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You're probably not going to believe this.

D

DuhhDave

I'm New Here
Hello Folks and Happy New Year.
I'm new to the forum but have been lurking a while. I'm in the "Serious Contemplation" phase of building a RV-12 and I have a question.

I'm kinda "Old School" and like to keep things as simple as possible. I'm strictly a VFR Daytime pilot and fly for fun. I'm happy below 1000' agl. Anything higher and I get a nose bleed (JK). I just like to go up and look down. With that said, I'll get to the point.

In your colaborative, expert opinions would it be possible and could it be done to install "Steam Guage" flight instruments and Analog/mechanical/electrical engine instruments in a RV-12?

(Yes, I can hear the crowd GASP in astonished disbelief!)

I realize some may think I'm nuts (and sometimes I am) but as I said, I'm "Old School". Keep it simple....less to go wrong type. I have flown behind a glass panel a time or two and didnt care for it. I realize it takes time to get used to. I find I can scan, interpret and gather the information instantly with steam gauges as compared to having to "Search" for what I want to know on a glass readout. I also find I tend to "Interpolate" in my mind what a glass panel tells me as to a steam gauge instrument would convey the information...If you can understand my meaning.

I have other questions also but they can wait. I've probably "Boggled" your minds enough for now.

Any thoughts or comments would be very much appreciated...pro or con.
I'am a "Big Boy"...I can take it.

I have been a "Vans Fan" for many years and have been waiting for this airplane for a long time as well. Glad it's finally here.

Thank you all, and again Happy New Year.
Dave
 
Sure...you could go AmBuilt instead of ELSA and put whatever you want into it. In fact Van himself had his inspected AmBuilt. Your problem will be its kind of an integrated airplane. Many of the systems are tied into the avionics set-up as is. It would take some work to decipher the wiring harness' and re-configure. Your trim alone would be an adventure.
 
Welcome to VAF

Like Pete said, built it anyway you want. IMHO, it would not take but a few hours and you would have the same comfort level with the EFIS as you do with steam gages, and then you would not have a one of a kind plane that may be more difficult to sell.

There are days I go flying in the -12 and after 2-3 hours have to pull up to 1000' agl to get into the pattern to land and that is the highest I've been all day.
 
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Re: Steam gauges

Like you, I'm much more comfortable with analog gauges than a glass panel. The guy who's helping me build 143WM finds it difficult to see the glass panel from the right seat. My plan is to complete the airframe as an E-LSA and then after certification to replace the "chart compartment" ( the interior option has lots of map pockets) with a solid panel with small-diameter airspeed, altimiter, and turn/bank indicators. This should provide a backup system in case of electrical failure or dead Dynon as well as easy-to read copilot gauges without adding a lot of weight.

Wayne
 
Steam Gauges etc.

There is a common fear of glass panels; but it really is probably a greater fear of technology. If you really want to use steam guages there is no reason not too...that's what experimental AB is all about. I think if you really want to do that though you need to look at the New Dynon with pricing in the EMS package that is as inexpensive as steam guages... and just fine in a bright screen mode. The most impressive thing about the DYNON is the flexibility it offers...and I'm willing to bet that it is lighter weight and easier to use in time than steam guages.

Jay Sluiter
Albany, OR
 
Everything pretty much covered already but I will add...

When you first began learning to fly you probably were not fast at scanning the gauges and interpreting the info. You had to teach your brain. Same goes for an EFIS display of the same information. It took me a while to adapt. Now I switch back and forth from airplanes with EFIS and ones with steam gauges. I don't have any trouble.

If you did choose to build to certify amateur built it will take longer. Much longer than you would expect.
Something else to consider.
 
Dave,

Welcome to the VAF forum.

My VFR RV-9 is set up almost identical to the RV-12, only I included a round airspeed and altimeter because I always thought of myself as a steam gauge kind of guy.

When I started designing my panel around steam gauges I found out very quickly that the Dynon screen is lighter, cheaper, and probably more reliable. If I were building today, I would not install those two round gauges.

I suggest you build it per E-LSA rules and fly it that way for forty or fifty hours. Then change it if you still want the old school stuff.

Here?s a thought, why not down load the D180 manual from the Dynon site and get an idea of all the functionality that unit contains. Don?t worry about ?overload? as you can turn off the stuff you don?t want.
 
I am building on a budget. I am using everything I took out of the last plane I built. Steam gauges are not always cheaper, BUT....here is what I am using.
standard 3" airspeed ($120), altimeter ($198), Vario ($125), SL-40 Comm ($1300), Lowrance 2000C ($599), Car stereo w/cd player ($110), Intercom ($145), Reconditioned GTX-320 transponder ($975), used encoder ($100), switches/breakers/wiring/connectors ($400), and finallly a grand rapids EIS with probes and wiring harness and fuel flow ($1200). $5272.00 what costs almost $15,000 for the ELSA stuff. Don't kid yourself though, by doing this I added probably 200 hours of build time to the plane, I have more time than money....
 
