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Wing spar flange problem...tell me I'm not crazy!

J

jwyatt

Well Known Member
So there I was, test-fitting ribs to the wing spar, fat dumb & happy. Until I realized that they're fitting nicely...upside down!

I think my spars may have some serious trouble, but I haven't found enough similar photos online to be sure yet. Rather than post all my pictures here, I've put a photo-tour of sorts on my build log. If you know the 9 wing, could you take a look and tell me if I've missed something obvious before I contact Van's?

Link to the post on my builder's log

Many thanks...
 
I've never worked on a -9 - but are you sure that you are fitting RH parts to RH parts?


Jim Sharkey
 
Jim --
Yep, I verified that the ribs were the correct ones called out on the plans, L vs. R, as there is a mix of each in each wing.

Andy --
It's similar, except worse. The problem Greg described on the thread you linked seemed to be that his flange was underbent. He was able to seat the ribs to the spar web, but one of the flanges had a gap. I'm not even able to get the ribs to match up with the spar, as the angles of the spar flanges prevent the forward flange of the rib from ever being parallel with the spar web. (See the picture here.)

Trying to insert the rib with the forward flange of the rib parallel to the spar web (as it would have to be when riveted), the angles don't match up, and to force it would end up bending the rib and scratching the spar.

I did have a second person read the plans and check the rib numbers I was trying to fit, as well, so I wouldn't embarass myself with a wrong-parts-in-wrong-place mistake.
 
Joshua - I went out and looked at my -9A wings and your build site - there clearly is a problem. Your orientations look correct, but the flanges are bent wrong (like they were put in wrong when drilled and riveted to the bars - my guess is that the web was bent first to create the flange, then the bars were added in a jig where everything was drilled, then riveted. It appears they were put in the jig upside down). Talk to Van's and let us know. I'm not sure I would accept a 2X4 bend it back scenario as per the link - your flanges are substantially off.

jwyatt said:
Jim --
Yep, I verified that the ribs were the correct ones called out on the plans, L vs. R, as there is a mix of each in each wing.

Andy --
It's similar, except worse. The problem Greg described on the thread you linked seemed to be that his flange was underbent. He was able to seat the ribs to the spar web, but one of the flanges had a gap. I'm not even able to get the ribs to match up with the spar, as the angles of the spar flanges prevent the forward flange of the rib from ever being parallel with the spar web. (See the picture here.)

Trying to insert the rib with the forward flange of the rib parallel to the spar web (as it would have to be when riveted), the angles don't match up, and to force it would end up bending the rib and scratching the spar.

I did have a second person read the plans and check the rib numbers I was trying to fit, as well, so I wouldn't embarass myself with a wrong-parts-in-wrong-place mistake.
Click to expand...
 
Carl, thanks for checking. I'm sending the info I have to Van's and will report back when I know more... I'm inclined to agree with you re: the suitability of the 2x4 fix; it seems the potential would be high to create a bigger mess.

cnpeters said:
Joshua - I went out and looked at my -9A wings and your build site - there clearly is a problem. Your orientations look correct, but the flanges are bent wrong (like they were put in wrong when drilled and riveted to the bars - my guess is that the web was bent first to create the flange, then the bars were added in a jig where everything was drilled, then riveted. It appears they were put in the jig upside down). Talk to Van's and let us know. I'm not sure I would accept a 2X4 bend it back scenario as per the link - your flanges are substantially off.
Click to expand...
 
Spar Flanges

No doubt about it, the flanges are wrong. The orientation of the spars sitting on the bench is correct because of the location of the access plate platenuts. I'll bet Vans will replace them but you may need to send them your center section bulkheads back so they can match drill the new spars. Although, with CNC it may not be a problem.

Good Luck.
 
You are NOT crazy

It is definitely a case of the underbent spar problem. There are three other cases that I know of; 'Airguy', Terry Elgood (about whose experience there is an article in the latest RVator) and myself.

In my case, I decided that I did not want to take the risk of implementing the fix recommended by Vans. I felt that, even if the flanges looked okay after the fix, the effect might be visible in the finished wings. If that happened, I would be at the loss of at least one main wing structure (not flaps, ailerons, tanks or wing tips, obviously) plus all the time taken to build it.

Sure I could just put up with it, like I will have to put up with all the other little imperfections that I have caused myself. But it would be the one imperfection caused by sub-standard parts that would bug me most.

Even though I am on the other side of the globe from Aurora (in Dublin, Ireland) Vans shipped new spars to me and by tomorrow evening, I will be back to the stage I had reached when I discovered the problem.

