Wing doubler problems anyone?

[Gandalf]

Well my wing is starting to take shape which is really neat. I have attached the main ribs and rear spar and now I am starting to put on the nose ribs. Having heard about some troubles with the wing doubler, I tried a dry fit before I riveted the nose ribs. So I clecoed the inboard nose ribs and forward stub spar and to my surprise the aft row of holes on the wing doubler does not line up with the row of holes on the spar! All of the other holes do line up on the ribs. I just don't see how this is going to line up without some major pressure. Also the third inner nose rib seems compressed. Has anyone else had issues with this?

OK. I did a bit of experimenting and here is what I found. I must be making some mistake because if I clecoe the inboard nose ribs to the factory attach angles, the flanges facing the spar on the second and third nose ribs under the wing doubler are NOT flush with the spar. If I clecoe the second and third nose ribs to the spar the holes now DO line up with the wing doubler, but the holes in the nose ribs do NOT line up with the factory attach angle! The fourth nose rib is fine. The first nose rib is a lost cause. So what I see as the common denominator is an extra layer of spar doubler for the first three inboard nose ribs. It is almost as if the first three nose ribs need to be made .046 inches shorter to accommodate the extra spar doubler. Am I making any sense?

Now I am starting to see a problem. Looking at the nose rib attach angles, the distance from the holes in the attach angle to the bend in the attach angle decreases going outboard to inboard to accomodate the additional layer of spar doubler. There is no change in the distance for the inboard most three attach angles appropriate for the final spar doubler. So now I wonder if I have a bad spar.

 

[Jetguy]

More Intel required. Which wing are we talking about? Right or Left! Just guessing it sounds like you may have the ribs upside down or not facing the right direction. Try clecoing the ribs to the Main spar first then see how they line up with the front stub spar assembly. Everything should line up or something is not right. Pictures may be required. John

 

[Gandalf]

More Intel required. Which wing are we talking about? Right or Left! Just guessing it sounds like you may have the ribs upside down or not facing the right direction. Try clecoing the ribs to the Main spar first then see how they line up with the front stub spar assembly. Everything should line up or something is not right. Pictures may be required. John

John... It is the left wing. I posted two pictures here:

http://www.geocities.com/jeff_louie/leftwingdoubler.htm

Thanks for looking,
Jeff

 

[N722SH]

Now I am starting to see a problem. Looking at the nose rib attach angles, the distance from the holes in the attach angle to the bend in the attach angle decreases going outboard to inboard to accomodate the additional layer of spar doubler. There is no change in the distance for the inboard most three attach angles appropriate for the final spar doubler. So now I wonder if I have a bad spar.

Gandalf,

The holes that attach the nose ribs to the attach angles on the spar(s) should all be in the same plane, i.e., all the same distance from the spar. The size of the attach angle, as you have noted, changes to account for the changing thickness of the spar doublers. After looking at your photos I checked my spars and found that the top of the holes in the angles in both spars (L & R) are approx. 1-inch above the first spar doubler (the long one directly next to the spar). If the top of the hole in the angle you question is not aligned with the holes in the other angles (not 1-inch above the spar doubler) then you probably have found a mistake on your spars.

Hope that answers your question.

Scott

 

[MartySantic]

Jeff,

I did not have any trouble with the wing doubler, although it does take a bit of force to pull it into position. I cleco'ed the row of holes on the bottom of the wing first and then wrapped the doubler around by cleco'ing the first row of holes on the top at the leading edge and then cleco moving row by row aft. You have to have the top and bottom skins cleco'ed/riveted before attaching the doubler.

A head on picture of the 4 wing ribs under the doubler might give us better information to diagnose your problem.

Have you checked hole alignment with the wing skin? Do the holes in the bottom inboard skin align with the ribs? If you lay the upper inboard wing skin on top of the ribs, do the holes align? My 2nd question, if you stand in front of the ribs, are the holes in the rib in line with one hole in the top of the spar? In either case, if the holes do not align, potentially you have the rib on the wrong side of the attach angle. Also ensure the correct rib is mounted (left vs. right). As I recall, one of the ribs under the doubler is of the opposite sex.

