

Skytrash 03-07-2012 07:36 PM

How can I tell if my cylinders are Cerminil?
 
I have over 2,000 hours on my Aerosport O-320-D1A assembled in early 2004. Still have good compressions, three 78's and a 79. Oil cunsumption has been in the 12-15 hours per quart range and consistent. I do an oil analysis at every oil change and had only one analysis that had slightly high aluminum. All other have been normal.

My parts list that came with the engine doesn't list cylinders, at least I can't find them, maybe a different description. My cylinders are in the SB, the group that requires compression and visual inspections.

I commute to work 4 days a week in the RV, about 1.6 Hobbs time per day. 350 to 400 hours a year.

How do you identify cerminil cylinders?

LifeofReiley 03-07-2012 07:56 PM

Nickel ECI, 2.5 quarts in 50 hr oil change...

Ironflight 03-07-2012 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeofReiley (Post 637377)
Nickel ECI, 2.5 quarts in 50 hr oil change...

And the hours you have on them?

hgerhardt 03-07-2012 10:16 PM

Sent my orig 2100-hr-since-new Lyc jugs to ECI for overhaul and nickel-carbide treatment on the original cylinders (IO-360-A). Developed a crack in the crankcase 44 hours after O/H, so I had the opportunity to thoroughly inspect all the parts. The pistons/rings/cylinders looked perfect, including the skirts. Now have 370 hours on the O/H and oil consumption is ~10-12 hrs/qt, and has been steady since break-in. Compressions are 76-78 and have not varied. Sure hope I get 2000 hrs out of these things, although at the rate I'm going that will be another 15 years.
Also been using Phillips XC 20-50 since the O/H as recommended by ECI, although I have no idea if that will help or hinder ultimate hours.

sailvi767 03-08-2012 05:30 AM

I have 500 hours on group A cylinders. Engine was built in 2004 and has 10 to 1 compression. No problems at this point. I had to pull one cylinder that showed on and off low compression leaking through the exhaust valve. Turned out to be a bad valve seat when they were cut for higher flow by lycon when new. Penn Yan looked over the rest of the cylinder and found everything to be in great shape. Everyone I have discussed the group A cylinders with says to run them to TBO that there have been no failures beyond the norm with those cylinders. Mine are nickel carbide. Cerminal is a different process from the nickel carbide cylinders. I am told that the nickel carbide cylinders in addition to easy break in have shown virtually no rust even in engines with long down times.

George

LifeofReiley 03-08-2012 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironflight (Post 637388)
And the hours you have on them?

260 Hrs on the Hobbs.

BillL 03-08-2012 07:10 AM

More Information if you don't mind. . .
 
Paul,
I have no information to your specific question, however to your engine . . Specific engine conditions affect the results - so what is your compression ratio, do you use timing advance (electronic Ignition or std mags) and does your engine have piston oil cooling jets.

You slipped in new information about the internal conditions - like scuffed pistons, so what about the ring gaps, were they grown substantially? Was there material transfer on the faces of the rings? Or was material missing from the ring - bore contact areas? Was the top land of the piston showing any mild signs of detonation? All of these things indicate how YOUR engine is running and what might have led to the shortened life, other than the bore material itself. For now, let's leave out oil discussions as it is assumed you had frequent oil changes and that wear metals were not showing in your oil analysis, and that additive packages (TBN) were still working well.

Do you run at LOP or ROP in typical flight?

There has to be a root cause for why your cylinders did not reach your life expectations. the actual wear conditions of the components may (usually do) lend some clues as to what sensitivities may exist with this situation.

Sorry for so many questions . . . Thanks for posting your experience here so we all might learn.

Ironflight 03-08-2012 09:56 AM

You're right Bill - this little request for information doesn't take into account the wide number of variables that go into cylinder/engine life. It's not intended to be scientific - just a curiosity (most folks do like to brag if they get exceptional life out of something).

My engine is a plain-Jane 180 HP, carburated, normal compression engine that I run LOP in cruise. CHT's are usually around 330 - 350 in that condition, rarely if ever do they see more than 400 in a climb on a hot day. Has run with mags until very recently. I haven't measured the ring gaps (don't have the right tools to do it), and probably won't be able to do much more analysis.

I'm just curious how many folks have gotten this many hours on a set!

Paul

chuckwn 03-08-2012 11:25 PM

Some Data
 
1800+ hours Since Overhaul on my Lycoming Cylinders. They were overhauled by J&J Airparts using the Cerminil process Early 2000. Total time on the cylinders is 4000+ hours.

Compressions have always been 75/80 or better.