Good point about the centre section by the way. However, Vans only replaced the spars and they assure me that you can now mix and match spars and centre sections from different sets, even though the set number is still engraved on all parts. Nonetheless, I will be doing a test assembly of the new spars and the original centre section before I build the centre section into my fuse

It all comes down to how you feel about the repair. If you are confident you can do it (I was) and you don't mind if it turns out that there are a few small waves or wrinkles visible in the top surface of your wing, then go ahead. However, if like me, you don't want to raise the stakes and effectively accept responsibility for making good a manufacturing error, then I am certain from my own experience that Vans will stand by you and make it right.
 
In yesterdays mail I received what amounts to a recall notice on 9/9A wing spars from Vans. In this letter they admit that on wings shipped between Jan 1st of 2008 and August 1st of 2008, slowbuild wing spars (QB wings are not affected) MAY have been bent incorrectly. From their description it sounds like a worker (or multiples) installed the spars wrong (end for end) on the flange bender, resulting in the angles being reversed top-for-bottom (neither is supposed to be 90 degrees).

They included a nice little diagram showing the correct angles and distances, and sure enough mine are wrong. I was willing to accept a single instance of mis-bent spars, which is what I thought I had (see my earlier thread on this), but after pulling down my other spar and seeing that it is the same (incorrect) and having Vans acknowledge it, I think I will press to have my spars replaced. At this point it will be very easy to do so (drill out the rib rivets, that's all), and I'm becoming increasingly concerned about how the wing skin surface is going to look with the mis-bent flanges causing distortion in the skin.

I must say though - despite this being a rather unhappy occurrence at an inopportune time, I am pleased to see that Vans has admitted their error and appears to be willing to do something about it. The letter does not say what they will do to fix the problem, it only says to contact Vans - so we shall see how it plays out. I know of two other individuals who have had new spars shipped to them by Vans to replace the bad ones, so I am hopeful that Vans will continue to demonstrate their committment to the customer by standing up and doing the right thing for all those affected. I don't even mind having a REPAIRED, correctly rebent spar - so long as it was done correctly by the manufacturer and the piece is still structurally sound.
 
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Upside down wings...

*GASP*
I received my "Dear Dave" letter on Thursday, and got to the airport early this morning. Sure enough, my wings appear to be upside down too. *sigh*

I'm not far along (just the nut plates) but I wonder what the "fix" will be?
Will I send the spars to Vans and they will re-bend? Can you do that? I live near Los Angeles, and wonder if Vans might know where a 30' brake might be around here? I'm SURE there must be one.

I took pictures and will call Van's on Monday.

*sigh*

Dkb
 
I got a reply from Vans on Wednesday to my email, which I sent Monday of last week, concerning the letter. They said that they would exchange the spars (didn't say replaced/repaired, just "exchange") at no charge, if I wanted to do that. Shipping cost was not mentioned. The other option was to try to bend the spars yourself into correct orientation.

I initially bent mine into a close approximation of where they should be, but on going back and measuring carefully, I'm still a little off in a few spots. I'm thinking that I'm comfortable enough with the bending process and my initial results that I'm going to go ahead and re-address my right spar (the one I already worked on) and then work on the left spar. If I don't get acceptable results I'll send them back to Vans.

Tips for those that want to try to bend the spars themselves:
1 - use a piece of oak or other hard wood, not soft pine 2x4. Seasoned mesquite would be excellent. You will need some good strength in the wood, and some leverage. Cut the slot width as close to actual metal width as possible (.063 flange). I made my initial cut with a band saw and then opened it up a bit more using sand paper till it was a snug fit.
2 - Put a block of wood on the web of the spar and clamp it with C-Clamps to prevent bending the web.
3 - Round the corners on your oak bending stick so you don't interfere with the radius of the web/flange bend, and you can seat the stick all the way down onto the web. This way you know all the bend is being made in the web/flange radius, and not in the legth of the flange itself, or in the web.
4 - Bend (and check) the angle about every inch (or even less) along the length of the spar.
5 - Don't try to bend it all at once - approach the total bend a little at a time and measure the results, you'll be surprised how much spring-back the flange has.
 
Spar bending...

:( My spars are incorrect, and I called Van's and they will take care of the problem. They ship first, and it will be one to two months for them to ship new spars, and I ship back in the same box. I just have plate nuts installed, so I'll need new as well.

