Instrument training with MGL panel, should/can it be done?

Good Morning,

I am just starting the "watching the DVDs" stage of my instrument training journey.

My ship currently has only VFR instrumentation. I am considering the MGL Odyssey for my panel.

It appears that I must demonstrate 3 different types of approaches for my practical and I am too ignorant to be able to discern whether the MGL will do three different approaches.

I am aware of the debate concerning the best way to train, be it steam or digital. My thought is that if I am going to fly a glass panel I may as well learn on it. The likelihood of my borrowing an airplane with round gauges and blasting off into the clouds seems rather remote. Then there is the money aspect, I can save some of the ?steam gauge? aircraft rental to put into my own panel. I am still open to persuasion.

Does one need the relative stability of a Piper or Cessna to do primary instrument training?

I instrument knowledge an empty vessel, any input will help.

Thanks, Tim.

FWIW, I did all my instrument training in my RV which has glass panel (dual GRT) with steam gauges as back.

Training in a RV, makes the task harder as oppose to a Piper or Cessna but I thought the glass panel compensated for that and made flying instrument easier, much easier in my opinion.

I primarily did it in my RV since I will be flying that so no sense in learning it in a different platform and then having to transfer the learning into RV.

As for MGL, (I may get flamed for saying this) I don't know enough about it but when I was building and looked into MGL as a possible solution, I was not meeting my requirements for IFR.

Good luck with your training, it is definitely worth all the pain one goes thru.

And happy Thanksgiving

An EFIS for navigatin in IMC is only as good as the data/nav sources it is connected to....most all modern EFIS systems can work well in IMC as a flight instrument platform with the appropriate level of backups.

If your gonna shoot VOR/LOC/GS based approaches, you need some sort of NAV receiver like an SL30. If your gonna shoot GPS based approaches, your gonna need some sort of approach certified panel mount GPS. If you want to shoot LPV approaches, you need a approach certified panel mount WAAS GPS. You can get a combo box like the 430W that does em all. Most people sub GPS for ADF/DME these days so it depends on what you have for those type approaches. The handhelds available today do not qualify nor do any of the virtual approach/HITS stuff in the experimental EFIS market today.

Without suitable navigation equipment on board, you will not be able to properly complete your instrument training or take your practical test in the airplane. Sure you can use the tools available to do fake practice approaches but that is not realistic and no good examiner is going to allow it.

Brantel said:

An EFIS for navigatin in IMC is only as good as the data/nav sources it is connected to....most all modern EFIS systems can work well in IMC as a flight instrument platform with the appropriate level of backups.

Click to expand...

So, what I think I understand from your post here is that the EFIS is legally only the display for the information that is streamed in from the SL30 or 430W or other approach certified instruments.

Thus to train in my ship I would need to have these installed as well.

I fear that this will take me above my available budget for this endeavor.

Great info but not very welcome to me eyes, dangit.

Tim

Well, you're going to have to have some kind of nav/comm in your plane anyway, right?
You could use a KX-155 or similar nav/comm, and instead of having a standard 3" CDI, have it feed into your EFIS and display on the screen. The EFIS is simply replacing your CDI (for this purpose). Whatever nav/comm you were planning to use anyway could still be used.

To take your IFR checkride, you must be able to demonstrate three different instrument approaches; one must be a precision approach. You can do a VOR approach, a localizer approach and an ILS approach without an IFR GPS. If you have an approved GPS (need not be IFR certified) you can also use it to substitute a DME, giving you another available approach.

In real-life terms, you'll want an IFR approved GPS if you plan to do much IFR flying down the road. But for getting your instrument rating, you can easily do it without one.

Some radio's like the KX-155 only support analog output signals, some radio's have built in vor/loc converters and some don't. Many of the experimental EFIS's cannot handle these since King seems to always do things their own way and make them non standard.

Keep this in mind and know for sure that whatever radio you plan to use will talk to your EFIS...

Most all of the current EFIS's support the SL-30 fully over a simple serial connection. Most of them support the Garmin 430/530/480 series over ARINC(may need an additional adaptor) and most of them support simple NMEA data from GPS's.

Bottom line is make sure your EFIS and Radio/GPS have interfaces that can play nice together.

Just my $.02. If you already have a six pack of guages, you could add a Garmin 430W to your panel now (about 5-6K used) and get your instrument. Then when the piggy bank is full again get the EFIS.

Good luck finding a 430W for 5-6K. Non W models sure but W models....not many legit W models even out there for sale used.

Those so called deals on EBAY and Barnstormers that are too good to be true are!

For whatever reason, the used prices for legit non W models has remained high. I would have expected the price to drop on them since it takes $3K to get em upgraded. I guess not everyone needs the W model features?

My plan has been to purchase a Dynon Skyview (dual) and Garmin 300XL GPS (ifr cert and has comm) I have been told (by my instructed who now works for the FAA) that I can use this set up for IFR approaches for ie. VOR, ADF, of course non-precision gps approaches. Even though I don't have a NAV, the GPS will substitute for it since it picks up any VOR, ADF... My plan will be to eventually add an SL-30 so that I can pick up ILS too...