More (wider angle) pictures might help.

 

[Gandalf]

Gandalf,

The holes that attach the nose ribs to the attach angles on the spar(s) should all be in the same plane, i.e., all the same distance from the spar.

Hi Scott... OK, then there must be a mistake on my left spar . All of the holes on the nose rib attach angles are about 1 inch from the first spar doubler as you measured EXCEPT the inboard three nose rib attach angles that are about 1 4/32 inch from the spar. Now I am wondering what in the world I should do.

Jeff

 

[Gandalf]

A head on picture of the 4 wing ribs under the doubler might give us better information to diagnose your problem. Also ensure the correct rib is mounted (left vs. right). As I recall, one of the ribs under the doubler is of the opposite sex.

More (wider angle) pictures might help.

Hi Marty... It looks like I may have the wrong inboard three attach angles on my left wing . The holes on the three inboard attach angles are farther away from the spar than all of the holes in all of the other nose rib attach angles. The second nose rib is indeed the opposite sex!

Jeff

 

[JerryG150]

hmmm

Jeff ... please go back a few steps and be sure you have the proper ribs in the proper places ... left and right change in plans a lot (are not consistent in location on spar, all lefts and all right ribs don't sit side by side, kinda mixed according to plans). Also check your ribs with the plans to be sure they facing the right direction according to the plans. Did you grab the correct ribs, flange attached and flange-less and use in right location?

I had ribs facing the wrong way and upside down when clecoed and fortunately discovered problem before riveting. It's really really easy to error with all those ribs.

Get another set of eyes to check it out, a friend, neighbor etc.

I have 10 million pictures on my web site in my build log below, maybe one of them will give a clue to your problem. I hope so.

Feel free to private message me for my phone #. I'd be glad to possibly help over the phone.

GOOD LUCK!

Jerry

 

[Gandalf]

Get another set of eyes to check it out, a friend, neighbor etc.

I have 10 million pictures on my web site in my build log below, maybe one of them will give a clue to your problem.

Jerry.... Good idea. I chose to build a Vans aircraft partially because of all the RV repeat offenders at my airport so I am going to try to get another set of eyes on the wing. I have been spending a lot of time at your blog!

I added two wide angle views of the ribs online.

http://www.geocities.com/jeff_louie/leftwingdoubler.htm

Jeff

 

[Gandalf]

More (wider angle) pictures might help.

Marty... I added two wide angle pictures and a view showing how the holes on the left wing doubler do not line up with the spar. You may need to do a reload to see the updated pictures. Do you see anything wrong with the ribs?

Jeff

 

[jte65]

Wrong attach angles?

Jeff:

I have studied your pictures very carefully and compared with mine. The first 3 attach angles are supposed to be identical with holes very, very close to the bend (in fact, they are hard to rivet due to the closeness). The next 2 are identical to each other with holes further from the bend. In your pictures, it appears as though number 4 is identical to the first three and your first three do not look as "close" as mine were. I think that the first three must be incorrect (looks like the ones for #4 and 5 were also used for positions #1, 2, and 3). The amount you indicated the holes are off (1/8" if I recall) is pretty much equivalent to the thickness of the spar doubler that ends after the third attach angle so this would all add up. Based on your pictures, I think you have done everything correctly. Suggest calling Van's in the morning. Good luck.