Stand Alone Gauges vs. TV

You can probably convince yourself that the glass panel of today will never fail taking out everything contained therein but that would be wrong. Likewise, you might think that once you have the glass panels functioning properly that there will always be reliable product support but that will be wrong even if the manufacturer survives until you have a failure. As for value at resale, consider the appeal of an instrument panel with ~ direct drive stand alone instruments vs. and instrument panel with blank plates that were obsolete when installed lo-o-o-o-ng before the first flight and depend on the original manufacturer for support (not long ago I read in this forum that a Tru Trac representative asked a customer that called with a problem "are you still flying with Pictorial Pilot and Altrac" - it is a developing industry attitude). In the glass panels you have no visibility into how the information displayed is processed from the source and in many cases the manufacturer is prone to forget "exactly" how it is done on each unit produced over time and often the knowledge and understanding are limited to a single mortal individual. Electronic component, physical assembly and software (especially software) configuration control are difficult in a garage industry with international suppliers and the cost of configuration control and support inventory of evolving configurations is prohibitive. With software you not only have to be concerned with the operational software but the source code, the build environment & process, the installation environment & process, library controls, testing and the right personnel to maintain the system to support your software in an ever changing product situation. As long as there are thousands of production certified airplanes with stand alone ~direct drive instruments you can expect your "Steam Gauges" to be properly supported and if one fails the rest are independent of that failure. I understand your preference and there is a lot more justification for it than what I have touched on.

Bob Axsom
 
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Stand Alone gauges vs. TV

Bob Axsom that was a outstanding post! :) Your helping me rethink my choices.
Started to sell part of my steam but it may have been a mistake.:eek:
 
Bob Axsom said:
As for value at resale, consider the appeal of an instrument panel with ~ direct drive stand alone instruments vs. and instrument panel with blank plates that were obsolete when installed lo-o-o-o-ng before the first flight and depend on the original manufacturer for support (not long ago I read in this forum that a Tru Trac representative asked a customer that called with a problem "are you still flying with Pictorial Pilot and Altrac" - it is a developing industry attitude). Bob Axsom
Click to expand...

Bob, what do you mean by this sentence? Could you explain these terms?
 
BigJohn said:
Bob, what do you mean by this sentence? Could you explain these terms?
Click to expand...

Hi John,

I think he is saying that trying to sell an aircraft with any glass system that is not working and not supported by the manufacture is hard to do. He also is correct when he said that the glass panels we buy today are like home computers in that by the time they are five years old you may have real trouble getting them fixed or updated so that they work. He said that with steam gages you can always replace the one that is not working and many of us are still using 60 year old instruments that work just fine.

If you want to hear some real sad stories ask the good people who purchased "Blue Mountain" systems; some work, some do not and there is little or no support.

Have a good day.

Best regards,
Vern
 
I'll Try

BigJohn said:
Bob, what do you mean by this sentence? Could you explain these terms?
Click to expand...

Let me see if I can. I meant that when you buy a glass panel instrument it is usually part of your panel development phase where you figure out what you want and that will fit in the space available. Then you decide whether the panel is going to be riveted in as the drawings show for my RV-6A or it is going to be removable, as I decided to make mine, and add provisions for screws and platenuts. Then you layout the panel to make sure everything will fit in a logical position, without interferance, without unnecessarily weakening the panel and providing support for the long radios, etc. Around this time you buy everything that is going into your panel and make sure there are no surprises - this is the point that you drive your stake in the obsolesence trail. Then you start the mechanical assembly of the panel including all of the cutting of metal in the panel blank. Once everything is assembled so that all of the wire termination points are stabilized the next task is wiring. First you need to draw up a schematic/wiring diagram that accounts for every wire that your panel requires. You need the installation manuals or owners manuals that show the "pin outs" and recommended wire types and gages to do this - you have to be careful here because the manufacturers do not use the same identification or terminology for all signals. Then you have spend hundreds of dollars for very specialized crimpers to crimp connector pins on the wires and commence wiring the panel. Next you have to install the panel in the airplane and connect all of the plumbing and wiring with other parts of the airplane than the instrument panel itself. Then you finish the airplane. All this time the manufacturers of the glass panel instruments are struggling for survival and developing newer designs. If they survive they are focused on the "latest and greatest" and the more time passes the less interested they are in the configuration you bought. If they do not survive you have orphaned instruments that by implication were not good enough to survive in the glass panel world. In either case there is a growing reluctance by buyers to want to get involved with instruments that were not good enough to be the current industry leaders and support is questionable. The tried and true "steam gauges" are not black magic and do not suffer the same image vulnerability and support problems with time as the glass panel instruments in the potential buyer's eyes.

I hope that helps.

Bob Axsom
 
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Change

I think Bob's thoughts could be extended into the entire homebuilt category. Sonex is fixing to fly a jet! Van's is a very progressive outfit and the 12 will be history before we know it. I think you have to decide your own mission and like Bob says, do your homework...then get to work. The beauty of homebuilding is you can really do things you never thought possible if you plan for it.
 
Thank You all for your input

I do appreciate those reply's and have more info to consider. I'am still leaning toward steam gauges. I have no intention of ever selling the airplane and it will most likely go to my daughter when I'am done with it...so thats not really a factor.

I guess that is the beauty of E/LSA or E/AB...you have some latitude to build the airplane to suit yourself.

Now...if I could just hang a Cont 0-200 on the front...but then, that may be asking a little much. :)

Thanks guy's for all the info. It is VERY MUCH appreciated.

Dave
 
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