IFR for the RV

I am currently training for my instrument license in a G1000 equipt 172. The panel on my RV-7A is being converted to IFR now. I should (hopefully) have my instrument rating done in the 172 before my RV is converted. My RV will have 2 Garmin G3X displays, a TruTrak autopilot, ONE Garmin 420W to fly IFR (sole source), ONE Garmin SL40, and transponder. My backup flight instruments will consist of a Dynon D10A.

The regs no longer require VOR if you have a WAAS GPS. If I lose the 420W in flight I still have the SL40 comm and each G3X has its own GPS that I can use for emergency navigation. I have 2 alternators and the D10-A has its own battery.

The G1000 Training should be satisfactory for me to transition to the G3X displays and I can take my checkride and do the 3 approaches using the Garmin G1000.

Victor

It is not that simple...outside the scope of this thread but there is much more to this subject....

miyu1975 said:

My plan has been to purchase a Dynon Skyview (dual) and Garmin 300XL GPS (ifr cert and has comm) I have been told (by my instructed who now works for the FAA) that I can use this set up for IFR approaches for ie. VOR, ADF, of course non-precision gps approaches. Even though I don't have a NAV, the GPS will substitute for it since it picks up any VOR, ADF... My plan will be to eventually add an SL-30 so that I can pick up ILS too...

Click to expand...

Brantel...would love to hear more..can we open a new thread on this?

Hi Ryan...

The Garmin 300 XL does NOT 'pick up' either a VOR nor an ADF site. It uses coordinates to simulate their position. You cannot select a VOR radial with the 300XL either, as you can with the OBS knob on a VOR control head.

Your FAA buddy is somewhat mistaken and I'd check with a more knowledgable CFI-I before I'd spend money on your described setup, especially if IFR training and licensing is your end goal.

Best,

T

Note: Any reference to WAAS unit below is not refering to a WAAS enabled portable...

Like Pierre said, there are some gotcha's when you are going to use a GPS for sole means of navigation. There are a ton of rules around this. There are also rules around subing GPS for navaids such as ADF and DME. There are approaches like NDB approaches that do not have a GPS overlay or a standalone GPS approach where you cannot use the GPS.

The panel mount WAAS units are allowed more freedom than the non WAAS units. The 300XL is not a WAAS unit. Non WAAS units must have the equipment required for shooting the approach on which the GPS overlay is built. WAAS units do not. Also if you are required to file an alternate and you have a NON WAAS GPS, you must file to an alternate that has a non GPS approach and you must have equipment required other than GPS to shoot that approach.

I was looking at the AIM last night and there are many many pages dedicated to this subject. It is not cut and dry simple.

Pierre is correct. You stated that the GPS will Pick Up VOR and ADF's....Nope...They are only just another waypoint in the database. You can however use the OBS/Hold mode built into most GPS's to emulate a VOR and it's radials by rotating and setting the course to it while in OBS/hold mode. Same goes for ADF or any other waypoint, you can set the course to emulate a certain bearing/course to the beacon.

miyu1975 said:

Brantel...would love to hear more..can we open a new thread on this?

Click to expand...

I have to ask you guys, what is your end goal?

Are you just going to train to get an IFR ticket? Do you plan to fly your plane IFR for real?

IFR is a situation of risks that have to be considered and provided for depending on the plane and the skill of the pilot. I have flown IFR for decades without an ADF, removed it from my plane in the 80's and got a Loran and a stormscope to replace the two panel spots, it was a great upgrade then. You, the pilot, judge the risks and you decide how you want to risk you, and your passenger's lives. Weather and situations are always changing, for me, at least two independent sources of navigation are essential.

If the FAA finally can figure out where they want the air traffic system to go, we will probably see VOR equipment disappear. Today I would not fly IFR for real without at least two nav/coms, one with glideslope, or a WAAS gps and one nav with glideslope and a com in either one. Optional but nice would be a second com and a portable gps, hopefully with XM weather. We haven't even talked about attitude displays, at least two independent ones of them also.

When I fly IFR, my wife prefers I return home and without soiled underwear.

Tim,
I don't have an opinion about the Odyssey for IFR but have flown some IFR in the RV6 I finished in 1999 and can offer a couple of suggestions.

By way of background, I did my IFR training in the 1980's in a Cherokee 140 I owned then. I equipped the RV6 like the Cherokee - KX155 with ILS, a second nav/com and added a GX55 upgraded to be legal for enroute IFR (with additional indicator for annunciators, etc.). After flying for a couple of years replaced the NavAid auto pilot with a TruTrak.

My suggestions:
1. If you are like me and plan to fly almost exclusively your airplane, I recommend adding the IFR equipment to your airplane and getting the training in your airplane. It is not as easy as a Cherokee, but doable, in my opinion.

2. Do the "VOR thing" - provide VOR capability. Maybe you can find in the regs the ability to do just GPS (I don't know about that) but even so, the VOR system is a great backup. Although I have the ability to go direct, I still use the airways for the practice it gives me in using the VORs so the ability is there if I need it. Along that line, do Garmin, not the KX155. As someone pointed out above, the KX155 has no digital output. (Seems to me that someone should be able to make a gadget to enable that, but I have not heard of one.)

3. Do an autopilot from the beginning. It is not needed for training but is good to work it into your routines. When you start using the airplane to go somewhere in the clouds I think you will want an autopilot in an RV.

Good luck with it. The instrument ticket opens up some great vistas in RV flying!

Keith W.