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RV-12 N412RV Has Been Rolled Out To The Public.

Doug,

We appreciate that you pass along information on the RV-12 so quickly, there's so much anticipation on this model.
 
Maybe it is just the camera perspective...but it looks like it is bigger than the -9A. (Need to go back and read the specs...)

Nice color!

EDIT: RV-12 (912VA) Span 26'8", Wing area 127sqft , Length 19'11". RV-9 Span 28', Wing area 124 sqft, Length 20'5". VERY close in size.
 
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How exciting! It won't be long now! Maybe taking orders at SnF? Better start rounding a Rotax 912S, good used ones are gonna get scarce.
 
Newbie_Doo said:
EDIT: RV-12 (912VA) Span 26'8", Wing area 127sqft , Length 19'11". RV-9 Span 28', Wing area 124 sqft, Length 20'5". VERY close in size.
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Interesting. The wing loading on the -12 will be very light at 10.4 lb/sf at MGTW, compared to the -9 at 14.5 (1800 lb MGTW). I would expect the -12 to be a little tender in gusty winds and bumps with the light wing loading.

TODR
 
the_other_dougreeves said:
Interesting. The wing loading on the -12 will be very light at 10.4 lb/sf at MGTW, compared to the -9 at 14.5 (1800 lb MGTW). I would expect the -12 to be a little tender in gusty winds and bumps with the light wing loading.

TODR
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Wing loading will be close to the Cessna 152, which is 10.5 lb/sf. I am guessing that the RV-12 will be a lot more fun to fly.

Jim
 
Autopilot?

The close-up pic on the Vans website of the fuse panel shows both a fuse location and a switch for an autopilot. Where would the servo be located, or how does this connect up, with a removeable wing?

Curious...Keith
 
NACA 230

n5lp said:
I was told by a knowledgeable person that the change to the wing was to add a bit of chord. They seem very confident that that will do the job.
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Darned if I can find it now, but early in the RV-12 "new wing" announcements I read that the NACA 230 series airfoil would be used: same airfoil as the -4,-6, -7, and -8. Van's has lots of experience with the NACA 230 at various weights; perhaps this is the reason for their confidence.

Chase Snodgrass
Presidio, TX
http://flybigbend.com
 
Lights and Auto Pilot?

OK, N412RV has a switch for Navigation and Strobe lights, a switch for Landing light (with pulse and steady settings), and a switch for Autopilot:

switch_fuse.jpg


Looking at the couple poor exterior shots on Van's site, I don't see any lights... Didn't think these would be part of a KISS LSA design from Van. Anyone have info?

--Bill
 
My Guess....

My guess would be that they plan to have these items on the demo since they will be flying it around the country, like to Oshkosh.
 
Is it possible to have "optional" items in a S-LSA and E-LSA, so Van's could certify the S-LSA with with lights and autopilot, but the builder of an E-LSA could opt for either/both/none?

--Bill
 
bigbill25 said:
OK, N412RV has a switch for Navigation and Strobe lights, a switch for Landing light (with pulse and steady settings), and a switch for Autopilot:...

Looking at the couple poor exterior shots on Van's site, I don't see any lights... Didn't think these would be part of a KISS LSA design from Van. Anyone have info?

--Bill
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Since there are no fuses in those holders, I suspect that they are thinking ahead.

TODR
 
Optical illusion?

(looking at pics on Vans site) is it me or does the new RV-12 Vertical stab/rudder have more of a slant on top than the prototype? It also looks shorter to me..

As for the autopilot servo, I'd hazard a guess and say its probably mounted to the torque tubes inside the fuselage behind/under the seats to keep the wing removal as simple as possible.

Good questions to ask when you visit them at SnF..
 
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WilburD2 said:
(looking at pics on Vans site) is it me or does the new RV-12 Vertical stab/rudder have more of a slant on top than the prototype? It also looks shorter to me..
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I see what you mean, but the camera taking those pictures seems to be of pretty low quality. I think barrel distortion is causing most of the extra slant...

--Bill
 
Another little detail..