 

[Mich48041]

Twisted Spar

I had trouble lining up the holes on the wing skin with ribs and spar on the innermost ribs. It appeared that the main spar was twisted slightly. So I made a tool out of wood similar to a monkey wrench or pipe wrench except that the handle was 3 or 4 feet long to give leverage. I hooked the tool over the top of the spar on the inboard side of the innermost ribs. I needed to twist the top of the spar about a 1/16 of an inch. I did it by pressing down on the end of the homemade wrench. The wing skins that were already riveted in place kept the whole spar from turning. I was able to align the holes and insert clecos and rivets.
Joe

 

[MartySantic]

Took Some Measurements

I took some measurements. This should tell you if the attach angles are in the correct positions. Look at the 4 ribs that lie under the left doubler. Measure distances between the rivet holes on the top of the rib nearest to the main spar. Ensure the 4 ribs are perpendicular to the spar. My center to center rivet measurements were as follows:

3 1/8" from the most inboard rib to the #2 rib (W-1208-L)
6 3/4" from the most inboard rib to the #3 rib (W-1208-R)
10 3/8" from the most inboard rib to the #4 rib (W-1208-R)

These should also be the distances between the holes in the doubler. You can also compare the distances in the doubler skin (spar hole to rib hole).

 

[MartySantic]

Looked more carefully at your pictures. It appears as though the ribs are sagging downward. Maybe all would come into alignment if the bottom skins and top skins were attached prior to trying to attach the doubler??

 

[Gandalf]

I took some measurements. This should tell you if the attach angles are in the correct positions. Look at the 4 ribs that lie under the left doubler. Measure distances between the rivet holes on the top of the rib nearest to the main spar. Ensure the 4 ribs are perpendicular to the spar. My center to center rivet measurements were as follows:

3 1/8" from the most inboard rib to the #2 rib (W-1208-L)
6 3/4" from the most inboard rib to the #3 rib (W-1208-R)
10 3/8" from the most inboard rib to the #4 rib (W-1208-R)

These should also be the distances between the holes in the doubler. You can also compare the distances in the doubler skin (spar hole to rib hole).

Hi Marty... Wow. Thanks for taking the time to do that. My measurements fall within 1/32 of your measurements. I was temporarily bummed out, but after talking to Scott at Vans, I am feeling a lot better.

Jeff

 

[Gandalf]

Jeff:

I have studied your pictures very carefully and compared with mine. The first 3 attach angles are supposed to be identical with holes very, very close to the bend (in fact, they are hard to rivet due to the closeness). The next 2 are identical to each other with holes further from the bend. In your pictures, it appears as though number 4 is identical to the first three and your first three do not look as "close" as mine were. I think that the first three must be incorrect (looks like the ones for #4 and 5 were also used for positions #1, 2, and 3). The amount you indicated the holes are off (1/8" if I recall) is pretty much equivalent to the thickness of the spar doubler that ends after the third attach angle so this would all add up. Based on your pictures, I think you have done everything correctly. Suggest calling Van's in the morning. Good luck.

jte... I appreciate your "second pair of eyes" on my problem. I took your advice and called Vans. They agree with you!

Jeff

 

[Gandalf]

I had trouble lining up the holes on the wing skin with ribs and spar on the innermost ribs. It appeared that the main spar was twisted slightly. So I made a tool out of wood similar to a monkey wrench or pipe wrench except that the handle was 3 or 4 feet long to give leverage. I hooked the tool over the top of the spar on the inboard side of the innermost ribs. I needed to twist the top of the spar about a 1/16 of an inch. I did it by pressing down on the end of the homemade wrench. The wing skins that were already riveted in place kept the whole spar from turning. I was able to align the holes and insert clecos and rivets.
Joe

Joe... Thanks for the tip. I called Vans and they think that I have the wrong attach angles.

Jeff

 

[Gandalf]

Suggest calling Van's in the morning. Good luck.

To everyone who helped me on this problem here is some follow up. Vans agrees that I have the wrong inboard attach angles on my left spar. Although I was bummed initially I am feeling much, much better after talking to Vans. They are going to make everything RIGHT. TOP NOTCH. They are going out of their way to fix my problem.

Jeff

 

[JerryG150]

good job ...

Jeff ... Glad to hear the good news. Looks like Van's came thru for you. Hope it all works out ... keep us informed how they reconcile the problem.

Good Luck
Jerry

 

[spriteah]

Jeff,

I feel for you. Reading through the post you can see that you are second guessing yourself again and again.

Keep your head up and it goes to show that there 'can' be errors in the kit!!!!

Jim
Australia.