Oil consumption is ~6 hours/quart and has been that rate for all 1800+ hours. I attribute the slightly high oil consumption to excessive ground running before the first flight (11 years ago!) and some cylinder glazing.

hgerhardt 03-08-2012 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironflight (Post 637527)
My engine is a plain-Jane 180 HP, carburated, normal compression ...

Paul, does your engine have piston cooling nozzles? Those could have a bearing on potential life of the rings... especially when you're using moly-filled top rings as ECI does with their plated cylinders.

And, did you notice any scuffing in the cylinders (either now or previously), or only on the piston skirts?

uk_figs 11-26-2019 11:46 AM

How to tell which cylinders
 
I built my ECI 0-360 from a kit in 2008, how do you tell which type of ECI cylinders you have? So far have around 550 hours and oil consumption is around 10+ hours per quart.
Figs

theduff 11-27-2019 04:58 AM

Cerminil Cylinders
 
The obvious way is the painted patch on top (between pushrods) of the Cylinders. ECI Cylinders have a blue and silver stripe to designate cerminil plated process. You?ll observe Lycoming cylinders typically have a blue stripe which designates standard bore nitride hardened steel.

F1Boss 11-27-2019 06:10 AM

So far, good
 
625hrs on my cermanil cylinders. If I run the oil at 6qt - not the full 10qt the engine will hold - I get 10-12hrs/qt on a TCM 550. While the TCM series of engines is not known for good cylinder compression checks, mine are in the upper 70s with one at 80. I would say these cyls might go to TB if those numbers hold up.

The SC 550 that will go in the next project was one of the last set of cyls built up by ECI before they shut down. I hope those perform in a similar manner.

BTW had a C-45 for a while - those engines were certainly OH?d (repeatedly?) thru their life - had 78/80 in all 9 cyls at 700hrs on one engine. No filters on that installation - I?d call that exceptional. I changed that engine at 1000hrs as recommended, tho it was still running strong.

flysrv10 11-27-2019 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironflight (Post 637089)
The engine in the Valkyrie (my RV-8) was built in early 2005 out of all ECI components, and has been one of the smoothest running engines I have ever flown behind (others have remarked on that ? it?s not just me!). Smooth and powerful - but it has never had what I would call ?great? oil consumption ? the best being about 8 hours to the quart, the average being closer to 6.5 hrs/quart. While the engine has continued to run great, the past year has seen increased oil consumption and, more recently, decreasing compression. I finally decided to go ahead and pull the jugs and do at least a re-ringing job.

After discussions with several cylinder shops and engine builders, I decided to take the recommendations of some trusted guys, and go ahead and replace the jugs. The determining factor was the reluctance of shops to hone the nickel cylinders, and the fact that once a jug goes into the shop, it really needs to be checked out completely ? and with that many hours, it is pretty normal to need some valve and/or piston work ? things can add up quickly, and the price of new cylinders just isn?t that much. I decided to go straight to four new jugs.

Anyway, I am curious how others have done with their Cerminil cylinders. I expect that I might be near the high end of hours on a set, but would love to hear how many others have on theirs to date, and if they are still going strong ? or when they had to be replaced.

1450 hours on mine, and going to retire them.

Paul

see this tread http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...ht=wobble+test.

Mine lasted 1400 hrs. everything was good except one valve was out of spec and the other 5 were at limit. Replaced them all with Millinum, just to try a different product.

jbDC9 01-20-2022 11:16 PM

1875
 
Updating an old thread;

1875 hours on my ECI cylinders, and methinks they need help.

These particular jugs were manufactured in 1995 by Lycoming and run for 1660 hours on a Geronimo Apache before I bought it in 2005. I had it field overhauled with the Lyc jugs getting the ECI Cerminil treatment and then hung it on the RV for the current 1875 hour run. I've had no real issues with 'em other than a stuck exhaust valve six years ago, but as Paul noted on the original post, the oil consumption has crept up; it started out using a quart every 10 hours, but has been slowly creeping up to using a quart every 4 hours. Compressions have been good, but recently I noticed some leakage through the valves and rings; the latest compression check had #4 holding but 10 psi and a tornado blowing out the exhaust. Yep, that valve is done. Time to yank 'em all.

So, I thought I'd source a new set of Milleniums and keep on trucking, but nay, it was not meant to be! Apparently new cylinders are pretty much unobtainium right now with several month back orders everywhere I inquired. Now what? I'll try to get these overhauled; my local shop here in Houston likes J&J Airparts near San Antonio, but, J&J wouldn't touch the Cerminils for rework/repair. Next call was to Sal's Cylinders up in Prosper, TX. Yep, he says, bring 'em up. So, I'm gonna have Sal have a look at them and cross my fingers...