The button next to the key is labeled "spar pins hold to override."
Sound like they have a microswitch on the pins that wont allow an engine start without them properly installed. Wonder if that will be standard..
 
bigbill25 said:
Is it possible to have "optional" items in a S-LSA and E-LSA, so Van's could certify the S-LSA with with lights and autopilot, but the builder of an E-LSA could opt for either/both/none?

--Bill
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Yes! (Words added for stupid restriction.)
 
Center console

Does anybody know the purpose of the large center console in the RV-12? That certainly is different than the other RVs. I'm impressed with the low empty weight--only 738 pounds!
 
It's not spineless...

rv9builder said:
Does anybody know the purpose of the large center console in the RV-12? That certainly is different than the other RVs. I'm impressed with the low empty weight--only 738 pounds!
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It looks to me like that is the main structural component forward of the wing. Would that be called a spine? Remember the zig-zag firewall and note the lack of bracing on the lower corners of the firewall as with other RV's.
 
bigbill25 said:
Is it possible to have "optional" items in a S-LSA and E-LSA, so Van's could certify the S-LSA with with lights and autopilot, but the builder of an E-LSA could opt for either/both/none?

--Bill
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Bill,

With the FAA not certifying kits for the 51% rule at this time.

If you build your -12 and change anything, including adding lights, you run the risk of the FAA and them turning you down. With Experimentals, if that happens you can't do anything but possibly sell it overseas.

It is going to be interesting to see how the FAA deals with these kits, should someone change their's from the factory version.

As for lights in the wings, Van left them off because the wings are removable and you would have to deal with the wiring disconnect issue. Besides, it adds weight to his prototype, which hurts marketing, and doesn't help performance.
 
I don't get all the fuss. If you want to build one of these from say a standard kit, just register it as experimental/amateur-built and you can do whatever you want. E-LSA just let's you get a much more completed kit, right? If you're going to customize the airplane and have maximum flexibility, just build a 'slow-build' and be done with it. From what I can see, there is absolutely no downside to registering an RV-12 as experimental/amateur-built.

Am I not understanding some issue here?
 
Jamie said:
Am I not understanding some issue here?
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Jamie,

Apparently Van's did such a good job with the -12 kit there is some concern if this kit will or will not meet the 51% rule.

If the kits are bought and licensed as an S-LSA, then they have to match the specs of the prototype exactly AND Van's can build greater than 51%.

However, if the kit doesn't meet the 51% rule, and at this point, the FAA isn't saying if it does or not, then a builder MIGHT have an issue licensing it.

Check with Van's for the details.
 
RV-12 and 51% rule

N941WR:

You are correct and in fact, this is specifically referenced in the 51% rule change article in the most recent RVator where they discuss potential implications to the RV-12 kit and the rationale for seeking S-LSA status more quickly than they might have done otherwise. In fact, I suspect this is one of the reasons the RV-12 kit prototype has been so delayed. I think Van saw this coming and went the extra mile to make certain it would meet all of the ASTM standards prior to finalizing it.

With regards to the whole issue of lights and autopilot- this is very interesting. This is the prototype that will undergo S-LSA certification and per the rules, each E-LSA must be identical unless a deviation is approved by the original manufacturer. While they are not currently installed, they certainly made provisions for them. Thus, it would seem that lights and autopilot would at least be an option (per Mel's earlier post, they could allow for options if they were originally approved as part of the S-LSA certification). I certainly hope both are options.
 
N941WR said:
Bill,

With the FAA not certifying kits for the 51% rule at this time.
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Van's can always make the kit under the e-LSA standard, which does not require adherence to the 51% rule, but limits changes from the Van's approved design. No idea if Van's will do this, but that's a possibility.

To our DARs: Is there any reason that Van's can't offer the -12 both as a e-LSA or ex-AB, i.e., two different kits for the same plane?

TODR
 
E-LSA MODS

As I understand it, if you build as E-LSA ( same as the factory S-LSA version ), then have it inspected as an E-LSA, then afterward you can make changes or mods. You will need the basic inspection course completed. If this is wrong, Mel, please jump in.

John Bender
 
This is true except...

you don't need the repairman certificate except for the annual condition inspection.
 