I called a couple of local large machine shops to see if they could fix them, but the MINIMUM setup fee for the 12 foot brake is $475.00 (I didn't even ASK if that was one or two)

Van's has been VERY helpful and forthright with this problem, and I want to make it as easy as possible for them, but I told my wife this is THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE PLANE and she's a bit nervous.

Anyone else self-bend? :confused:

Dkb
 
I chickened out...

Yup, I folded. Chickened out. Took my marbles and went home. :(

After looking at my spars some more, fabricating a couple of tools to try to bend them more accurately, and having my wife question my good judgement umpteen times as to whether or not I *REALLY* wanted to bet my life on that spar, and then sleeping on that for a couple nights, I called it off and sent the email to Vans telling them I want to exchange the spars. A month or two delay on the wings won't kill me - but a bad spar might.

I don't have the metallurgical knowledge to know for absolute certain that I did it right, or that what I did was not going to have some effect on the ultimate load or fatigue life of the spar, or that the spiderweb cracking of the anodize coating was not going to contribute to corrosion later. On top of that there is the basic business/consumer aspect, whereby I paid for a dimensionally accurate set of spars, and I should receive them in that condition.

Oh well - at least I've got the fuel tank to keep me occupied for a few weeks, and my house remodel will make a little more progress for the rest of the time spent waiting.

I'll keep the group here updated on events with Vans...
 
That's really a bummer. There is still lots of work to do though. Ribs can be straightened, deburred and primed. Holes for electrical conduit and aoa lines can be drilled. Aileron brackets can be assembled. I believe the tanks could at least be done up to the point prior to attaching the baffles.

I must have just dodged the bullet, as my wings were shipped mid-december.
 
Got a reply from Vans on the email, and talked to them on the phone as well. The new spars have already been ordered and will be shipped to me in a reusable crate, and I'll return my incorrect spars in that same crate back to Vans on their nickel. My new spars are expected to be delivered in 4-8 weeks. They are even supplying all the nutplates to replace the ones I've already put on the spar.

All in all, I'm pleased with the way Vans handled this little faux pas. They identified the problem, admitted it, publicized it, and made it right. What more could a consumer ask for?
 
Van's confirmed by email today that my replacement spars, as well, have been ordered. I was told 1-3 months, so it's on to flaps & ailerons for me. I'm not thrilled about the delay, but like Lionclaw said, there's plenty of work to pass the time. Van's did advise to wait on the leading edges and tanks, though.

Replacement nutplates would be nice...I was figuring I'd have to drill them off the bad spars. All in all, I'm happy with the way this is being handled.
 
Guess I dodged the bullet!

I just checked my spars and they are perfect. Glad Van's found out about this before mine shipped. Now just gotta finish the inventory and get to work.
Now that's a big bag of hardware:)
 
Replacement Spars...

I also will have Van's ship new spars. I had a local engineer come over to the hanger and have a look. He built a 6 a bit ago, and actually had a tool for bending. after he had a look tho, he suggested just getting new spars. If you do not bend PERFECTLY, the skins will be wavy. Not unsafe, but looks like S#$@%!

1 to 3 months wait, but on to flaps and ailerons in the mean time.

Thanx for Help!

Dkb
 
I was out of town for the long weekend, and upon my return I found a letter waiting for me from Vans saying that my replacement spars HAD ALREADY SHIPPED on 8-29 - only 8 calendar days after I requested them, and after I had been quoted 4-8 weeks.

Way cool!
 
New Spars

Hi guys!

I was wondering if you had to get new, matched drilled, center section bulkheads (F-904 A & B) as well?
 
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Those were not listed on the invoice I received from Vans, so I would say that means no.
 
Back in the saddle again!

My new spars arrived today - time to go make noise in the shop again!:cool:
 
Started punching holes already this evening, countersunk the right spar for the tank attach nutplates. Better get cranking!
 
WING SPAR FLANGE

BOTH OF OUR RV-9A MAIN WING SPAR FLANGE ARE WITH THE BEND ANGLE INCORRECT (UPPER AND BOTTON FLANGES). JUST TO ADD MY CASE TO THE OTHER THREE. UNTIL NOW NO ANSWER FROM VANS TECHNICAL SUPPORT. I THINK I WILL TRY TO FIT IT MYSELF.
 
Vans will replace them for free, including shipping, if you notify them. They will even send you more nutplates for the ones you've put into the spar if you've done that already.

I wonder if Vans is taking the misbent spars and putting them back in the jig for correct bending, then sending those spars to the QB factory for use there? Most of them will have holes drilled by the experimental builder, so they can't be resold as slowbuild wing kits anymore...
 
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