I'd prefer to go with all new jugs, but, if I can get another 1000 hours (10 years?) out of these I'll be happy, then maybe splurge on a shiny new engine.

KayS 01-21-2022 03:02 AM

i do have now 160 hours on my nickel plated ECI titan cylinders... not the high time Paul was asking for. but looks good so far. after brake in the oil consumption stabilized at around 7 hours / quart. not great but ok for me.

it seems to me that a common problem that could appear on these cylinders is delamination of the nickel surface. is there anything we can do during normal operation to lower the likelihood of that problem?

i only understood that low CHT's might be a good thing in this regard.

9GT 01-21-2022 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbDC9 (Post 1583624)
So, I thought I'd source a new set of Milleniums and keep on trucking, but nay, it was not meant to be! Apparently new cylinders are pretty much unobtainium right now with several month back orders everywhere I inquired.

I have 4 Millenium power assemblies on back order for a couple months now from AirPower with an estimated shipping date sometime in the spring. Last week I was notified by AirPower that for the first time Superior was not going to honor order time pricing on back ordered parts, and distributors will be charged with the latest pricing increase when they ship. I don't blame them for doing this considering the supply chain issues and wild inflation we are going through now. I am thankful that a later shipping date does not effect progress on my project. I would hate it if I needed them today.

sailvi767 01-21-2022 08:17 AM

I have friends looking for cylinders. They seem to be impossible to find. Anyone who suspects they will be needing new cylinders should get them on order soon. Overhaul shops are also back logged.

Ironflight 01-21-2022 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbDC9 (Post 1583624)
Updating an old thread;

1875 hours on my ECI cylinders, and methinks they need help.

These particular jugs were manufactured in 1995 by Lycoming and run for 1660 hours on a Geronimo Apache before I bought it in 2005. I had it field overhauled with the Lyc jugs getting the ECI Cerminil treatment and then hung it on the RV for the current 1875 hour run. I've had no real issues with 'em other than a stuck exhaust valve six years ago, but as Paul noted on the original post, the oil consumption has crept up; it started out using a quart every 10 hours, but has been slowly creeping up to using a quart every 4 hours. Compressions have been good, but recently I noticed some leakage through the valves and rings; the latest compression check had #4 holding but 10 psi and a tornado blowing out the exhaust. Yep, that valve is done. Time to yank 'em all.

So, I thought I'd source a new set of Milleniums and keep on trucking, but nay, it was not meant to be! Apparently new cylinders are pretty much unobtainium right now with several month back orders everywhere I inquired. Now what? I'll try to get these overhauled; my local shop here in Houston likes J&J Airparts near San Antonio, but, J&J wouldn't touch the Cerminils for rework/repair. Next call was to Sal's Cylinders up in Prosper, TX. Yep, he says, bring 'em up. So, I'm gonna have Sal have a look at them and cross my fingers...

I'd prefer to go with all new jugs, but, if I can get another 1000 hours (10 years?) out of these I'll be happy, then maybe splurge on a shiny new engine.

Interesting history John - in the case that started this thread, I had actually talked to Sal, and at least at that time, he said he had a pile of junk Cerminil cylinders out in the grass behind his shop that he wouldnít/couldnít work on because of the surface treatment.

All the cylinders Iíve used since have been genuine plain-jane nitrided Lycomings - they break in fast and easy, and just keep workingÖ.but I havenít tired to buy any recently!

Iíve got to wonder how engine build shops are surviving with the parts shortages - you canít finish an engine unless you have ALL the bits and pieces, and you canít get paid if you canít roll engines out the doorsÖ.

Paul

9GT 02-10-2022 07:02 PM

Update
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 9GT (Post 1583673)
I have 4 Millenium power assemblies on back order for a couple months now from AirPower with an estimated shipping date sometime in the spring. Last week I was notified by AirPower that for the first time Superior was not going to honor order time pricing on back ordered parts, and distributors will be charged with the latest pricing increase when they ship. I don't blame them for doing this considering the supply chain issues and wild inflation we are going through now. I am thankful that a later shipping date does not effect progress on my project. I would hate it if I needed them today.

Just an update that I received my Superior cylinder power assemblies today from AirPower.

chaskuss 02-13-2022 08:07 AM

Perspiring minds want to know!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 9GT (Post 1588392)
Just an update that I received my Superior cylinder power assemblies today from AirPower.

Dave,
Would you mind divulging what they charged you for the cylinders?

Charlie Kuss [rhymes with puss. German word for kiss]

9GT 02-13-2022 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaskuss (Post 1588977)
Dave,
Would you mind divulging what they charged you for the cylinders?

Charlie Kuss [rhymes with puss. German word for kiss]

Sure, $1257.00 per power assembly. Free shipping.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:02 AM.