Further thoughts

For those above, concerned about 'other' options, you can do them later. ( after the inspection ). You may not want to spend more $ to remove something you just put on, but if you want to add lights etc., you can do that later. I hope that correctly answers concerns of those wanting more than the basic offerings by the E-LSA build.

John Bender
 
BUT Remember:

You can't change anything that will cause it to not meet LSA parameters. i.e. gross weight, max continuous speed, clean stall speed, etc.
 
Mel said:
You can't change anything that will cause it to not meet LSA parameters. i.e. gross weight, max continuous speed, clean stall speed, etc.
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How is that enforced? Further, how would one go about proving that a certain mod did or did not affect those parameters?
 
THANKS MEL

My plan ( as of today that is ) is to build as though it will meet 51% OK. If I build it as an E-LSA, I can decide when it is time for inspection. ( assuming I have done all or most the work myself ). If the kit is approved, go the 51% route, if not, E-LSA it is.

There seems to be an general opinion that E-LSA will hurt the value. I can't make that judgement yet. I would think it would be easier to sell as an E-LSA when that time might come. I would like to hear anyones opinion on why E-AB would make it worth more.

John Bender
 
Rabidsnipe said:
How is that enforced? Further, how would one go about proving that a certain mod did or did not affect those parameters?
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Just like anything FAA questions you on. It's up to you to show that you are in compliance. If they question, you must show to their satisfaction.
 
JBPILOT said:
There seems to be an general opinion that E-LSA will hurt the value. I can't make that judgement yet. I would think it would be easier to sell as an E-LSA when that time might come. I would like to hear anyones opinion on why E-AB would make it worth more.
John Bender
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Biggest advantages for E-LSA is that a later purchaser can go to class and get the repairman certificate allowing him/her to do the annual condition inspection. The flight test period is 5 hours. Advantage for amateur-built is the builder does not have to go to the class to get the certificate.
 
Value

Again, I don't see that E-AB adds any real value. E-AB would let you go outside the LSA perameters I guess, as a licensed pilot. ( thinking of maybe more speed ). As long as it meets LSA spec's when sold, it would not have an effect on value as I am looking at it.

John Bender
 
JBPILOT said:
Again, I don't see that E-AB adds any real value. E-AB would let you go outside the LSA perameters I guess, as a licensed pilot. ( thinking of maybe more speed ). As long as it meets LSA spec's when sold, it would not have an effect on value as I am looking at it.
John Bender
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Remember, if the aircraft at any time does not meet LSA parameters, it cannot be brought back into LSA ever.
 
Good Job Van's Team!

Wow... leave town for the week... and look at who shows up! :D I think she looks better in red than yellow! The panel looks basic, but very clean. I'm glad to see the lights and autopilot options. I had exchanged emails previously with Tom suggesting that they consider landing lights/wig-wags - even for a S-LSA. It is my belief that these are a daytime safety feature. VERY pleased to see those switches show up on this new bird.

I'm starting to think that I really have no need/desire to modify it from an E-LSA... and may just go that route. After reading some of the other comments, it struck me that it may actually add value and be a selling point (when/if I decide to move up). Keep the craft usable by LSA pilots... PLUS they can go to a class and maintain/repair it - even though they didn't build it.

If Van's gets it S-LSA approved with wheel pants, that'll be the final item I'm hoping for. Even if it adds a couple knots of speed, they can twist the prop a bit to slow it down if needed... adding a bit more climb oomph to the package.

DJ
 
MEL

I was thinking about the wheel pants issue previously posted. Its up to the builder to make sure the top speed is correct for E-LSA. I believe the prop will be ground ajustable, so pitch it as required to stay within E-LSA specs and it should be OK. Correct ?

John Bender
 
JBPILOT said:
I was thinking about the wheel pants issue previously posted. Its up to the builder to make sure the top speed is correct for E-LSA. I believe the prop will be ground ajustable, so pitch it as required to stay within E-LSA specs and it should be OK. Correct ?

John Bender
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I believe you are correct. However, I don't believe that you can add Pants to an E-LSA if Van's didn't get the S-LSA approved with that feature, at least as an option. Are we correct Mel?

DJ
 
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